Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL (#2)

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Message 1519123 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 11:46:50 UTC - in response to Message 1517611.  
Last modified: 21 May 2014, 11:47:40 UTC

... The Climate fO Denying 'is' gettin' betta all dA Time...

Sadly so. It's a whole new game of "social media" and big business propaganda.


Until the city fat cats get bitten with:

UK cities becoming mosquito-friendly habitats

... Warmer ambient temperatures and more water containers in gardens are bringing mosquitoes into closer contact with people...

... UK mosquitoes are human disease-free but the team says more of the insects breeding in urban areas increases the chances of a potential outbreak...




All on our only one planet,
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Message 1520318 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 17:44:13 UTC

Antarctic Glaciers Retreat Unstopable

A new study by researchers at NASA and the University of California, Irvine, finds a rapidly melting section of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet appears to be in an irreversible state of decline, with nothing to stop the glaciers in this area from melting into the sea.

The study presents multiple lines of evidence, incorporating 40 years of observations that indicate the glaciers in the Amundsen Sea sector of West Antarctica "have passed the point of no return," according to glaciologist and lead author Eric Rignot, of UC Irvine and NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. The new study has been accepted for publication in the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

These glaciers already contribute significantly to sea level rise, releasing almost as much ice into the ocean annually as the entire Greenland Ice Sheet. They contain enough ice to raise global sea level by 4 feet (1.2 meters) and are melting faster than most scientists had expected. Rignot said these findings will require an upward revision to current predictions of sea level rise.

"This sector will be a major contributor to sea level rise in the decades and centuries to come," Rignot said. "A conservative estimate is it could take several centuries for all of the ice to flow into the sea."

Three major lines of evidence point to the glaciers' eventual demise: the changes in their flow speeds, how much of each glacier floats on seawater, and the slope of the terrain they are flowing over and its depth below sea level. In a paper in April, Rignot's research group discussed the steadily increasing flow speeds of these glaciers over the past 40 years. This new study examines the other two lines of evidence.

The glaciers flow out from land to the ocean, with their leading edges afloat on the seawater. The point on a glacier where it first loses contact with land is called the grounding line. Nearly all glacier melt occurs on the underside of the glacier beyond the grounding line, on the section floating on seawater.

Just as a grounded boat can float again on shallow water if it is made lighter, a glacier can float over an area where it used to be grounded if it becomes lighter, which it does by melting or by the thinning effects of the glacier stretching out. The Antarctic glaciers studied by Rignot's group have thinned so much they are now floating above places where they used to sit solidly on land, which means their grounding lines are retreating inland.

"The grounding line is buried under a thousand or more meters of ice, so it is incredibly challenging for a human observer on the ice sheet surface to figure out exactly where the transition is," Rignot said. "This analysis is best done using satellite techniques."

The team used radar observations captured between 1992 and 2011 by the European Earth Remote Sensing (ERS-1 and -2) satellites to map the grounding lines' retreat inland. The satellites use a technique called radar interferometry, which enables scientists to measure very precisely -- within less than a quarter of an inch -- how much Earth's surface is moving. Glaciers move horizontally as they flow downstream, but their floating portions also rise and fall vertically with changes in the tides. Rignot and his team mapped how far inland these vertical motions extend to locate the grounding lines.

The accelerating flow speeds and retreating grounding lines reinforce each other. As glaciers flow faster, they stretch out and thin, which reduces their weight and lifts them farther off the bedrock. As the grounding line retreats and more of the glacier becomes waterborne, there's less resistance underneath, so the flow accelerates.

Slowing or stopping these changes requires pinning points -- bumps or hills rising from the glacier bed that snag the ice from underneath. To locate these points, researchers produced a more accurate map of bed elevation that combines ice velocity data from ERS-1 and -2 and ice thickness data from NASA's Operation IceBridge mission and other airborne campaigns. The results confirm no pinning points are present upstream of the present grounding lines in five of the six glaciers. Only Haynes Glacier has major bedrock obstructions upstream, but it drains a small sector and is retreating as rapidly as the other glaciers.

The bedrock topography is another key to the fate of the ice in this basin. All the glacier beds slope deeper below sea level as they extend farther inland. As the glaciers retreat, they cannot escape the reach of the ocean, and the warm water will keep melting them even more rapidly.

The accelerating flow rates, lack of pinning points and sloping bedrock all point to one conclusion, Rignot said.

"The collapse of this sector of West Antarctica appears to be unstoppable," he said. "The fact that the retreat is happening simultaneously over a large sector suggests it was triggered by a common cause, such as an increase in the amount of ocean heat beneath the floating sections of the glaciers. At this point, the end of this sector appears to be inevitable."

Because of the importance of this part of West Antarctica, NASA's Operation IceBridge will continue to monitor its evolution closely during this year's Antarctica deployment, which begins in October. IceBridge uses a specialized fleet of research aircraft carrying the most sophisticated suite of science instruments ever assembled to characterize changes in thickness of glaciers, ice sheets and sea ice.



http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-148

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-27381010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQMtb1Pd07E
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Message 1521727 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 1:28:33 UTC

Denying GOoD

On dA Vali dity of Kirch hoff 's law
at 2fOteen Elec tric Uni verse All 'bout Evi Dence

Da Grate Globe Warming Swin dle.
Me Likkeee deezs Scien tists

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1522376 - Posted: 29 May 2014, 12:55:49 UTC
Last modified: 29 May 2014, 12:58:00 UTC

Still a startling sad ongoing example of the grotesque profitable business of crassly deadly denial, and the people of the world be damned:


Can the tobacco industry shed its 'toxic brand'?

The UK tobacco industry has made billions of pounds and killed millions of people over the years but it is increasingly seeking to diversify by switching to e-cigarettes, which although addictive are less harmful.

Each year, more than six million customers of the tobacco industry around the world die from smoking. In the UK alone, 100,000 people lose their lives annually from the world's biggest cause of preventable death...

... "The future is about tobacco harm reduction. It's about providing a range of alternative nicotine products for consumers," says Kingsley Wheaton, BAT's director of corporate and regulatory affairs.

"We are indeed the problem. That is no reason for us not to be part of the solution," he adds. ... And though the tobacco industry insists it does not target children, every year 200,000 of those aged 11-15 start smoking.

I've spent nearly 40 years investigating how in the past the industry has dissembled and lied, refusing to accept the medical evidence.

That has changed and the industry now accepts that smoking causes a range of serious, terminal diseases, but only after decades of unrelenting pressure from governments and concerned health groups.

As a result, its ability to market cigarettes has been severely restricted. And for an industry under constant attack, it is in remarkable health, with eye-watering profits of more than £30bn a year...



And the 'lobbying' cynically continues:


'Resist urge to control e-cigarettes', WHO told

... Supporters of e-cigarettes, who argue the products are a low-risk substitute for smoking, fear they might become subject to reduction targets and advertising bans.

There has been a big growth in the market for e-cigarettes, but the Department of Health says they are not risk-free...




Death and destruction be damned in the 'game' of 'business-with-no-morals' and really the mythical 'noone' is responsible?...

And a similar arrogance of Marketing and Denial is cynically pushed by certain parts of the Fossil Fuels regardless of how blatantly obvious the reality of pollution might be...

Beyond belief!

And all to soon that will all be beyond our continued comfortable existence...


Simply, we cannot allow the Fossil Fuels Denial Machine to be anythign like as successful as the Tobacco Denial has been. An awful lot more is at deadly stake, and sooner...


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1526858 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 13:22:51 UTC - in response to Message 1522389.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2014, 13:23:21 UTC

... For the first time researchers could prove that Antarctic ice sheet, contributed to rapid rise in sea levels some odd 14,500 years ago, known as melt water pulse 1 A. An eminent paleoclimatologist, Dr. Peter Clark, an Oregon State University has commented, “During that time, the sea level on a global basis rose about 50 feet in just 350 years – or about 20 times faster than sea level rise over the last century.”

http://phillysportsreport.com/science-27/antarctic-ice-sheets-are-shrinking-much-before-thought-239.html

Appears to be natural.

Agreed, completely a natural series of events from the effects of warming as can be expected from increased CO2 in our atmosphere.

Except, the NOW which is thousands of years later and many thousands of years too soon and too fast for "nature natural" is that our industrial fossil fuels pollution is increasing the CO2 in our large but very finite atmosphere.

We can even directly measure the proportion of CO2 in our atmosphere that is naturally there vs the industrial CO2 that we are vastly adding...


We are the polluters due to our greedy bad practices.

There are cleaner better ways...

Continue to deny that?

All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1526862 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 13:32:38 UTC - in response to Message 1522376.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2014, 13:35:31 UTC

... Death and destruction be damned in the 'game' of 'business-with-no-morals' and really the mythical 'noone' is responsible?...

And a similar arrogance of Marketing and Denial is cynically pushed by certain parts of the Fossil Fuels regardless of how blatantly obvious the reality of pollution might be...

Beyond belief!

And all to soon that will all be beyond our continued comfortable existence...


Simply, we cannot allow the Fossil Fuels Denial Machine to be anythign like as successful as the Tobacco Denial has been. An awful lot more is at deadly stake, and sooner...

And the parallel cynical deadly denial continues still:

Ministers urged to speed up plain cigarettes plans

The government is being urged to speed up plans to ban branded cigarette packets, with campaigners warning "time is running out"...

... More than 600 medical professionals have written to the British Medical Journal calling on ministers to publish draft regulations as soon as possible.

... "no excuse for any further delay".

Ministers agreed, in principle, to introduce plain cigarette packaging earlier this year after an independent report concluded it was "very likely to have a positive impact" on public health and stop children from starting to smoke...

... ministers were avoiding setting a timetable for banning branded cigarette packets despite "overwhelming evidence" that the move would benefit public health...



Sounds just like the story for our fossil fuels climate pollution: "time is running out", "no excuse for any further delay", "very likely to have a ... impact", "ministers ... avoiding setting a timetable ... despite 'overwhelming evidence'"...

Except for our climate, we've already had Dirty Fossil Fuels sponsored decades of procrastination and denial... All until we procrastinate and delay into critically too late?...


All a game of financial 'lobbying'?


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1526871 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 14:13:52 UTC - in response to Message 1526863.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2014, 14:14:28 UTC

... The Article showed the Scientific Consensus that the Antarctic melting has been consistent over the past 14,000 years, was wrong. The melting, in the past, was faster (almost 350% faster) than the present.

Continue to deny that?

Not at all and that is the point...

What we are unleashing is a tipping point that has greater consequence than had been first imagined. And it has happened and is completely likely to happen again when given the push.

Our present day dirty industrial activity is giving that push...

This is where industry has to come clean, and much more quickly.


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1526918 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 16:56:11 UTC - in response to Message 1526887.  

You can answer that by asking what the CO-2 concentration level was during that long-ago time of rapid melting and then asking what caused the CO-2 to rise or what else is the reason for the past rapid sea rise.
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Message 1526953 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 18:17:10 UTC - in response to Message 1526918.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2014, 18:23:10 UTC

You can answer that by asking what the CO-2 concentration level was during that long-ago time of rapid melting and then asking what caused the CO-2 to rise or what else is the reason for the past rapid sea rise.

As mentioned previously: The CO2 concentration acts as positive feedback to AMPLIFY other warming events to cause things to get warmer to a greater degree.

So... Increasing the CO2 concentration turns up the amplification factor which itself in effect turns up the heat...

So you can have all your natural cycles. Increasing the CO2 gives whatever cycle a boost. Or in our case if the increase in concentration is great enough and rapid enough, we create our own whole new unnatural cycle...


As noted next:

All on our only one planet,
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Message 1526956 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 18:21:33 UTC - in response to Message 1526944.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2014, 18:23:31 UTC

... the natural Earth's 'Wobble' also causes Climate Change (changes the poles angle towards The Sun).

The following is a list of co2 PPM in the atmosphere.

1820 - 440ppm
1840 - 320ppm
1880 - 290ppm
1920 - 325ppm
1940 - 440ppm
Present - 380ppm

I personally find the co2 obsessive's to be simplistic, and many are motivated by political and ideological reasons.

You've got your numbers scrambled for that random list...

More reliably, take a look at:

Wikipedia: Carbon Dioxide 400kyr




Note the natural cycles...

Note how we have spiked them with our dirty fossils hanging on from the early days of our industrial revolution...


We now have much cleaner ways we can live AND still enjoy clean high tech...

All on our only one planet,
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Message 1526965 - Posted: 11 Jun 2014, 18:37:52 UTC - in response to Message 1526944.  

Thank you Clyde,

A truly rational post
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Message 1527292 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 15:53:13 UTC

Hello ... best wishes ... and thank you all for your posts in this Thread :-) ... to: CLYDE, Jullie, William Rothamel, Batter Up. KWSN - MajorKong, annie, ES99, Intelligent Design,

WinterKnight, ML1 (aka Martin), The Simonator, Dull ... [[[ ... aka ... too long of a Name to post ... :-) ...]]] ....... and everyone in our SETI@home community :-)

be kind and gentle to one another ... and ... God Bless, all you all :)

I'm 74 years old :-)

Good morning ... or Good afternoon ... or Good evining ... as the case may be :) ... to all in our SETI@home community,

where ever you happen ... to be on our only home .....

tiny little planet Earth :)

I hope you all had or will have a wonderful Day

Best Wishes
Byron
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Planet Earth :)



the following quote is from NASA

Climate change: How do we know it is caused by humans and really happen ?

The Earth's climate has changed throughout history. Just in the last 650,000 years there have been seven cycles of glacial advance and retreat,

with the abrupt end of the last ice age about 7,000 years ago marking the beginning of the modern climate era — and of human civilization.

Most of these climate changes are attributed to very small variations in Earth’s orbit that change the amount of solar energy our planet receives.

The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is very likely human-induced and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented in the past 1,300 years

Earth-orbiting satellites and other technological advances have enabled scientists to see the big picture,

collecting many different types of information about our planet and its climate on a global scale.

Studying these climate data collected over many years reveal the signals of a changing climate
.



This graph, based on the comparison of atmospheric samples

contained in ice cores and more recent direct measurements,

provides evidence that atmospheric CO2 has increased

since the Industrial Revolution.


    Certain facts about Earth's climate are not in dispute:

    1)

    The heat-trapping nature of carbon dioxide and other gases was demonstrated in the mid-19th century.

    2)

    Their ability to affect the transfer of infrared

    energy through the atmosphere is the scientific basis of many instruments flown

    by NASA. Increased levels of greenhouse gases must cause the Earth to warm in response.

    Ice cores drawn from Greenland, Antarctica, and tropical mountain glaciers

    show that the Earth’s climate responds to changes in solar output, in the

    Earth’s orbit, and in greenhouse gas levels. They also show that in the past,

    large changes in climate have happened very quickly, geologically-speaking: in

    tens of years, not in millions or even thousands.

    3)

    Scientific Consensus

    Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends

    over the past century are due to human activities, and most of the

    leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements

    endorsing this position. The evidence for rapid climate change is compelling



the above quote is from NASA


Good morning ... or Good Night ... or Good afternoon ... to all in our SETI@home community,

where ever you happen ... to be on our only home ..... tiny little planet Earth :)

be kind and gentle to one another ... and ... God Bless, all you all :)

I hope you all had or will have a wonderful Day

Best Wishes
Byron
Vancouver
Canada
Planet Earth :)


be kind and gentle to one another ... and ... God Bless, all you all :)
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Message 1527341 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 17:04:21 UTC

So from the graph I conclude that previous ice cap and glacial melting had nothing to do with CO-2 concentration levels.

Perhaps someone can explain why they think that it does now.
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Message 1527347 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 17:12:46 UTC

Hi Byron, good to see you:)
rOZZ
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Message 1527357 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 17:25:06 UTC - in response to Message 1527347.  

Hi Byron, good to see you:)


It is isn't it :)
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Message 1527413 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 18:51:57 UTC - in response to Message 1527341.  
Last modified: 12 Jun 2014, 18:52:41 UTC

Very good example and summary from Byron, thanks!


So from the graph I conclude that previous ice cap and glacial melting had nothing to do with CO-2 concentration levels.

Partially...


Perhaps someone can explain why they think that it does now.

We've got a few years of threads for that... And yet the story and mechanisms remain the same...


For another attempt, in brief:

For the past 650,000 years, the arrangement of land and ocean has enabled a more stable climate than for earlier history.

There is a natural cycle where multiple natural effects come to coincide once every many thousands of years to push the climate into glaciation.

Once we are suffering the cold of glaciers, CO2 increases due to natural causes until there is a heat trapping tipping point from that CO2 increase that then causes the climate to warm and then to melt the glaciers. As the glaciers retreat, life reasserts itself and the CO2 is steadily reduced.

All very natural and that operates over 100 000 years or so...

Note how it is the natural rise of CO2 that causes the planet to warm up despite the cold reflective ice reflecting most of the sun's heat away...


What we have now is a radical rapid increase in CO2 even though we are no where near the natural glacial cycle. That CO2 has been directly measured to be from the chimneys of our industry.

We know that increasing the CO2 smothers our planet in extra heat-trapping effects. That then leads to extreme weather and climate change.

And we see all that happening all around us on an ever more regular basis...


Feel the heat?

The most silly thing about all this is that we already have clean technology for our power needs. Except that it is the dirty polluting fossil fuels 'interests' that are corruptly in power at the moment...


All on our only one ever more polluted planet,
Martin
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Message 1527511 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 22:24:57 UTC - in response to Message 1526918.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but the carbon cycle of the oceans are 500 years, correct?

My question is what happened 500 years ago that over loaded our oceans with CO-2?

...and why we are being blamed for that.
Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick...
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Message 1527528 - Posted: 12 Jun 2014, 22:51:12 UTC - in response to Message 1527511.  
Last modified: 12 Jun 2014, 22:53:03 UTC

Correct me if I'm wrong but the carbon cycle of the oceans are 500 years, correct?

My question is what happened 500 years ago that over loaded our oceans with CO-2?...

Sorry, not heard of that one... If you would care to give further details and links to some real world evidence...


All DENIALS continued on:

Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL (#3)

Continuing denial for the sake of denial and profit?...


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL (#2)


 
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