Ask any business student what nearly every failed concern has in common and they'll tell you it's failure to meet the needs of its clients. There are no two ways about it, we are their clients NOT the other way around. This doesn't mean that we should expect them to kiss butt. But this relationship does require a certain level of communication from the projects devs.

I agree that I would rather have them dedicate a lion's share of their time to the minutia of the project. I also understand Wendy's point about the difficulties involved in knowing specifically what would constitute satisfactory frequency and content of any communications. I'll wager, however, that most people would be satisfied with a regular, low-tech, update explaining what's being gained by the use of our cycles. I do not expect that they dedicate funding to pay an individual to monitor the boards even part time. None the less, timely responses to legitimate issues would be a simple and free way to maintain good will between the project and its contributers.

Think of it this way. If I were an purely financial investor in these projects, investing funds to purchase hardware or hire personnel, and was asking for an update, the scientists would have to be past moronic to blow me off. I am an investor in that I dedicate free cycles and in that I pay for those cycles with my own money. To be told that I don't deserve a little feedback regarding the benefits my investment is netting (or isn't netting as of yet) is ludicrous and insulting. It's as if I'm being told, "We're the smart scientists and you are...?" It smacks of pomposity.

Any relationship necessitates an obligation by both parties.

Jim

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Without love, breath is just a clock ... ticking.
Equilibrium

Paul's problem, like many here, is he wanted to be part of the inner circle, one of the leaders. I see so many join and immediately want to take charge, to have the ear of the devs, so they can feel important. What is really needed are lots of followers. They really only need our computers not us. I never really liked Paul, he was one of the first to ask to have one of my posts deleted. Now he is leaving because he feels no one is paying enough attention to him. He took on a task no one asked him to and wanted to be one of the top dogs because of it. Sorry Paul if you want to be top dog start your own project, don't try to hijack one(or more).

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

Paul's problem, like many here, is he wanted to be part of the inner circle, one of the leaders. I see so many join and immediately want to take charge, to have the ear of the devs, so they can feel important. What is really needed are lots of followers. They really only need our computers not us. I never really liked Paul, he was one of the first to ask to have one of my posts deleted. Now he is leaving because he feels no one is paying enough attention to him. He took on a task no one asked him to and wanted to be one of the top dogs because of it. Sorry Paul if you want to be top dog start your own project, don't try to hijack one(or more).

Now let's see what happens now. I bet you get "minused" for telling your true feelings. Even if your probably 100% right on what you wrote.

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Join BOINC United now!

Ask any business student what nearly every failed concern has in common and they'll tell you it's failure to meet the needs of its clients.

I don't think that we crunchers should be regarded as clients to be served in business terms.

The typical cruncher cares about the science of the project he participates in; the typical Seti cruncher, for example, wants to know if ETI exists, or is convinced that it exists and wants to prove it.

So I see the success of Seti as coming from the fact that people want to be part of and do the science, and also want the result of the science - so your "payment" of CPU cycles actually becomes part of the "product" you receive(!)

I find the only meaningful way of defining the relationship between crunchers and BOINC projects to be a symbiosis, closer to organic systems than to economic ones.

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"Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?"

Think of it this way. If I were an purely financial investor in these projects, investing funds to purchase hardware or hire personnel, and was asking for an update, the scientists would have to be past moronic to blow me off. I am an investor in that I dedicate free cycles and in that I pay for those cycles with my own money. To be told that I don't deserve a little feedback regarding the benefits my investment is netting (or isn't netting as of yet) is ludicrous and insulting. It's as if I'm being told, "We're the smart scientists and you are...?" It smacks of pomposity.

First, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, Paul was not ignored. There is a difference between being ignored and actively filtered, and it appears that Paul was clearly treated badly by one or more projects.

I like the use of your term "free cycles" because that is why these projects exist, so for most of us, the "investment" is near zero.

Before we get too excited we need to remember that.

So, we're taking the time to load up some software and from that point on we really don't much of a demand on our time -- our participation is passive.

Then again, how much news is there? We're crunching, and so far, there haven't been any interesting signals.

I crunch SETI, Einstein, LHC, SETI Beta and BOINC Alpha. Of those five, I can't tell you when I last visited the websites for Einstein, LHC or beta. I think I've at least looked at the homepage sometime this year. I think I browsed the LHC forums just a bit looking for rumors of work.

I don't feel like I'm being "blown off" by the projects -- it is the opposite. Even if they were going to great effort to communicate with me, I'm ignoring half of the places that are "paying" for my unused clocks.

Your mileage may vary.

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Now let's see what happens now. I bet you get "minused" for telling your true feelings. Even if your probably 100% right on what you wrote.

I'll confess, I minused that post. Not because of the feelings expressed, but because he presented his opinion on Paul's motivation as fact:

Now he is leaving because he feels no one is paying enough attention to him. He took on a task no one asked him to and wanted to be one of the top dogs because of it.

MJ

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Paul's problem, like many here, is he wanted to be part of the inner circle, one of the leaders. I see so many join and immediately want to take charge, to have the ear of the devs, so they can feel important. What is really needed are lots of followers. They really only need our computers not us. I never really liked Paul, he was one of the first to ask to have one of my posts deleted. Now he is leaving because he feels no one is paying enough attention to him. He took on a task no one asked him to and wanted to be one of the top dogs because of it. Sorry Paul if you want to be top dog start your own project, don't try to hijack one(or more).

I will not speak ill of Paul. Whatever his motivations, he has contributed far more than most.

There are many people who have made "suggestions" over the time I've been here, and some of them have been really good. It still takes someone's time to do what needs to be done, and even good suggestions may be stuck in the queue for years.

... unless the person making the suggestion wants to also tackle the implementation.

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I'll confess, I minused that post. Not because of the feelings expressed, but because he presented his opinion on Paul's motivation as fact:
[quote]Now he is leaving because he feels no one is paying enough attention to him. He took on a task no one asked him to and wanted to be one of the top dogs because of it.

MJ

Well as i see it David is right about the point that nobody asked Paul to do what he did with the Wiki.

I'm sure it was/is a great help to people and helps solving a lot of questions.

Anyhow i can only speak of what i've seen on S@H never looked at the other projects because i don't care about them(no interest), i had my differences with Paul too.
Especially regarding his proposals and him thinking that the devs. have nothing else to do than to convert his wishes right into c++ code and release the app 30 mins. after his proposal.

Believe me they got better things to do (i know it , take a look at S@H Enhanced... should have been public allready but they're still fixing bugs!) than doing what one man wishes.

So my conclusion is that what we've seen here is what happens if one doesn't have a real life or nothing else to spend his time with.

EDIT

Now minus my post. Hope to get over -200 ;)

/EDIT

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It was bound to happen. Sadly I fear that PDB didn't realise the reasons for his (unnecessary) dissatisfaction.

Far too many people seem to think that they are part of the BOINC project, or that because they're donating their CPU cycles, that the project developers owe them something, or that they have some right to demand features or functionality.

Many even seem to think that the projects have in some way failed because they don't issue them with work or accept results for a few hours or days. Then participants whine and complain that they've run out of work - where did it ever say there would always or even usually be work? In fact BOINC is specifically designed to find other work to do when there's no work from out favorite project. (Not to mention that with properly set cache and project shares you'd never yet have run out anyway).

For every participant that has some sort of problem (often percieved rather than real) with BOINC, there are a hundred for whom it works perfectly. We're past the early testing stages when we all needed to hold each other's hands - it's now perfectly sensible to say to problem participants that they're just a bleeding nuiscence and their contribution unncecessary to the project - to go away and get a decent system and configure it properly, even learn some basic computer skills.

From the Developers view, they get their science done, they have no greater wish - there's no need to try and pander to the demands of a few.

As a long time SETI cruncher, once I thought I was more than a tiny drop-in-the-ocean and that I had smarter ideas than the developers. I couldn't understand why things were done this way or that way.
I couldn't understand why we didn't get daily Technical News and regular newsletters, regular posts here in the forum - and it frustrated me madly....

Then I realised, this isn't a Stone Soup project. There is a small tigntly-knit team who make their own plans and decisions - it's not a democracy. Moreover, they only need the terms or their grants to be met, and I doubt those include 'particpant satisfaction'.
If even only 75% of the participants who would run BOINC do without moaning, the other 25% can take a hike without unduly hurting the science.

The point is, there just is nothing to get knickers-in-a-twist about, BOINC works, the developers have their own ideas how it goes forward, and that is what we'll get.

You do have some control though, run BOINC or don't run BOINC. If you run BOINC you have control over which projects you join - if you think you're due more, all I can advise is: Adjust your expectations or be frustrated.

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Well, I will not guess about Paul's motivations. From my few discussions with him (not rarely in disagreement), I can only believe that he has always had the best of intentions.

However, I do find it very interesting that (even though I know he crunched for them and posted on their forum) there is no trace of Paul D. Buck at Predictor@home. His ID is no longer there and the stats sites do not report him there anymore either. I can only wonder why his account would have been removed???

Well, I will not guess about Paul's motivations. From my few discussions with him (not rarely in disagreement), I can only believe that he has always had the best of intentions.

However, I do find it very interesting that (even though I know he crunched for them and posted on their forum) there is no trace of Paul D. Buck at Predictor@home. His ID is no longer there and the stats sites do not report him there anymore either. I can only wonder why his account would have been removed???

I found PDB Ok. And his 227 posts still exist.

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As an end user of a free to use project, one of the things that matters to me is that the project may achieve its end goal. I really does help if a project gives the impression that their crunching community needs regular updates and acknowledges problems and issues. Something Predictor is failing to do. But no project exists to satisfy an elite core of people.
I, like most participants, simply switch the machines on and trust that the science being done and the wu crunched will contribute to a success.
The politics of the implementation of a project is something I cannot be bothered with. This project and the others have those people who like to sound more important than they are and there are those who are more valuable than the seem.

Its sad to see PDB leave.....but the project will go on and his efforts will help others.

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... Its sad to see PDB leave.....but the project will go on and his efforts will help others.

I hope that he can recover and recharge and return to the fun to continue his help.

Its all in what view you take and its all a state of mind... ;-)

Happy crunchin',
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

As an end user of a free to use project, one of the things that matters to me is that the project may achieve its end goal.

That's absolutely right and who else is more in charge on deciding of what is more important to the project than the devs. themselves ? If'you can't live with
the the way the priority is set, then leave (and i guess/know now that the credit system is way down the list of what needs to be done to get the science app. working right.)

I really does help if a project gives the impression that their crunching community needs regular updates and acknowledges problems and issues. Something Predictor is failing to do. But no project exists to satisfy an elite core of people.

That's true and feedback of the devs is needed more than you could imagine, While i look @ S@H enhanced it changed in the last month an more info was relaesed of what is happening and why ;)

Its sad to see PDB leave.....but the project will go on and his efforts will help others.

Sure, his work will be apreciated by lots of people and will be countinued.

Anyhow the whole navigation on the Wiki needs a major redesign. It's sometimes very confusing and unclearly in structure.

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Join BOINC United now!

Anyhow the whole navigation on the Wiki needs a major redesign. It's sometimes very confusing and unclearly in structure.

well, that's mostly up to the wiki designers (the wiki is a standard package, but can be customised)

maybe paul needs to take the usual advice of "chill out" and not make such a fuss
regulars on the boards are always encouraging people to be less childish, and to be blunt, i feel that this is exactly the kind of behaviour that paul is exhibiting, but i'm in no position to judge, it's his decision, and as said, no-one asked him to run the wiki, he did so of his own accord, and he has the right to no longer accept that responcibility

he could have left us all high and dry, not allowing anyone access to the wiki content source files, but he was good enough to give notice, and allow the needed files to be downloaded so that others may continue the effort

there are 2 sides to every story

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Want to search the BOINC Wiki, BOINCstats, or various BOINC forums from within firefox? Try the BOINC related Firefox Search Engines

I find this sad in what started as a discussion that it becomes a personal attack.

I know that the only Offical Documentation for most of the projects exists in BOINC Wiki... That was derived by his efforts... and silent emails that we do not know about...

I also know that as I hit a 4.45 BUG (yes you all have it) with Long Term Debt that Paul was first on the Scene Publically and in private emails...

So to guess at what has been lost? Or just say that the Users should all be called "Cattle" ready for the slaughter... The Dev's do not care about "Users" that has been discussed and it is a FACT... I have often asked what would have happened if Seti "kept" ALL 5.4 million user that QUIT?
Or what went wrong?
Or where would distributed computing be now?

David Anderson had a Brilliant Idea! But Users do matter! Pauls documents make a difference... They help Users to help Users... Google brings in new users everyday... Who is helping those Users? It is not David Anderson, it is not Matt L., it is not Rom, Eric is now being more attentive in Beta... It is the Users that Live here that are helping Users... Paul was one of those Users that went to go make a "difference!"

Scrape as I put the Soapbox away...

Pappa

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Now let's see what happens now. I bet you get "minused" for telling your true feelings. Even if your probably 100% right on what you wrote.

I'll confess, I minused that post. Not because of the feelings expressed, but because he presented his opinion on Paul's motivation as fact:

Now he is leaving because he feels no one is paying enough attention to him. He took on a task no one asked him to and wanted to be one of the top dogs because of it.

MJ

I am sorry that you don't realize that every word in every post on these boards is in fact "only opinion". Every word in my post is "ONLY MY OPINION"
And in fact I admitted to a slight bias against Paul in my original post in the interest of fairness.
I refuse to continually restate the obvious

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

I am sorry that you don't realize that every word in every post on these boards is in fact "only opinion". Every word in my post is "ONLY MY OPINION"

Sure, it's "only opinion". A post that information on the outage can be found on the technical news page is "only opinion". Paul saying that he will be closing the Wiki site is "only opinion". Anything Matt L. posts is "only opinion". Statistics are "only opinion".

Bull, and a dodge to let you post whatever BS you choose, without needing to take responsibility for accuracy. Particularly when attributing something to someone else. I read and post here to gain and share information. If all you have is unsupported opinion, I don't need to read it, and since you've now told me how worthless your posts are, I probably won't.

MJ

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I feel the goal of SETI is being totally ignored by management and users.

We are self obsessed with numbers and hardware.

For example go to the Seti@home mainpage and try to find statistics on results. Under technical news I can find out that the fiber channel went down and how many disk arrays we are using. Under Science Newsletters, I was happy to find out that the most recent article in a year discusses realtime processing (another Boinc project maybe??). The news section of the mainpage adds to my confusion by encouraging me to look into other boinc projects.

I currently own the largest private collection of results. I have been posting starmaps of these results on the World Wide Seti forums for a year now. I know this is not much, but it is more than we are getting from the project itself.

So! If we are not analyzing this data at all... why are we running around like ants collecting it's results? Why can't the SETI team just turn up the sensitivity for each WU and have us process a WU in 30 hours NOW? I am turning out a WU every 10 minutes on my Dual Xeon box. The overhead associated with turning out 140 results a day is at least 140 files on the project server, for one of my computers! Compare this to just 2 files a day if the work units took longer than 24 hours.

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Overclock with the MSI G31M3-L and Intel E8600 3.33Ghz
Intel D865GLC Socket 478 Motherboard
~How To Overclock The Eee ASUS 1005HA Netbook To 1.9Ghz~

Reuben,

I agree with much of what you say. Why not come join us at the SETI Beta site and help test the new, more sensitive science app you were speaking of? I myself have found it rewarding in that I once again feel like I'm a part of the science and future of SETI@home, rather than mindlessly crunching away on what sometimes seem like leftover table scraps. I know that in truth this is not what's happening, but it does feel that way at times.

http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/beta/

Your Dual Xeon box would be most welcome and appreciated there!

Dig