WASTING MY TIME?


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Profile dancer42
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Message 1309722 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 11:31:58 UTC - in response to Message 1309713.

THANK'S!!!!!
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Profile Chris S
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Message 1309727 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 11:45:27 UTC

I think it is helpful to realise that Seti by its very nature is a bit of an esoteric project. By that I mean we don't know if there are any ET's out there, let alone if we might be able to contact them. In contrast other projects searching for cancer cures, malaria cures, clean water, or prime numbers seem to have much more chances of realistically finding a result to their search. But if we don't look we will never find.

But, and there is a big but, being part of Seti is much more than just crunching workunits. Just take a look at the boards, forums, and threads here. Look how vibrant and active they are, you don't get that at any other Boinc project. In fact for many many people, Seti is their social life.

To pick up on Bernies point about green stars. Having one signifies that you have donated withing the past 12 months. Not having one doesn't mean that you never have. Personally I would like to see a system where a green star is for a current donation, and a yellow star means one in the past. People of course may still wish to be anonymous.

As we have said before, if Seti is not for you, then there are other Boinc projects, and we wish you well.

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Message 1309728 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 11:50:41 UTC - in response to Message 1309727.
Last modified: 24 Nov 2012, 11:55:31 UTC

I think it is helpful to realise that Seti by its very nature is a bit of an esoteric project. By that I mean we don't know if there are any ET's out there, let alone if we might be able to contact them. In contrast other projects searching for cancer cures, malaria cures, clean water, or prime numbers seem to have much more chances of realistically finding a result to their search. But if we don't look we will never find.

But, and there is a big but, being part of Seti is much more than just crunching workunits. Just take a look at the boards, forums, and threads here. Look how vibrant and active they are, you don't get that at any other Boinc project. In fact for many many people, Seti is their social life.

To pick up on Bernies point about green stars. Having one signifies that you have donated withing the past 12 months. Not having one doesn't mean that you never have. Personally I would like to see a system where a green star is for a current donation, and a yellow star means one in the past. People of course may still wish to be anonymous.

As we have said before, if Seti is not for you, then there are other Boinc projects, and we wish you well.


Just a side note.......
The kitties just made a small kibble donation to get their Green Star shining again. I did donate to a GPUUG hard drive fundraiser a bit ago, but that did not get updated in time.
The kitties could not bear seeing their prized star gone dark.

Twinkle twinkle little meow!

EDIT...
Meow, but that was fast.... Took all of 13 minutes after the donation, and the kitties are once again shining brightly!!
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Profile Chris S
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Message 1309744 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 12:27:54 UTC

Well done Mark and Thankyou. What gets me cross is those people who regularly use the Seti boards to propagate their own particular, usually religious or political, dogma. But, haven't given a dime to the project, and never will do. That to me is just taking the p**s.

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Message 1309747 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 12:40:01 UTC - in response to Message 1309744.
Last modified: 24 Nov 2012, 12:44:16 UTC

Well done Mark and Thankyou. What gets me cross is those people who regularly use the Seti boards to propagate their own particular, usually religious or political, dogma. But, haven't given a dime to the project, and never will do. That to me is just taking the p**s.


Chris...
I have espoused that view in the past, but was told it was politically incorrect.
And then there's caveat that one CAN donate, but for whatever reasons I cannot fathom, does not wish anybody else to know it.

I personally never understood why anybody with the means to connect their computer to this project would not have the pride to donate even $10.00 directly to it and wish everybody else to know that.

I gave up long ago trying to shame anybody into getting their green star. I do however wish that a little more pride in what they believe in would lead more participants to do so.

Fact is......there are probably dang few participating that could really not afford $10.00 a year for this project if they truly cared about it.

And that's all it takes to wear the green star.
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Message 1309772 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 13:58:51 UTC

The ego and self-importance of some people is surfacing again (maybe it never went under) with the ridicule of people without a green star. It is quite apparent that we each contribute resources to this project, those who are computing continuously. I'm sorry I have to remind you of that. Most of this community's PC's no longer waste energy all night as they did when the project started, with automatic sleep mode, etc. So we choose to contribute a portion of our energy bucks on S@H. Isn't that enough? Many of us go out and update our hardware periodically in order to "keep our stats up". That is a contribution as well, assuming our work is useful and appreciated. Unless I'm missing something, it is at that point the community recedes back and let's the S@H work its way. Pretty much that is where I am now.

There are a number of members who draw more out the project that the typical member, and that is fine. The get invovled with software development, networking gestalt learning, and raw competitive computing. More power to them, but most of the time the satisfaction they derive they derive "for free" and independent of S@H's mission. Obviously, I don't know all/any of you so you can speak for yourself. But, for example, the stat-monsters I read about here are really into themselves when everything is analyzed, not into the stated S@H mission.

Then there is the question of what is S@H's mission and how should the work be evaluated or critiqued. This is a personal question because no one is robbing my meager wealth (by way of big bro's taxes) and paying it out to S@H in a visible way. Putting the question of mission aside (because I think the project has been confused on that score for a while) it seems that when ever one critiques things, the fan boys come out and pounce on the raw meat. Ignoring that consquence, I will merely ask: what has S@H actually accomplished. I don't see much. A paper at a conference once in a long while is not much. They tend to be engineering or PR papers and not fundamental science. Perhaps I missed something but the "science" listed on the homepage is years old and not "fundamental" or results oriented. So, what is going on with all these wu's we compute? Nothing. How does that merit grants or contributions? This project is over a decade old; nothing. I don't mean that we should have found ET. But does anybody really use this work for the next step? If so, they are pretty quiet about it. On the other hand, I have personally contributed to and volunteered at a private food bank; the results are obvious. I donate a ham, and a small family goes out the door with a smile on their face. Probably a good use of my money, I conclude. Turning back to S@H, the most common feedback I get when I look (which admittedly I do less and less frequently) is that the server is down, or the network is choked, or some unix software isn't right, ... . You all get the message, I'm sure.

So, whereas, I really respect those who contribute to the project, I really reject the green star concept as classist and devisive.

Looking ahead, the S@H staff are great to do what they do on the shoe-string they have; don't get me wrong. They deserve our thanks and respect. But at some point, a little introspection should be made and strategic thinking should be applied and courses re-charted.

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Message 1309774 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 14:06:40 UTC - in response to Message 1309772.

The ego and self-importance of some people is surfacing again (maybe it never went under) with the ridicule of people without a green star.

Hmmmmmmm...whom might you be referring to?
Not that it matters much.

I have expressed my true opinions about the green star, what it means to me, and what I wish it meant for all participants on this project.

A show of support, a badge of honor. Not worn by all, their reasons are their own.
I hope complacency is not one of them. It only takes a few minutes to donate a ten spot.

Those that wish to partake in this project without the green star are of course always welcome and appreciated. There will always be more of them than there are of us.

Some of us simply hold a higher regard for those who don't only talk the talk.
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Message 1309785 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 15:04:00 UTC

Perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I should have done, and for that I apologise.

If people genuinely crunch for this project, but choose not to donate, that is fine by me.

If people genuinely crunch for this project, and donate, but choose to be anonymous, that is fine by me.

I get cross when people only make the minimum effort to crunch here, with no donation, with every intention of just using the boards as a place to give "free" vent to their personal views. That is what I had intended to say.

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Message 1309799 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 15:57:40 UTC - in response to Message 1309785.

:) Ok, got it, Chris. One may only post personal, and hopefully objective views if one donates cash. And if one crunches and doesn't say anything, that's ok too. I've been confused on that fine point for 10+ years.

And Mark(?), I certainly did not intend to target you. But, in a nutshell, well meaning attempts to coerce folks to have what someone else thinks is appropriate behavior is too centralized for my taste. People should just give to the cause if it moves them and forget about receiving some sort of pat on the back, or in this case green star.

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Message 1309815 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:22:17 UTC
Last modified: 24 Nov 2012, 16:23:04 UTC

Following a dream, "try to help to find our little green ET" will never be a "waste of time", the thread title is wrong!
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Message 1309816 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:24:30 UTC
Last modified: 24 Nov 2012, 16:25:45 UTC

:) Ok, got it, Chris. One may only post personal, and hopefully objective views if one donates cash. And if one crunches and doesn't say anything, that's ok too. I've been confused on that fine point for 10+ years.

And Mark(?), I certainly did not intend to target you. But, in a nutshell, well meaning attempts to coerce folks to have what someone else thinks is appropriate behavior is too centralized for my taste. People should just give to the cause if it moves them and forget about receiving some sort of pat on the back, or in this case green star.

I think the efforts by many to crunch continuously and spend money on hardware upgrades is appreciated and certainly is helpful for the project's objectives. Over the last two years, I've done those things to increase my contribution. But, I'm a financial guy and can see from the numbers that the project simply cannot continue at even this reduced level of operations without significant donations from the community. I realize that some can't donate cash due to economic conditions beyound their control, or in some cases currentcy restrictions. I've made additional contributions on their behalf over the past 2 years, both to the project's general purpose funds and to Slavac's hardware drives. I haven't commented on those that won't help keep the project running, but I understand that it irks some people to have the load shifted to them.

Certainly everyone is free to express their view - hope you'll consider mine.
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Profile dancer42
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Message 1309817 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:25:47 UTC - in response to Message 1309772.

The ego and self-importance of some people is surfacing again (maybe it never went under) with the ridicule of people without a green star. It is quite apparent that we each contribute resources to this project, those who are computing continuously. I'm sorry I have to remind you of that. Most of this community's PC's no longer waste energy all night as they did when the project started, with automatic sleep mode, etc. So we choose to contribute a portion of our energy bucks on S@H. Isn't that enough? Many of us go out and update our hardware periodically in order to "keep our stats up". That is a contribution as well, assuming our work is useful and appreciated. Unless I'm missing something, it is at that point the community recedes back and let's the S@H work its way. Pretty much that is where I am now.

There are a number of members who draw more out the project that the typical member, and that is fine. The get invovled with software development, networking gestalt learning, and raw competitive computing. More power to them, but most of the time the satisfaction they derive they derive "for free" and independent of S@H's mission. Obviously, I don't know all/any of you so you can speak for yourself. But, for example, the stat-monsters I read about here are really into themselves when everything is analyzed, not into the stated S@H mission.

Then there is the question of what is S@H's mission and how should the work be evaluated or critiqued. This is a personal question because no one is robbing my meager wealth (by way of big bro's taxes) and paying it out to S@H in a visible way. Putting the question of mission aside (because I think the project has been confused on that score for a while) it seems that when ever one critiques things, the fan boys come out and pounce on the raw meat. Ignoring that consquence, I will merely ask: what has S@H actually accomplished. I don't see much. A paper at a conference once in a long while is not much. They tend to be engineering or PR papers and not fundamental science. Perhaps I missed something but the "science" listed on the homepage is years old and not "fundamental" or results oriented. So, what is going on with all these wu's we compute? Nothing. How does that merit grants or contributions? This project is over a decade old; nothing. I don't mean that we should have found ET. But does anybody really use this work for the next step? If so, they are pretty quiet about it. On the other hand, I have personally contributed to and volunteered at a private food bank; the results are obvious. I donate a ham, and a small family goes out the door with a smile on their face. Probably a good use of my money, I conclude. Turning back to S@H, the most common feedback I get when I look (which admittedly I do less and less frequently) is that the server is down, or the network is choked, or some unix software isn't right, ... . You all get the message, I'm sure.

So, whereas, I really respect those who contribute to the project, I really reject the green star concept as classist and devisive.

Looking ahead, the S@H staff are great to do what they do on the shoe-string they have; don't get me wrong. They deserve our thanks and respect. But at some point, a little introspection should be made and strategic thinking should be applied and courses re-charted.


I am one of the people that has been encouraging others to donate and i to would like to clarify what i am saying. If you have a star grate if you don't have a star but crunch grate i have not mentioned stars at all till now.
What i have tried to say is if you belong to a club and can afford it you expect to have to pay dues every once and a while to keep the roof over head and the lights on.
As to what seti has done and what it's mission is, seti's original goal was to ask people to volunteer computer time and resources to search for radio evidence of extra terrestrial life.
seti is what is called pure research because it is not about finding that signal it is about learning about how to look and serendipitously finding things along the way. If folding@home finds a cure for huntington's disease it will be because seti led the way. if the prime numbers primegrid is finding make your banking safer thank seti. If what is learned at cern though lhc@home, it will have been sped up many years because seti is here it is about the cheapest investment to unlocking basic information about the universe there is on this planet and Well worth collecting a little pocket change and sending it every couple of year but feel free to sit on the side line, no one will twist you arm least of all me. I sat on the side line too for a long time and now am playing catch up hopefully by march i can get my contribution to a dollar a month for the time i have used seti what you do is up to you. in any event good crunching and happy holidays to you and crack a smile for no apparent reason it breaks up the day.

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Message 1309827 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:40:21 UTC - in response to Message 1309799.

:) Ok, got it, Chris. One may only post personal, and hopefully objective views if one donates cash. And if one crunches and doesn't say anything, that's ok too. I've been confused on that fine point for 10+ years.

And Mark(?), I certainly did not intend to target you. But, in a nutshell, well meaning attempts to coerce folks to have what someone else thinks is appropriate behavior is too centralized for my taste. People should just give to the cause if it moves them and forget about receiving some sort of pat on the back, or in this case green star.

I'm all in favour of freedom, in the sense of freedom of action and free speech.

But the supply of free WUs is closer to free beer - i.e., they're only free if somebody else is paying.

I support the call for donations at times when our hobby and our search mission is under strain - I've done it before, and I'll do it again. I'm not interested in the slightest by the number of green stars on display, but I am interested (and disappointed) by the numbers on the recent donations page.

Come on, it takes money to keep this show running. If you are a freedom lover, you'd probably prefer that it comes from individual donations rather than coercively from taxpayers. In this week, we've seen that one member of staff voluntarily went to the lab on a national holiday to fix a problem, and there are now signs that someone (whether the same person, or a different one) volunteered to go there before 8 am on a (holiday) Saturday morning. We can't go to the lab and help in person, but we can show our appreciation and contribute in other ways. I'd simply invite free beer lovers to stand their round.

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Message 1309831 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:53:10 UTC

Good post Richard, I fully support your stance.

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Message 1309842 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 17:26:07 UTC

I agree with a lot said here, but primarily, whether someone has a green star next to their name should have no bearing on how they are though of or treated. We are all exactly equal green star or not.
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Message 1309862 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 18:13:35 UTC - in response to Message 1309772.

The ego and self-importance of some people is surfacing again (maybe it never went under) with the ridicule of people without a green star. It is quite apparent that we each contribute resources to this project, those who are computing continuously. I'm sorry I have to remind you of that. Most of this community's PC's no longer waste energy all night as they did when the project started, with automatic sleep mode, etc. So we choose to contribute a portion of our energy bucks on S@H. Isn't that enough? Many of us go out and update our hardware periodically in order to "keep our stats up". That is a contribution as well, assuming our work is useful and appreciated. Unless I'm missing something, it is at that point the community recedes back and let's the S@H work its way. Pretty much that is where I am now.


Ego and self-importance?

Dancer42 is obviously missing my point with this personal attack (Read his complete post).

It's quite simple. Seti@Home is being overwhelmed (among other problems). If many/most of the persons spending time and money on THEIR end, would only contribute a few dollars a year: It may greatly help.

I am truly sorry if asking people to contribute a few dollars a year hit a raw nerve.
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Message 1309867 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 18:17:44 UTC

No green star. Just sitting here waiting patiently.
...and wishing others would do the same.
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Message 1309904 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 20:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 1309772.



But, for example, the stat-monsters I read about here are really into themselves when everything is analyzed, not into the stated S@H mission.



I'm not arguing with you, but since you put that into print I feel the need to respond. There are no "stats-monsters" here. If anyone were into their stats, there are many projects that "pay" better and many projects that are more easily dominated. Every single person who crunches SETI@Home work is devoted to the project. If not, they are foolishly wasting their ability to "gain stats."

What you may be seeing is some extremely friendly competition from people who are a little OCD. I've never, ever seen anyone say, "Look at me! I'm #1. The rest of you are inferior to me!"




So, whereas, I really respect those who contribute to the project, I really reject the green star concept as classist and devisive.


Now, I want to argue. I think you are looking at it wrong.

It takes so very, very little to get that star that anyone, and I do mean *anyone,* who participates can get a star if they want one. We are all exactly equal in our ability to get a green star. Notice that there is no way to tell whether someone gave $10 or $10,000 by looking at their star. I suspect that was by design.

Think of it like the satisfaction you get from giving a ham instead of receiving one. Unless you are donating that anonymously somehow, someone smiles at you and says "thank you," when they receive your contribution whether it's one ham or a truck full of hams. It's just an acknowledgement that you have contributed to the cause.

It does show each-other who cares enough to support the research beyond running their computer. It's sort-of like a donor appreciation event with punch and star cookies. If there's something wrong with that, you'll have to explain it to me.




But at some point, a little introspection should be made and strategic thinking should be applied and courses re-charted.



There are several new things going-on and several research projects are going-on all at once. Since they are sharing data and infrastructure there's a kind-of gestalt at work. I'd like to know more about what all is going-on and I'm sure, one day, when they have time, they'll give us some details.

If not; well, that's perfectly alright, too. You can't know that the family didn't take the ham home and feed it to the dog.

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Message 1309917 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 20:50:49 UTC

I'm not sure why people think I'm attacking people who have not contributed.

I may have been a bit tart. But it was just an observation and just trying to help the lab.

Why asking for contributions to seti@home, or any other non-profit institution, would be considered negative is beyond me.

So... Continuing to crunch Seti, Einstein, and perhaps others. I'll leave these blogs to others.

PS - BLESS ERIC, MATT, AND ALL THE OTHERS IN THE LAB.
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Message 1309919 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 20:53:13 UTC - in response to Message 1309904.

It takes so very, very little to get that star that anyone, and I do mean *anyone,* who participates can get a star if they want one. We are all exactly equal in our ability to get a green star.

Sadly, thats not true. To be able to donate you need a credit card or a PayPal account. In my country the only way to send money to a PayPal account is through a credit card, and the banks do not give credit cards for free. I dont have one because they have a very hard to achieve requisites to give you a "domestic" one and the requisites become plainly impossible for the international cards needed to be able to send money out of the country...

So, Im not able to get a green star, not even if I were wanting to have one.

That said, Im not against the stars, and TBH this concept is not classist neither divisive. It is people that could be classist, and for that people anything can be used to attack others to feel that they are better: "With that miserable [RAC|post count|total credit|age|gender|small "thing"] you should be ashamed"...
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