Well, I believe that one's body belongs to oneself...and any law opposing that premise violates that premise. I shouldn't need to be long winded given the premises involved. So I'll just say that since you belong to yourself, anything you wish or choose to put into your body is your own business.

Unitl you're forced to go out and do things to feed a nasty addiction...not necessarily cannabis, but other things...therein you logic is faulty. Your body is your own, but what your mind makes the body do to others is another matter entirely...just ask a heroin addict.

How is my logic faulty? I adhere to my main premise that a person's body belongs to oneself. It may be bad or good in the outcome, but that idea is not dependent upon your observations or conclusions. I merely posit that one's body is within one's realm of authority for decisions such as these things. I do not advocate use of drugs or excesses of wine or whatnot. What I DO ADVOCATE is the authority of the individual to choose these things for him/her self within the context of a free enviornment where the possible detriments of said behavior do not end up necessitating imposed obligations upon the otherwise well behaved neighbors.

I have to agree with DB on this one. What happenes when a person high on whatever goes out and accidentially kills someone while driving a car. Sure, i guess you can the right to do what you want to do with your own body, but when that right infringes on the rights of others, wellllll....

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

---

Kathryn :o)
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Well, I believe that one's body belongs to oneself...and any law opposing that premise violates that premise. I shouldn't need to be long winded given the premises involved. So I'll just say that since you belong to yourself, anything you wish or choose to put into your body is your own business.

Unitl you're forced to go out and do things to feed a nasty addiction...not necessarily cannabis, but other things...therein you logic is faulty. Your body is your own, but what your mind makes the body do to others is another matter entirely...just ask a heroin addict.

How is my logic faulty? I adhere to my main premise that a person's body belongs to oneself. It may be bad or good in the outcome, but that idea is not dependent upon your observations or conclusions. I merely posit that one's body is within one's realm of authority for decisions such as these things. I do not advocate use of drugs or excesses of wine or whatnot. What I DO ADVOCATE is the authority of the individual to choose these things for him/her self within the context of a free enviornment where the possible detriments of said behavior do not end up necessitating imposed obligations upon the otherwise well behaved neighbors.

I have to agree with DB on this one. What happenes when a person high on whatever goes out and accidentially kills someone while driving a car. Sure, i guess you can the right to do what you want to do with your own body, but when that right infringes on the rights of others, wellllll....

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

I understand your concerns, Kathy.

That sort of behavior is already illegal and should be punished. That sort of thing is already proscribed by law in the States and most western countries. I used to argue your side of this many years ago, but do not anymore because of the following 2 reasons:

1. It's their body and they own it

2. It doesn't work anyway

I know the 2nd point seems simplistic, but I hold the first point to be one that is of utmost importance.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Well, I believe that one's body belongs to oneself...and any law opposing that premise violates that premise. I shouldn't need to be long winded given the premises involved. So I'll just say that since you belong to yourself, anything you wish or choose to put into your body is your own business.

Unitl you're forced to go out and do things to feed a nasty addiction...not necessarily cannabis, but other things...therein you logic is faulty. Your body is your own, but what your mind makes the body do to others is another matter entirely...just ask a heroin addict.

How is my logic faulty? I adhere to my main premise that a person's body belongs to oneself. It may be bad or good in the outcome, but that idea is not dependent upon your observations or conclusions. I merely posit that one's body is within one's realm of authority for decisions such as these things. I do not advocate use of drugs or excesses of wine or whatnot. What I DO ADVOCATE is the authority of the individual to choose these things for him/her self within the context of a free enviornment where the possible detriments of said behavior do not end up necessitating imposed obligations upon the otherwise well behaved neighbors.

I have to agree with DB on this one. What happenes when a person high on whatever goes out and accidentially kills someone while driving a car. Sure, i guess you can the right to do what you want to do with your own body, but when that right infringes on the rights of others, wellllll....

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

I understand your concerns, Kathy.

That sort of behavior is already illegal and should be punished. That sort of thing is already proscribed by law in the States and most western countries. I used to argue your side of this many years ago, but do not anymore because of the following 2 reasons:

1. It's their body and they own it

2. It doesn't work anyway

I know the 2nd point seems simplistic, but I hold the first point to be one that is of utmost importance.

In the State of Nevada, and you are pulled over by the police and they suspect that you are reasonably considered to be under the influence of any drug or substance, you cannot refuse to take a test. If you refuse to take a test, they will take you down to the county hospital, hold you down, and draw your blood. It has pasted muster in the courts.

---

Account frozen...

Ya mon, I tried pot about 49,284 times man but like I didn't inhale eh.....

I'm hungry. Is anybody else hungry?

---

Reality Internet Personality

I'm hungry. Is anybody else hungry?

Oh ya I was hungry too! Forgot about that part, heheheheee.

I'm hungry. Is anybody else hungry?

Steak, Onion Rings and Lasagna for everyone!

---

PROUD TO BE TFFE!

I'm hungry. Is anybody else hungry?

Steak, Onion Rings and Lasagna for everyone!

I don't think I should associate with you people....I have a drug test this week. Mandatory. So i bid you 'adieu'!!!

-----freakin' bunch of hippies...lol

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I'm hungry.

Have some blow, that should nip it in the bud.

---

Sorrry I just couldn't help myself.

I have no problem with Cannabis, I do however have a problem with our youth who start on it and then they are exposed to harder drugs... I think thats the real
problem. I if was legal the the exposure to the criminal element would be reduced
to a minimim...

Great discussion we have going here guys - Thanks.

Remember that "Marijuana is a gateway drug" is a scare tactic used by governments and people generally against marijuana use. In fact, people are mistaking correlation for causation. Yes, people who smoke marijuana are more likely to move on to harder drugs, but that is because they are ALREADY the type of person who is more likely to try harder drugs. Smoking marijuana has no causal relationship with the use of harder drugs at all.

I agree with your comment about reducing exposure to the criminal element (mostly). In my experience, the majority of people involved in selling/growing pot are not involved (as far as I know) in the sale or production of any other drug. Obviously there are the greasy teenaged drug dealers out there who can sell you anything, but it's not too difficult, at least around here (BC), to find a supplier who is just your average everyday Joe/Jane seeling exclusively pot. In fact, the people I usually buy it from are a perfectly normal looking 60-something year old couple if you can believe it.

---

I'm hungry.

Have some blow, that should nip it in the bud.

Yikes.

---

I'm hungry.

Have some blow, that should nip it in the bud.

Yikes.

Oh, alright. ...Make it Speed, then.

---

Oooh. Fun rant!

I'm not keen on the government dictating what I do or do not put into (or on) my body.

Live and let live, as the sayin' goes. Life is NOT a right. It's a gift.

Education, not legislation, is the answer.

Hemp is a natural substance. It grows freely in my part of the world, or at least it DID. Why do you think they call it WEED? It was a cash crop here until it was criminalized. It's useful in a myriad of ways. It doesn't require fermentation or distillation. No ultra processing to make it a highly valuable commodity for a variety of industrial and personal applications. I believe the benefits outweigh the consequences.

If criminalization of addictive substances were at all effective - alcohol would STILL be illegal in this country. Kickin' back a cold one would land you in jail. Heck, it most likely wouldn't have made it into our collective knowledge 'cos it would have been done away with thousands of years ago.

Alcohol is legal and folks still drink 'shine. Go figure. Alcholics will drink mouthwash if nothin' else is available. Does that mean we should all be denied Listerine and rubbing alcohol?

I also believe that criminalization of any substance creates the crime that is then used to further villify said substance. Prohibition was testament to this.

People are responsible for themselves. That's a big enough job without tryin' to make everyone responsible for everyone else.

Everyone is different and responds to different substances in different ways. There is no "across the board" effect for cannabis.

And it should be said somewhere that not everyone that takes a drink becomes addicted to alcohol. Not everyone that smokes a joint is addicted to weed. Not everyone that smokes a cigarette becomes addicted to nicotine. Some folks can eat just one Lay's potato chip. Really! There are folks who can eat one bon bon, and then there are folks that feel compelled to consume the entire box.

Maybe we should just cull the bits of the population with an addictive or compulsive natures. Nip it in the bud, so to speak?

Addictive? Food is addictive. Must have it. Gotta have it. Want it, want it in different forms.. want it hot and tasty and varied. We don't need it, it's bad for us...If we were all content to eat twigs, berries and bugs - where on EARTH would Mcdonald's stockholders be? (Heart disease kills more folks than anything else in the US.) I'd ask Euell Gibbons, but he's dead.

Average folks abuse all SORTS of things in a variety of ways. Tobacco, alcohol .. easy targets. Heroin, cocaine, basement drugs .. easy targets. They are easy targets because the MAJORITY of folks don't engage in their use.

I'd lay odds that abuse of power probably kills more folks in today's world on a daily basis than anything else. Diseases like diptheria, cholera and viruses of all form and function...

One out of every two people to have ever walked the face of the earth throughout time have died of malaria. 50% of total human population. I'm quite sure that the number of folks that have died curled up in a corner of some dingy little crack house or opium den pale in comparison.

There'd be plenty of money for public health care if you took the tax dollars spent on the "war on drugs" and slapped a luxury tax on cannabis grown for individual (not industrial) use to fund it. If we don't want our government spendin' money on health care and education (and we DON'T from what I see).. uhm..

.. what do we want them spending money on? War? More IRS employees? Fences? Senator pensions? Expensive toilet seats? Legislation on your sex life?

Let's criminalize stress. It's a killer!

Video games are addictive. Soap operas are addictive. Caffeine is addictive. I live on it, I know. Shopping is addictive. Sex is addictive. Refined sugar is addictive (once upon a time folks kept their sugar stash under lock'n key). Plastic surgery is addictive.

Wealth is addictive. More folks in the world murder for money than anything else. Economic power. Luxury! Luxury is addictive. (I find myself overly addicted to hot water. The very thought of havin' to take a cold shower makes my skin crawl.) I just wouldn't want to live without toilet paper, you know? I might be reduced to some sort of criminal behavior myself if someone tried to take away my SALT. Oh god.. not my salt! People keel over day in and day out from high blood pressure and the like. But for cryin' out loud.. has anyone ever had grits without salt? ewww.

It's all relative.

I don't want the government in my belly, my lungs or my bedroom. One of these days folks are gonna realize that by lettin' Big bro in the front door they have, in effect, taken in the mother of all in-laws. And she'll never go away. Always lookin' over your shoulder tellin' you what to do and how to do it.

:)

Folks should spend more time playin' with their kids than pointin' fingers and stressin' over what others are doin in their lives. How many of you out there have personally had criminal acts committed against you by a heroin addict?

Do folks smack themselves everytime they give their kid a twinkie and say "bad parent! bad parent! Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass Go..."?

You can lead by example but not by edict. You can encourage folks to be responsible but you can't MAKE them be responsible. You can give them information but you can't make them process it or apply it with perfection or to your specification. We all do things we know aren't in our best interest at times. All of us. Me. You. Them. No one is immune to bouts of irresponsibility, it is not the domain of the drug/alcohol-addicted or self-absorbed. It's laughingly non-discriminatory.

If someone in Peoria wants to toast a blunt, I don't care. They wanna drink a beer, I don't care. They wanna deny themselves the joys of red meat, that's fine by me. They wanna have an abortion, I don't care. They wanna eat Oreos until their heart explodes, more power to'em. We're human beings and we seek out comfort and mental satisfaction where we can. We all make decisions based on what we want as individuals at the time we want it.

No governance on earth will change that.

Seems like folks are wishin so hard for OTHERS to be BOTS! The United States of Stepford.

I do care that I have the choice to do what I want to do with that one thing that's actually MINE. That bit of the earth that resides completely inside of my skin. My own private colony. Mine, mine, mine.

I've been in the passenger seat of cars with folks who can't drive and tune the radio. Or have a conversation. I once had a friend who often said "I can't drive". I wouldn't even let him drive his own car when we went places, but he drove himself to work every day. Scary. Very scary.

Perhaps only people who've a proven record of responsibility should be allowed to drive at all - and no one should even be considered for licensing until they're at least 21 years of age. Automobiles are deadly, but bein' able to get from point A to point B quickly is.. well, addictive. An imbecile behind the wheel is no less deadly than a drunk driver. Sleep deprivation and drivers are deadly. Should we dictate how many hours a night a body should be at rest? If someone falls asleep at the wheel and kills your cousin - or drives into your livingroom, would you fight for such legislation?

Someone causes a 17 car pileup while tryin' to eat a burrito on the road - do you outlaw Taco Bell?

Wanna nip 10 years offa your life? Try bein' a passenger when gettin on an Atlanta expressway, traffic movin' at 80 mph, with a driver that says "ooh, I'm afraid to merge".

Once you start dictating there's no end to things you can find to put the screws to.

Would there be no crime and no accidental death or health concerns if there were no heroin? No alcohol? No drugs? ha! Human beings are animals with minds of their own. Some good, some bad, some incredibly stupid. Maybe we should install a stupidity tax. Misery would still be abundant. Death would still be inevitable. Addictions would still be part of the human make-up. Accidents would still happen. The most accident prone individual I ever met was a double PhD (gone 10 years now - caused more traffic accidents than all the Kennedy's put together and was a tea-totaler).

No one wants a loved one to be addicted to the point of offense. No one wants loved ones to die at all. No one wants a loved one to be debilitated or become a drain on society. No one wants to converse with a drunk (mmm.. 'cept another drunk).

Cell phones are addictive. I was watchin' an episode of Cops the other night (a rare thing, mind you) and there was a 15 year old boy who'd accosted a young girl to steal her cell phone. No drugs involved.

I find it personally offensive to be subjected to the myriad of one-sided conversations people have in public places without regard for those around them. Should I call for legislation against publc use of cell phones?

We have a culture based on feedin' desire in this country. On instant gratification. There's a sense of entitlement to dictate to others. No one has the ability to save folks from themselves no matter how hard they try.. and I'm not so sure they should have the right to think that they can - it's a flawed premise.

There are so many things that "can" affect a person's ability to think clearly. Heck, some folks can't ever think clearly from the outset. At what point do human beings, overall, realize that all things cannot be controlled, that there will always be the outside chance that they won't be home for supper? That their child won't be home for supper? It's chance. It's luck of the draw. We can't save ourselves from death and disintegration no matter HOW HARD we try. It's a process that begins the moment we pop out of mom's colony.

I'm for legalization of ALL drugs. Make it a non-issue. Legalize it, tax it. Now THAT'S the American way! Focus all this attention elsewhere. Like education. Or frilly dresses for four year olds. Monsterously huge construction projects. Trips to Mars. Anything positive... It is, afterall.. what we do best in this country. Make money on the addictions of our population. Conspicuous consumption. Encouraging addictions on the left hand - slappin' them down with the right. Ostentatious consumerism.

Let's live up to our potential!

Keep askin' the government to micromanage our lives and then wonder why we don't have the resources to do what a good government should do. Expand and explore, reach for the stars, create happy populations of industrious, educated folks. Lead by example; not force, coercion, intimidation or legislation.

If this rant is utterly disjointed - it's because I kept gettin' up to fill my COFFEE CUP! I simply can't imagine life without it. It is my drug of choice. I do it every day. At times, to the exclusion of all other forms of nutrition. I'm thankful the majority of folks in the US share this proclivity - keeps me from havin' to buy my beans on the street corner.

Regarding personal experiences...

And from my own and that of those whom I've known in my 40++ years - pot, marijuana, weed, ganja - isn't psychologically nor physically addictive. I've smoked weed from all over the world grown in, no doubt, every way possible. Never have I seen anyone go over the edge or out on a limb for a "fix". Nor does it lead to harder drugs that I've seen. I've never known anyone to commit a crime in the name of reefer. (Well....... 'cept smoke it, that is!)

Addictive personalities don't need illegal drugs - anything'll do for'em. Gambling, shopping, pulling their eyelashes out, exercise, prescription drugs, self-righteousness, sex. I've known hundreds of pot smokers - but have only known one heroin addict. He also smoked cigarettes and drank coffee, but I don't recall him ever takin' a drink of alcohol. And he was gainfully employed. I didn't even know he "partook" of such things until 10 years after we were no longer in the same circles. He was an extremely stable and gifted individual. Who knew?

Regarding the comment about cannabis "probably causing schizophrenia" below - uhm, that's not the case. Research shows THC causes "transient schizophrenic-like symptoms" in subjects screened to possess a vulnerability to have the disease. The symptoms in these test subjects would last from 30 minutes to an hour. You know, like paranoia and the like. Schizophrenia is genetic. I don't care if your weed is grown in the backyard or a bucket.. It's not gonna send you to the rubber room - unless you are genetically predisposed to such things. If you are, if you have it lurking in you, or in your family - you should probably stay away from cannabis. It might (not will) increase your chances for onset.

I've yet to suffer from any form of psychosis. And I had a great-uncle who was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, so that might suggest it wouldn't be wise in my case - but thankfully, I'm beyond normal stages for the onset of such things. And I'm not smoking these days. I don't even have any prescription drugs.

Not unlike sayin.. if your daddy is an alcoholic, you probably shouldn't drink. Doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to take a drink, 'eh?

Ahh.. someone also said below "everyone moves from alcohol to weed". Not me, I'm not much of a drinker. I smoked weed before ever takin' a drink. It was the maternal unit's drug of choice.

Just tryin' to put to rest the "everyone does this" and "it always causes" kinda mentality I see peepin' through in the posts below!

Genetics are everything. Science is wonderful. Studies are studies, facts are mutable. In the late 70's early 80s.. it was proven that saccharin caused cancer in lab rats. I've been a saccharin user since, well, before birth. I never stopped. Even though I knew that if I were a lab rat, I might get cancer. I kept eatin' saccharin. Studies now show saccharin doesn't cause cancer in lab rats.

Yay! (Or should I say.. bummer! I'm not gonna be able to sue Sweet'n'Low!)

No one has ever been responsible for my health care. I've never killed nor maimed another individual. Other than the aforementioned smokin' of weed and being a leadfoot on the highway, I've never committed a crime of any sort. I've never caused an automobile accident. I've never drawn a dime of public money, or done anything at "the taxpayer's expense". I've never even filed an insurance claim (health or casualty), but I sure pay premiums. I pay my taxes and don't cheat on the returns. I stop for stop signs in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere. I pay school taxes for the education of the children of others, and that's fine. I'm happy to do it. It's part of being an American. I don't complain. I pay to support our troops even though I'm iffy on the deployment of our resources, our police, our firemen, our politicians and educators. I am, by all accounts, an average, upstanding, college educated, happy and stable member of society who'd prefer her tax dollars be spent in a more productive manner.

I'm NORML.

:)

---

"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."

Wow, that was one hell of a post Cayenne, heres a + just for writing it.

We have something in the UK called the readers digest, i'm sure they would pay you to print that :-)

---

Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Heh, Simonator, I had no idea it was so long. I did start with "rant" though - so I won't apologize for the "runonedness" of the thing. I type fast - faster than I think (or talk for that matter) - and well..

.. I'm high on caffeine. I consumed an entire pot of coffee whilst runnin' off at the fingertips. mmmmmm! the good stuff, too.

As for anyone payin' to print anything.. I don't think two cents would be worth the cost of cuttin' a check.

:P

Oh. FTR - my mom is closer to 70 than 60 - she's not in a rubber room and she suffers from no psychosis. She doesn't drink alcohol (never has) and never touched "harder" drugs.. and she'd still partake if the opportunity presented itself - but no longer seeks it out. (She doesn't drink coffee, either - I got that from my grandmother.) So I have no trouble believin' Jeff Hammer's "source". Mine were always ancient, too. Folks now in their 70s. I remember her tellin me how safe she felt transportin' the stuff cos "who'd stop a little old lady?".

Everyone's truth is different, isn't it!?

Something we should all bear in mind, methinks.

kiss kiss everybody!

---

"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."

You want to see paranoia, then talk to someone who has smoked maj for many years.

What!? Are you talking about us? Was it them that told you that!? Who told you that? Why are you saying this!? I don't know what you're talking about! That's the story and we're sticking to it. *checks home for secret wiretaps*

No need to apologise Cayenne, its the most interesting post on the board recently.

---

Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Cayenne, I agree with most of your comments in your post up there. I would presume you are probably a libertarian politically? Are you a member of NORML?

If you're a member of NORML (I'm not but am familiar with them) I generally agree with what they argue but disagree with their tactics in the sense that they don't tend to advocate their position from a moral point of view. They tend to argue the virtues of marijuana use and compare it to alcohol as being less dangerous. I think they'd be more successful arguing its legalization from a rights point of view.

---anyway, my 2 cents.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I have no problem with Cannabis, I do however have a problem with our youth who start on it and then they are exposed to harder drugs...

I can attest to that: it got me into nicotine.

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No need to apologise Cayenne, its the most interesting post on the board recently.

I found it most interesting and agreed with it in most part. That was a good posting.