HAHA, how "Republican" of ya, Clinton becoming a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford == "fled the country." Now what did "5 Deferment" Cheney & "AWOL" Bush & Rumsfeld & Ashcroft & "Anal Cyst Deferment" Limbaugh etc do with their "quality time" when they weren't serving?

And how much coke (or rum & coke) was Dumbya Bush snorting when Clinton "wasn't inhaling" at Oxford? Of course by then Laura had already run over and killed someone, whereas the worst you can claim of Bill & Hillary is they were "tree-huggin' anti-war liberals." I also find it funny that when the Dems show an actual war veteran candidate, all of a sudden the Repukes screech "who cares if they were actually veterans?" But Dumbya's dad can be touted ad infinitum as a war hero, where from all I've seen is he left his guys to die while he got to safety. But then you're probably the type who gladly disgraced the military by wearing "Purple Heart bandaids" at the RNC, eh?

> > Having been the young man in uniform that had the bucket of blood poured
> on my
> > Dress Blues by some slut at the University of Berkeley I know the
> truth
> > of that encounter.
>
> Gee, well if that really happened to you I'm amazed it didn't make the right
> or left-wing press. And where is the "University of Berkeley", is that
> "Cal-Berkeley" (home of SETI & BOINC :-) or another institution?
There were many protests going on at that time. Do you think you'd hear about every single one? If you dont even know how our university system is set up here then no wonder you never heard of it. There are UC's which are University of California and CSU's which are California State University. Berkeley is in the UC system. It would be quicker for you if you just used your internet connection to look up things like this for yourself.

> And
> where exactly were you that a chick from Berkeley just happened to have a
> bucket of blood to dump on you? On an abbatoir tour group? It's a great
> anecdote, do you have any actual evidence? A SETI-aware group should know
> Carl Sagan's famous phrase -- "extraordinary claims require extraordinary
> evidence."
So unless he provides proof you think he's lying? I guess using your logic the stories of PETA pooring paint on people wearing fur coats is a load of BS too. From now on when reading your posts I'll do so with your logic and consider you lying unless you have undisputable proof.

> You're starting to sound like that psycho Republican in Virginia that every 4
> years claims "evil hordes of liberals" descend on him & his family and
> tear up their George Bush signs etc. Here's this years bogus installment --
> an "evil liberal" snatched a Bush banner from his infant daughter's hands and
> made her cry:
Hmmm... so now he's a psycho and you're a crackpot psychiatrist? How does relating a story make one a psycho?

> HAHA, how "Republican" of ya, Clinton becoming a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford ==
> "fled the country." Now what did "5 Deferment" Cheney & "AWOL" Bush &
> Rumsfeld & Ashcroft & "Anal Cyst Deferment" Limbaugh etc do with their
> "quality time" when they weren't serving?
>
Oh I get you now. You get upset by any little thing that could possibly show the republicans in a positive light, even indirectly? Well I just hate to disappoint you but I'm not a republican.

> But then you're probably the type who gladly
> disgraced the military by wearing "Purple Heart bandaids" at the RNC, eh?
>
Unless you'd like to see this thread turn into a flame war you can keep your nonsensical insults to yourself.

> And how much coke (or rum & coke) was Dumbya Bush snorting when Clinton
> "wasn't inhaling" at Oxford? Of course by then Laura had already run over and
> killed someone, whereas the worst you can claim of Bill & Hillary is they
> were "tree-huggin' anti-war liberals." I also find it funny that when the
> Dems show an actual war veteran candidate, all of a sudden the Repukes screech
> "who cares if they were actually veterans?" But Dumbya's dad can be touted ad
> infinitum as a war hero, where from all I've seen is he left his guys to die
> while he got to safety. But then you're probably the type who gladly
> disgraced the military by wearing "Purple Heart bandaids" at the RNC, eh?
>
You also forgot to list DEMOCRAT Ted Kennedy who if he had been "an average joe" wouldve been tried and convicted of Manslaughter. Can you spell Chappaquiddick?

You're really getting desparate "Misfit", i.e. your "independent" (yeah right) view that Clinton "fled service" but thousands of chicken-hawks didn't. And at least Bill went to Oxford, what did Dumbya & Cheney & the assorted scumbags do other than try to rip-off people and make a dirty buck? I suppose you'll have to call for a "liberation" of the UK soon! ;-)

And Teddy Kennedy gets flamed about Chappaquiddick all the time, whereas Laura Bush really has gotten away with murder. The more I hear stupid deluded Americans like yourself pontificate on Internet boards (you know, the dopes that point out the motes in "Dem" eyes while ignoring the huge beams in "Repuke" eyes), the happier I am I moved to a sane country.

And what was Dumbya Bush's "great accomplishments", that make Kerry's seem so bad? That he drove a bunch of businesses to bankruptcy? That he was bailed out by old family ties again and again?

> You're really getting desparate "Misfit", i.e. your "independent" (yeah right)
I know how I'm registered. If you know otherwise then prove it, liar.

> The more I hear stupid deluded
> Americans like yourself pontificate on Internet boards
"Stupid deluded Americans" Hmmm an awfully RACIST thing to say. Prove it, Liar.

> (you know, the dopes
> that point out the motes in "Dem" eyes while ignoring the huge beams in
> "Repuke" eyes), the happier I am I moved to a sane country.
Prove it, Liar.

The only thing you've proved to me so far is that no matter how long I argue with a brick wall, in the end, its still a brick wall.

> And what was Dumbya Bush's "great accomplishments", that make Kerry's seem so
> bad? That he drove a bunch of businesses to bankruptcy? That he was bailed
> out by old family ties again and again?
>
>
>
If youre so happy to be in the UK then how come you are NOT pontificating about Tony Blair?

> I know how I'm registered. If you know otherwise then prove it, liar.

Sure, you sound like those twits that claim they're "independent" or "Libertarian" yet all they do is post, like you, pro-Bush/pro-RepugliKKKan tripe over and over and over.

> > The more I hear stupid deluded
> > Americans like yourself pontificate on Internet boards
> "Stupid deluded Americans" Hmmm an awfully RACIST thing to say. Prove it,
> Liar.

HAHAHA, so "Americans" are a race now? So as an American, I can't talk about the "stupid deluded Americans" that believe all the Bushco/right-wing drivel? It's funny you hypocrites don't care about racism when it REALLY IS racism!

> > (you know, the dopes
> > that point out the motes in "Dem" eyes while ignoring the huge beams in
> > "Repuke" eyes), the happier I am I moved to a sane country.
> Prove it, Liar.

Your many lame posts whingeing about Kerry & Ted Kennedy & Clinton but ignoring murderess Laura & Dumbya Bush, and the other neocon scumbags speaks volumes of your "independence."

> If youre so happy to be in the UK then how come you are pontificating about
> Tony Blair?

errr, what are you talking about? where have I "pontificated about Tony Blair?" Or as you would so limply and repetively say "prove it, liar!" ;-)
I think Tony Blair is basically alright -- his biggest error was in believing the babble from the uber-right-wing psychos in the USA.

well I dunno, every actual pilot I've known (military and/or commercial) loved to fly and I've never heard of a lackluster one such as Dumbya who wouldn't even go to his flight physical. And sure Kerry hasn't seem to have done anything exciting, but then again Bush sure in hell didn't (unless you consider being the #1 death-row governor an accomplishment). And the Bush klan has a proven track record of failure on terrorism (unless you count "supporting terrorism"), and about the only "uniting" he's done is getting the world to hate the US.

> > I know how I'm registered. If you know otherwise then prove it, liar.
>
> Sure, you sound like those twits that claim they're "independent" or
> "Libertarian" yet all they do is post, like you, pro-Bush/pro-RepugliKKKan
> tripe over and over and over.
Really? Post a link here where I said Bush was a great guy? Cant find one? How about a good guy? An OK guy? YOu read what you want to read no matter whats typed.

>
> > > The more I hear stupid deluded
> > > Americans like yourself pontificate on Internet boards
> > "Stupid deluded Americans" Hmmm an awfully RACIST thing to say. Prove
> it,
> > Liar.
>
> HAHAHA, so "Americans" are a race now? So as an American, I can't talk about
> the "stupid deluded Americans" that believe all the Bushco/right-wing drivel?
AN american? IN this present day what makes you think your an American? After you left, say how glad you are that you left, and say how we are stupid deluded americans are you saying you are still an american? What kind of oxymoronic crap is that?

> It's funny you hypocrites don't care about racism when it REALLY IS racism!
>
> > > (you know, the dopes
> > > that point out the motes in "Dem" eyes while ignoring the huge beams
> in
> > > "Repuke" eyes), the happier I am I moved to a sane country.
> > Prove it, Liar.
>
> Your many lame posts whingeing about Kerry & Ted Kennedy & Clinton but
> ignoring murderess Laura & Dumbya Bush, and the other neocon scumbags
> speaks volumes of your "independence."
That proves you moved to a sane country? Are you really an adult? How much education do you have? I dont know of any educated adult that uses the word "lame" over and over again. Are you experiencing a midlife crisis and dream of a second childhood?

> > If youre so happy to be in the UK then how come you are pontificating
> about
> > Tony Blair?
>
> errr, what are you talking about? where have I "pontificated about Tony
> Blair?" Or as you would so limply and repetively say "prove it, liar!" ;-)
> I think Tony Blair is basically alright -- his biggest error was in believing
> the babble from the uber-right-wing psychos in the USA.
>
>
OOps! My typo. That shouldve read are NOT.
As for "prove it liar" that comes from here. Slow down and read more carefully, I was using my example of your logic.

> Your many lame posts whingeing about Kerry & Ted Kennedy & Clinton but
> ignoring murderess Laura & Dumbya Bush, and the other neocon scumbags
> speaks volumes of your "independence."
>
So what youre saying is that to be an independant youre not allowed to like either candidate? If I choose one above the other thats called Freedom of Choice. Youre ASSUMING I'm voting for Bush. Go back and read every post I've written. Not once have I said I'm voting for either Bush or Kerry, nor have I encouraged anyone to vote for either candidate. I'll rebut what others say for the purpose of debate.

Are these allegations real ???

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

Misfit, your many posts screeching about the evils of Theresa Kerry (!) speak volumes, not to mention your apologism for Faux News as "Independent." No "Independent" (and only the kookiest Republicans) gives a rat's ass about Theresa. Again, your "independence" is as transparent as the many "Libertarians" that may pay token lip-service occasionally to "legalize marijuana" or whatever, but 99.999% of the time they are just Republicans. With perhaps a slight aversion to the kookier, religious fanatics in their party. Like this hilarious Repub campaign to paint "liberals" as "banning bibles":

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/32-09172004-367618.html

As for the "prove it" -- somebody posted an anecdote about a "slut" from the "University of Berkeley" (I've never heard Cal-Berkeley called that) "dumping buckets of blood." It sounds like yet another urban legend of the "evil hippies spit on Vietnam Vets" variety, so I asked for more information; and of course you went off the deep-end for this simple request.

> History shows, that all nations/empires that ever tried to take on this task
> (rather: conquest), eventually suffered utter annihilation themself in the
> end, despite employing superior assets and technology all along.
>
> IMHO, the more wars are raged on this planet, caused by individual
> governments' beliefs as to what is right/wrong by supressing other
> cultures/nations with military force, the closer we creep towards a World War
> III type scenario.

After reading these threads with much interest and not participating, the phrase "right/wrong" creeps in, and I have to put in my 2 cents (let the rambling begin). For I feel they are the key words, and unfortunately have little relevance in the political world even though that is where they perhaps have the greatest need. So perhaps we have to deal with them in a simpler, mure humanist sense, at a personal level.

Yes, nations/empires come and go. Victims of their own greed and quest for ultimate power and blinded by their own political and/or religious beliefs, preventing them from seeing the true nature of what is going on around them and from valueing what is truely important.

And, IMO, what is truely important is not the respect of another countries borders, or of another governments "right" to self-determination, or another cultures "right" to live it's chosen path, or another religions "right" to follow it's doctrines if the execution of those rights trod on the more basic human rights of another group.

And, it is for that reason that I agree with the invasion of Iraq and ousting of Hussein. I may not agree with the stated reasons for the attack or with some of the flawed logic behind it, it all being shrouded in political dogma, but I believe behind all the political bull that the base reason for that exercise is that it was done for the betterment of the people of Iraq and the world. And yes, that includes the people of the United States.

I'm Canadian, and yes, if the States were to invade my country I'd be pissed. But it would have been done for no moral gain in that case, only for the furtherment of their own power base.

But the same can not be said for what has occurred in Iraq. The human suffering that has occurred in that country at the hands of it's former dictator and government, and the human suffering that has and is occurring at the hands of the various religious factions who claim to be Muslims but who any true Muslim will tell you are not following the ways of Islam, is immense. Those that yielded power in that country are nothing short of mass murderers, killing Kurds and other ethnic minorities by the tens of thousands and maintaining their power over the common people through terror, torturing and killing whoever may even seem to dare to disagree.

Bringing an end to this reign of terror is the "right" thing to do, no less than it was the "right" thing to do to bring an end to Hitlers reign of terror over Europe. Even in that case, maybe some of the reasoning was flawed, maybe some of the decisions that were made in the way the Allies carved up Europe we would disagree with, but in the end a greater good was still being served to humanity by those actions than would have been done if Hitler had been allowed to run his course.

And this is where I find difficulty with the recent arguments of Europe vs. America morality on these boards. Although I agree with much of what Petit Soleil has to say in his remarks (and in fact look forward to them immensely), I cannot share his view about Europe having an enlightened and superior outlook on world events, nor can I say that about my own Canadian government. I find it more like an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand trying to ignore what is going on, or the ever popular "politically correct" actions of saying nothing so you don't offend - or doing nothing because it's none of your business.

So, which is the "right" thing to do - stand by and watch tens of thousands of innocent people die, and millions of other people live out their lives miserably and filled with fear, or is the "right" thing to do to step in and rid those people of the mass murderers they have in charge of their country?

I find much of America's international dealings to be that of a self-protectionist bully, but IMO in the majority of cases when something of THIS magnitude raises itself, that the United States actions have done more good on a humanitarian level than the political hot air escaping from the mouths of Canadian and European politicians and activists. For these politicians and activists seem to have more respect for other political and religious organizations "right" to self-determination than they do for the rights of the people being down-trodden by those same organizations.

IMO, the actions of the Canadian and many of the European governments is akin to a bystander watching a woman being raped and doing nothing about it for fear of recrimination.