I am not impressed with the quality of BOINC web pages, so I started working on making the pages XHTML 1.0 strict compatible. I made a nice progress, and sent my changes to David Anderson, the main developer of BOINC system so that the changes would be checked into CVS and made public.

But sadly, David responded:

Thanks for the diff,
but XHTML conformance is not a goal - I like being able to use <p> as a separator.

I got no response to continued attempt to persuade him that XHTML was good. I even suggested using <p /> as a separator if he wanted - it would still be a valid code and work as intended. No response.

Seeing that there is no other option to persuade David (and make use of my work), I ask you to sign a petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/bncxhtml/. Once we have enough signatures, I will send the link to David with hopes to succeed.

Sign the petition

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PrimeGrid Administrator / BOINC PHP coder

I don't know enough about either to have an opinion on this. Is there a visual aid for those of us who are HTML/Xhtml impaired?

I don't know enough about either to have an opinion on this. Is there a visual aid for those of us who are HTML/Xhtml impaired?

I second this...I respect your psoition as "PrimeGrid Administrator" but do not enough about the differences to sign anything. Is there a way for you to let us see the differences? Perhaps in a web page, showing one and then the other?

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I don't know enough about either to have an opinion on this. Is there a visual aid for those of us who are HTML/Xhtml impaired?

I second this...I respect your psoition as "PrimeGrid Administrator" but do not enough about the differences to sign anything. Is there a way for you to let us see the differences? Perhaps in a web page, showing one and then the other?

Good question: What is the significance of using "XHTML" compared to "HTML"?

Regards,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

On a whim, I submitted the home page to the W3C Markup Validation Service. It miserably failed even the HTML 4.01 Transitional standards, never mind the XHTML. The initial error is that the page doesn't even tell what version of HTML it's using, so a browser can interpret it correctly.

I copied this from the FAQ:

Why should I validate my HTML pages?

One of the important maxims of computer programming is: Be conservative in what you produce; be liberal in what you accept.

Browsers follow the second half of this maxim by accepting Web pages and trying to display them even if they're not legal HTML. Usually this means that the browser will try to make educated guesses about what you probably meant. The problem is that different browsers (or even different versions of the same browser) will make different guesses about the same illegal construct; worse, if your HTML is really pathological, the browser could get hopelessly confused and produce a mangled mess, or even crash.

That's why you want to follow the first half of the maxim by making sure your pages are legal HTML. The best way to do that is by running your documents through one or more HTML validators.

A lengthier answer to this question is also available on this site if the explanation above did not satisfy you.

[edit]to fix my own dratted code! lol[/edit]

MJ

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Hmmm, XHTML?

Well, Google gave this link to Wikipedia, and a fairly important quote is in my opinion this:

During October 2005 approximately 10% of web surfers were using browsers capable of rendering XHTML properly.

This should mean possible choises are:
1; Keep using HTML, reach 99% of possible BOINC-users.
2; Use both HTML and XHTML, is this possible? In any case, still only reach 99% of possible BOINC-users, and you'll use more resources on keeping both XHTML and HTML up-to-date.
3; Use only XHTML, risk 80% of potentially BOINC-users can't read the web-pages, and this again means they won't join a project...


Uhm, maybe overlooked something, but #3 looks to be a huge disadvantage for XHTML, so for BOINC that hopes to get more "normal" non-technical users to run one or more BOINC-projects, it's unlikely complicating matters with something like "install FireFox to correctly display web-pages" is the way to go...

So, it's likely better to try making the web-pages HTML-compatible, instead of trying for XHTML...

Hmmm, XHTML?
Well, Google gave this link to Wikipedia, and a fairly important quote is in my opinion this:

During October 2005 approximately 10% of web surfers were using browsers capable of rendering XHTML properly.

This should mean possible choises are:
1; Keep using HTML, reach 99% of possible BOINC-users.
2; Use both HTML and XHTML, is this possible? In any case, still only reach 99% of possible BOINC-users, and you'll use more resources on keeping both XHTML and HTML up-to-date.
3; Use only XHTML, risk 80% of potentially BOINC-users can't read the web-pages, and this again means they won't join a project...
Uhm, maybe overlooked something, but #3 looks to be a huge disadvantage for XHTML, so for BOINC that hopes to get more "normal" non-technical users to run one or more BOINC-projects, it's unlikely complicating matters with something like "install FireFox to correctly display web-pages" is the way to go...
So, it's likely better to try making the web-pages HTML-compatible, instead of trying for XHTML...

Well that seals it for me! I WILL NOT install a second webpage viewer on a machine of mine again!!! Been there, done that, didn't like the incompatabilities. Used Netscape, even when it was written by Sun, Opera, FireFox, there are several others. NONE are 100% compatable with everything that IE is! Why switch to something that does not ALWAYS work. That is like hiing someone to do a job and then finding out they can only do part of it so you have to bring in someone else to do what you thought the new person was going to do. The whole point of switching is to NEVER go back to IE! That is not possible, at this point in time. Boinc makes that change and I am outa here.
Guess I will not be signing the petition.

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I suppose XHTML is the way to go, but BOINC presumably has thght budget constraints and priorities.
Changing something that already works satisfactorily must be way way down on that list.
Even when someone like yourself does most of the work, there is the cost of future maintenance, not least the learning-curve of those who currently maintain and support the web pages.

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I know this has been addressed here many times before. It's kept this way for ease of use, personalization and compatability. I'm not going to go back and search thru hundreds of threads trying to find them but perhaps Matt, Rom or Rob would care to comment again? I'm guessing this petition post has been cross-posted in every project.

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me@rescam.org

Hmmm, XHTML?

Well, Google gave this link to Wikipedia, and a fairly important quote is in my opinion this:

During October 2005 approximately 10% of web surfers were using browsers capable of rendering XHTML properly.

This should mean possible choises are:
1; Keep using HTML, reach 99% of possible BOINC-users.
2; Use both HTML and XHTML, is this possible? In any case, still only reach 99% of possible BOINC-users, and you'll use more resources on keeping both XHTML and HTML up-to-date.
3; Use only XHTML, risk 80% of potentially BOINC-users can't read the web-pages, and this again means they won't join a project...


Uhm, maybe overlooked something, but #3 looks to be a huge disadvantage for XHTML, so for BOINC that hopes to get more "normal" non-technical users to run one or more BOINC-projects, it's unlikely complicating matters with something like "install FireFox to correctly display web-pages" is the way to go...

So, it's likely better to try making the web-pages HTML-compatible, instead of trying for XHTML...

that's one of the main issues at present, when XHTML is served correctly IE won't even display it, and as the vast majority of people don't even know about other browsers that's quite a problem

well serve it as HTML you say?
ah, that might work now, but when you come to serve it as XHMTL you'll run into many problems which will need major changes to the code again, so to save time and effort it's better to only recode to XHMTL once (the proper way) and as most users won't be able to use a fully XHTML compliant website, well, it's a bad idea!

also by just serving XHMTL as HTML the browser will parse it as HTML, which may cause it to enter "quirks" mode and render things horribly (IE does this more often than say firefox)
if XHTML is parsed as HTML the browser just thinks it's bad HTML with a few extra "/" characters here and there (plus a few other changes it may not understand)
so why bother with XHTML just yet if it makes no difference (and is actually harmful)?
you might as well use a language most browsers understand: HTML
and the best choice in HMTL is 4.01 strict

"but IE 7 will be released shortly"
yes, but it will have no support for XHMTL, microsoft is still getting IE to work properly with existing HTML and CSS (CSS is for styling) standards, let alone any NEW standards like XHTML


so i for one won't put pressure to enforce XHTML usage
just because it's the latest thing doens't mean it's the best, last time i checked HTML 4.01 strict was still a valid (and good) markup language for general use


as misfit says, this was discussed in depth quite a few times before
a more important issue is the differences between transtitional and strict, this will have more of an impact on performance, bandwidth and general usability than any differences between HTML and XHTML

and the web dev "team" are aiming for HTML 4.01 strict anyway, there's no point in trying to work against the flow here, there are many reasons HTML is still the better choice (mainly compatibility, both backwards and forwards)

for those of you not that familiar with web development, and wanting to "see" the differnces, well, when viewing a page in a browser you may not "see" and differences at all, the differences are in the code, which are the instructions to the browser on how to display the page and it's content, all "behind the scenes" stuff

it's the same with applications on your computer, if they were writen in a different programming language you probably wouldn't "see" and difference at all, it would all be changes to how things work behind the scenes, possibily making the code easier to maintain for the author

BUT... the difference it will have is on the reliability etc. of how a page is rendered, XHTML (when properly understood by the browser) is a more strict language, allowing for much fewer errors than HTML does (HTML code can be pretty bad and still work, but not with XHTML, your XHTML code will have to be pretty much entirely correct otherwise it won't work)
so the ideals behind XHTML are better, but as XHTML isn't widely supported it's not appropriate to use it for major sites (especially when the majority of users are using browsers that don't even render HTML properly, and don't even know what XHTML is!)


lets start with small steps by standardising the layout of the site, and making the existing code valid HTML 4.01 strict and using good CSS before venturing into anything experimental/developmental like XHTML

gotta walk before you can run

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"but IE 7 will be released shortly"

Immediately followed by at least 3 patches and a service pack to patch up all the holes in those. ;-)

Without having read too much about it, I wonder how come IE can read XML, but not XHTML?

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"but IE 7 will be released shortly"

Immediately followed by at least 3 patches and a service pack to patch up all the holes in those. ;-)

well exactly, so just use Firefox and you'll be fine :)

Without having read too much about it, I wonder how come IE can read XML, but not XHTML?

erm, hard to answer without getting technical, the main difference is that the XHTML standard is very explicit about what things can be done and how they have to be done, where as XML is a more general language based on just the ideals of the HTML markup style (basically you can make your own tags, and it's great for exchanging data for things like the DB exports for stats site, which are saved as XML files, because it's easier to write a program to read XML files than it is to make it read other formats, so it makes everything easier for stats sites :)), also CSS is quite independant of the markup language used, so you can style thing like RSS feeds using the existing CSS implmentation in a browser

basically XHTML needs more from the browser than XML does, and XHTML has more rules to follow etc.

like i said, hard to explain without getting technical but i hope i explained the gist so that it's sort of understandable :)

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"but IE 7 will be released shortly"

Immediately followed by at least 3 patches and a service pack to patch up all the holes in those. ;-)

well exactly, so just use Firefox and you'll be fine :)

Sorry, using Seamonkey, if only so all FF users out there can have a new FF to look forward to. :)

basically XHTML needs more from the browser than XML does, and XHTML has more rules to follow etc.

Less rules you mean, as it is a stricter form of HTML. Or more rules then to make sure the stricter form is being used?

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gotta walk before you can run

heh, it even took a long time to get that little red X to show up for IE users. :)

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me@rescam.org

basically XHTML needs more from the browser than XML does, and XHTML has more rules to follow etc.

Less rules you mean, as it is a stricter form of HTML. Or more rules then to make sure the stricter form is being used?

the later

now, to avoid any confusion i'll say now that if some sample of code doesn't conform to the spec, it isn't "less strict" XHTML, it's just not XHTML
the fact that there are strict and transitional versions is a seperate thing (which i can explain if someone's interested)

in a more explicit explanation, what i ment was:
more conditions need to be met to produce "compliant/valid" XHTML (according to the spec, otherwise it's invalid and the "unknowns/invalid bits" could mean anything, hence why standards are needed, eg, for anyone who knows (X)HTML, what does <fq> mean? see my point, iof everyone follows the standards then the meaning of everything is clear (as long as the spec is good), and that's the problem with HTML at the moment, "bad" html is allowed, and works, because browsers cope with it, although not very well and each produces a different result
so the idea of XHTML is that there's only one way of doing things, and if your XHTML code isn't valid, it won't work, which will get the web world back into a "standards orientated" mode)

more conditions to meet results in more rules to follow in order to produce compliant code

HTML had fewer rules/conditions and so "shortcuts" could be used, but one of the problems is that different implementations of the spec (different browsers) interpret these inexplicit shortcuts differently (because the standard doesn't cover all possibilities (which is a fault of the standard/spec, and so why XHTML was created, because it's far more specific/explicit about how things are to be done)

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gotta walk before you can run

heh, it even took a long time to get that little red X to show up for IE users. :)

well indeed, and that was because of bad code; firefox coped, IE didn't (the value of the "height" attribute for the image wasn't a numeric value (which it should have been) for some reason it was text lol

so i guess firefox just ignored it but IE, as usual, was dumb about it (although it was following the standard, and again, this is why standards are needed, so that behavour is consistent, and the meaning of the code is clear)

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Rytis, could you change the title of this thread to be more relavent to XHTML (so that other web dev folk know what it's actually about)

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gotta walk before you can run

heh, it even took a long time to get that little red X to show up for IE users. :)

well indeed, and that was because of bad code; firefox coped, IE didn't (the value of the "height" attribute for the image wasn't a numeric value (which it should have been) for some reason it was text lol

so i guess firefox just ignored it but IE, as usual, was dumb about it (although it was following the standard, and again, this is why standards are needed, so that behavour is consistent, and the meaning of the code is clear)

Yeah I remember. :) I have a web designer friend who has told me he needs his sites to ID the browser being used, mozilla - IE - netscape, so that it will use the correct code to get things to display the same way.

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me@rescam.org

so the idea of XHTML is that there's only one way of doing things, and if your XHTML code isn't valid, it won't work, which will get the web world back into a "standards orientated" mode)

OK, I can follow that.

But what if you write a page in good XHTML, will that page be seen as "bad" HTML by some browsers? Or will they just ignore the extra code and happily show HTML?

Question in mind being of course: Which browsers are good. Yes, FF and probably all Mozilla type browsers. But what about the "open source" versions of IE? (What's the name of that one?)

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I know this has been addressed here many times before. It's kept this way for ease of use, personalization and compatability. I'm not going to go back and search thru hundreds of threads trying to find them but perhaps Matt, Rom or Rob would care to comment again? I'm guessing this petition post has been cross-posted in every project.

It has been cross posted on every project I have visited today.

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BOINC WIKI