Therefore it is a fact that you are much more likely to be killed or injured by one of your own citizens with a gun or rifle than by any outside group.

I don't believe I qualified madmen seeking martyrdom by any distinction of origin. A madman is a madman, treat the illness or execute them, that is the only answer.

I will continue to 'cling to my Bible and my Guns' as my President suggests. If anyone wishes to think gun laws or gun free zones make them safe, I will not attempt to dissuade them. That's the way natural selection works.

A French police official confirming two suicide attacks and one bombing near the Stade de France stadium.
At least 15 people were killed at the Bataclan concert hall in central Paris.
Between 60 and 100 people are reportedly being held hostage at the Bataclan arts centre.
How do you feel safe in such situations even if you have an own gun?
If one in the hostage where about to shoot to defend himself that person would be most likely be dead by now!
You cannot protect yourself with a handgun against suicide bombers and persons with automatic weapons.

Ah, you don't understand the fantasy that every one of those hostages has a gun. The person with the automatic weapon would be so full of holes from all those hostages that he would only be able to hit a scant handful of hostages before his insides were splattered on the wall.

+1
In addition, if there is the possibility that every hostage is trained and armed, the terrorists might not be so quick to do something like this. There is a difference between slaughtering sheep and wolves.

4 attackers were killed in the theater, 3 were wearing explosive belts, how would a gun do any good here? If a bullet were to hit the explosives, the shock wave could kill people, just like a grenade does, since an explosion is not all that an explosive makes. Yes I've thrown a live grenade, so I do know what I'm talking about, I was a US Army Sharpshooter and I have the medal and honorable discharge(DD214) to prove it.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Ah, you don't understand the fantasy that every one of those hostages has a gun. The person with the automatic weapon would be so full of holes from all those hostages that he would only be able to hit a scant handful of hostages before his insides were splattered on the wall.

+1
In addition, if there is the possibility that every hostage is trained and armed, the terrorists might not be so quick to do something like this. There is a difference between slaughtering sheep and wolves.

The problem with your supposition is that, as you said, a madman is a madman. Given a world where everyone has a gun and is trained to use them, what do you think would be a madman's next step toward achieving their goal of martyrdom? And I should hope you're more than intelligent enough to avoid suggesting that it would make it more difficult to achieve their goals for a lack of creativity in their approach.

I was saddened to see how little time it took you to come in here spraying your NRA propaganda :-(

Sorry to disagree with you Wiggo, but the fact is no one in the world is safe. This has again been proven 1 hour ago. There are not enough police to protect everyone. We are all responsible for our own protection.

Paris will be a disaster of unbelievable proportion.

As long as madmen seeking martyrdom exist there will be horrific attacks on human life. Our collective governments insist we are safe and the security is well in hand, unfortunately for what will possibly be more than 100 innocents that lie will not help them.

Be constantly vigilant and protect your life and those you love.

In darkness a gun of any type is worse than useless, you can't hit, what you can't see, I speak from experience and training in the US Army, a guy with a bomb can kill you and that guy doesn't need to see you, just hear you breathe, if the explosion doesn't get you, the blast wave will make you drown on your own blood as your lungs fill up with blood from burst capillaries in your lungs,unless you happen to have about a foot of concrete or something as dense and most people don't/can't carry blast barriers, this happened with WWII German stick grenades if you were within a 5 foot radius, same thing applies to a bomb, only thing is the blast and the pressure wave radius from the bomb blast is bigger.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

I agree the timing of my original post was probably in poor taste and I regret and apologize for it. My views on the Second and all the Amendments, and the Constitution are well known, as are those of opposing view. I will not change my views nor do I expect anyone else to change theirs unless it is their free decision. To debate this further is pointless.

No further posts on the subject, signing off this thread.

'Bye.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

Your apology is a gracious one, Sir. My comment was not intended to result in you signing off from this thread. Perhaps you would reconsider?

You said:

Paris will be a disaster of unbelievable proportion.

It would be interesting to learn if your reasons for thinking so, are similar to mine, but perhaps this is not the best thread, or quite the right time for that.


@CLYDE

A handful of armed patrons. May, or may not, have reduced the total number of innocent victims murdered.

It is better to 'Go Down Fighting for Your Life'. Then to cower in fear, awaiting your death, as many regarding this Subject, believe is Superior.

Your opening statement suggests you are referring to the Paris incident. Is that also the context within which you framed your second? :-[

A handful of armed patrons. May, or may not, have reduced the total number of innocent victims murdered.

However... It is better to 'Go Down Fighting for Your Life'. Then to cower in fear, awaiting your death, as many regarding this Subject, believe is Superior.

Fighting in complete darkness without night vision gear with a gun, against someone who has a bomb, how would you do this?

Hmm?

It's not a matter of giving up, you just have an unwinnable argument, the guy with a bomb in the dark will always win, they don't need to aim, just push or release a button, it's as simple as that. A gun can be fired in the dark, any fool can do that, but can you see what you are aiming at?

I was a trained Army Sharpshooter, I have the dog tags, Honorable Discharge/DD214 and medal to go along with it, I know better, a civvy knows nothing on this... I was trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint, I could hit anything moving or not within 600m(660yds), with 1 shot or 3 shots, right or left handed, if someone didn't move and they were at 1198m, I could hit them there too, you'd be dead if you were in My cross-hairs, if you were the enemy or had shot at Me or My buddies... I didn't miss.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

It's not a matter of giving up, you just have an unwinnable argument, the guy with a bomb in the dark will always win...

Unlike the ignorant, or worse...

Been there - many times. Done that - many times. Survived. Along with others.

Cower in fear, awaiting your death. While praying that someone, anyone. Has a gun. Giving yourself, your children, your..., a chance for life.

What do you believe the terrified Paris murder victims were hoping and praying for, at the time?

You? Your 'Drop Dead' Ideology?

Question is?

It's pitch dark, so how would you try and fight back, smarty pants, HOW?

I've at least had military training, have you?

You don't have access to a grenade, and most likely any training for that matter, makes Me an expert on the subject here.

I do have US Army training, but since I am not in the military anymore, I do not have any grenades, as civilians are not allowed by Federal Law to have them.

During qualifying, I saw one person violently pulled down behind a concrete barrier by a Drill Sargeant, a few seconds later the grenade went BOOM, the grenade was only a few feet beyond the barrier and being a fragmentation grenade(pineapple), it would have beheaded the person in question, He didn't throw the grenade properly, Me I qualified, but then I paid attention.

I don't have any ideology or children, so can it.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Every army person gets trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint.

Not true!
Not even in Britain.

The reason not to train with live grenades is because it's very dangerous and meaningless.
Been there. Done that.

The only troops that train this is AFAIK troopers and special forces.

Suicide Bombers are now according to CNN using dead-man switches in some cases, kill the terrorist, bomb goes BOOM.

Though nothing has been said if the 7 dead suicide bombers were equipped with such switches or not.

@ Chris S, Civvies generally know very little of this, they have no training or even experience in military matters.

If you do and I can't read your mind, please, go ahead, everyone is listening...

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Every army person gets trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint.

Not true!
Not even in Britain.

The reason not to train with live grenades is because it's very dangerous and meaningless.
Been there. Done that.

In the US Army every soldier gets such training, as they can be pressed into service as infantry if needed, even if they are a specialist or even a cook. That's why the military here calls training, Basic Training, this includes crawling under barbed wire in the mud or dirt, wearing a gas mask and walking thru a covered area filled with tear gas with a gas mask on(in and out of the covered area) and then repeating this without a mask on and walking back thru(in and out again), while not running or one will be forced to endure the tear gas again, or live weapons(firearms) training, etc.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Every army person gets trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint.

Not true!
Not even in Britain.

The reason not to train with live grenades is because it's very dangerous and meaningless.
Been there. Done that.

In the US Army every soldier gets such training, as they can be pressed into service as infantry if needed, even if they are a specialist or even a cook. That's why the military here calls training, Basic Training, this includes crawling under barbed wire in the mud or dirt, wearing a gas mask and walking thru a covered area filled with tear gas with a gas mask on(in and out of the covered area) and then repeating this without a mask on and walking back thru(in and out again), while not running or one will be forced to endure the tear gas again, or live weapons(firearms) training, etc.

Sometimes special units have to do that when the trainers are shooting live rounds just above your ass.
But that Basic Training/Bootcamp is only needed if you are in the infantry as a private.

It's not a matter of giving up, you just have an unwinnable argument,

That is a fatalistic viewpoint. And quite what your personal experiences were in the army have to do with it I'm not quite sure. Every army person gets trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint. Every person gets a 214

I know better, a civvy knows nothing on this...

What was so special about you?

The guy mentioned using a gun against a bomber, so without setting off a bomb and provided you could see well enough to shoot, you would shoot at the head, it's the only clear target, any other location could have explosives underneath the clothing, a bullet could make those explosives go BOOM, to detonate, which would kill the bomber and depending on the amount of explosives, whoever shoots at the bomber or even anyone that is near enough to be killed by either the blast or the shock wave made by the blast and some bombers are equipped with dead-man switches, kill the bomber, bomb goes boom.

Oh and a head shot is very difficult to do, We were told not to try that, to aim at the body, it's a bigger area to hit, I was very good at that, even though what I was shooting at was a bit blurry, I was an ambidextrous sharpshooter, if it moved or not and was within 600 meters(660 yards), I could hit it, I didn't miss(we used real NATO spec bullets, not blanks), but then I went to the shooting range almost everyday, as did others and I was told what I was shooting at didn't shoot back, which is quite true. We were trained to KILL, 1 or 3 shots, in semi-automatic mode, automatic mode is only 3 shots at a time, or the magazine will empty real fast, yes I qualified to use an M16 rifle in both modes, I am one step short of the expert level, though I was very close to that level.

Today forget it, I have no interest and My body is not in shape to use a rifle, nor am I interested, since a rifle has to be maintained, to be kept free of rust and dirt, it's not worth My time and yes I was trained in how to do this task, We were told 'your weapon, is your life'.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Every army person gets trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint.

Not true!
Not even in Britain.

The reason not to train with live grenades is because it's very dangerous and meaningless.
Been there. Done that.

In the US Army every soldier gets such training, as they can be pressed into service as infantry if needed, even if they are a specialist or even a cook. That's why the military here calls training, Basic Training, this includes crawling under barbed wire in the mud or dirt, wearing a gas mask and walking thru a covered area filled with tear gas with a gas mask on(in and out of the covered area) and then repeating this without a mask on and walking back thru(in and out again), while not running or one will be forced to endure the tear gas again, or live weapons(firearms) training, etc.

Sometimes special units have to do that when the trainers are shooting live rounds just above your ass.
But that Basic Training/Bootcamp is only needed if you are in the infantry as a private.

In the US Army or the Marines or the Navy or the Air Force, everyone who is enlisted goes thru Basic Training, everyone, no one skips this. I can't comment on Officer training. I only know of the training for the Army and to a small extent to the Marines.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Every army person gets trained to use a live grenade and camouflage facepaint.

Not true!
Not even in Britain.

The reason not to train with live grenades is because it's very dangerous and meaningless.
Been there. Done that.

In the US Army every soldier gets such training, as they can be pressed into service as infantry if needed, even if they are a specialist or even a cook. That's why the military here calls training, Basic Training, this includes crawling under barbed wire in the mud or dirt, wearing a gas mask and walking thru a covered area filled with tear gas with a gas mask on(in and out of the covered area) and then repeating this without a mask on and walking back thru(in and out again), while not running or one will be forced to endure the tear gas again, or live weapons(firearms) training, etc.

Sometimes special units have to do that when the trainers are shooting live rounds just above your ass.
But that Basic Training/Bootcamp is only needed if you are in the infantry as a private.

In the US Army or the Marines or the Navy or the Air Force, everyone who is enlisted goes thru Basic Training, everyone, no one skips this. I can't comment on Officer training. I only know of the training for the Army and to a small extent to the Marines.

There is difference.
Until 10 years ago had both Sweden and Finland had a conscription army.
All male had to do this service for about one year.
I was in the Signal Corps trained to also use a submachine gun, RPG and grenades.
But training with live ammo was restricted to the submachine gun.

Sleeping in a tent in the winter as well. Brrrr...

Military EXPERT said:

...Civvies generally know very little of this, they have no training or even experience in military matters.


If you do and I can't read your mind, please, go ahead, everyone is listening...

DEM Kinda Switches have Been In Movies and TV FOREVER. I assume Civvies watch movies. And I assume they can comprehend wat dey are watchin'.

So, without One Day at Boot Camp or One Moment in a Fire Fight, somehow Allmost all Civvies, know 'bout deez switches.

Movies, TV and GAmes are a Wonder. Oh yeah, and Books, DEM Wonders of Year Gone By.

eh?

Yeah, I'm an Expert in All Thangs. Me, Dull Man.

fO shO

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

I see that we have gone off track here. :-(

A terrorist attack is totally different to the everyday idiocy going on in the U.S.

...A handful of armed patrons. May, or may not, have reduced the total number of innocent victims murdered.....

And how many innocents would then be killed in the crossfire of those armed patrons?

As we can see the idiocy is continued here by very small group of fossils (I maybe a fossil too, but at least I can keep up with the changing attitudes of these times).

No cheers here. :-(

Before anyone goes too far off track thinking that everyone should arm themselves so as to protect themselves, family and friends against attacks, maybe you should consider where personal weapons would have helped in the following, very incomplete list, in no particular order.

9/11
USS Cole
Beirut 1983
KGL92678
Lockerby
...

I see that we have gone off track here. :-(

A terrorist attack is totally different to the everyday idiocy going on in the U.S.

...A handful of armed patrons. May, or may not, have reduced the total number of innocent victims murdered.....

And how many innocents would then be killed in the crossfire of those armed patrons?

As we can see the idiocy is continued here by very small group of fossils (I maybe a fossil too, but at least I can keep up with the changing attitudes of these times).

No cheers here. :-(

Ok...

Cower in fear, and die?

Unless you are in excellent shape, most likely yes. Most people are not trained in hand to hand combat, which includes Myself, which can be hand to hand, a gun in the dark could and would do more harm than good to others around you, but you appear to think that you can see in even pitch dark conditions, you'd waste the entire guns ammo magazine shooting at someone and still miss your opponent, then the handgun would be almost as useful as a rock, but then like I said in the darkness, a bomber has the advantage, the bomber only has to be in range, since the blast is omnidirectional, bullets fly only on the path they are aimed at, to think they will hit a target that the shooter has not aimed at is stupid currently, shows a lack of knowledge, under normal lighting conditions 37 years ago, if you were shooting at Me, unless you had skills that most civilians lack, I'd could have killed you or at least wounded you badly in a heartbeat, I was very good at what I did, but then I had lots of practice, if it moved and was anywhere within 600 meters(660 yards), I could hit it, repeatedly, civvies do not have those skills, so a gun in their hands is almost useless. I earned that Army Sharpshooters medal.

Oh and one more thing, I'm ambidextrous, so I could shoot either right or left handed equally well.

In WWII to survive the German stick grenade one had to be at least 5 feet away, many who weren't, either died of shrapnel wounds or drowned in their own blood, as their lungs filled up from ruptured blood vessels caused by the shockwave(air blast).

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

I see that we have gone off track here. :-(

A terrorist attack is totally different to the everyday idiocy going on in the U.S.

...A handful of armed patrons. May, or may not, have reduced the total number of innocent victims murdered.....

And how many innocents would then be killed in the crossfire of those armed patrons?

As we can see the idiocy is continued here by very small group of fossils (I maybe a fossil too, but at least I can keep up with the changing attitudes of these times).

No cheers here. :-(

Ok...

Cower in fear, and die?

Don't worry Clyde, no one expects anything close to resembling a "sensible post" from you anyway (why you even bother posting your silly garbage has most of us puzzled), but you are 1 that I do see "cowering" just by your replies. ;-)

Cheers.