Supreme Court upholds Obamacare


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WinterKnight
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Message 1253111 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 7:51:14 UTC
Last modified: 29 Jun 2012, 7:56:53 UTC

Excuse me, as an Englishman, butting in here, on what is basically an American subject.

The first point, nobody knows when something might happen that requires them to need health treatment. So saying people don't need or want health cover is not logical.

The second item is how much will it cost.
If we look at the English NHS, it's budget is £60B, for a population of 50M. The population of The US is about 300M, so we might assume health cost to be about 6 times the English costs, 6 * 60B * 1.5 = $540B.

Google says there are 138M tax payers, and the average income is $47,000. So the average tax payer would pay ~$4,000, or 8.5% if it was only paid be personal tax. In the UK the National Insurance has employer and employee contributions, with the employer contribution being the greater. It pays the employer for the employee to be healthy. On that model the cost to the employee would be less than half of the 8.5% suggested, so I would guess at 4%, or less that $2,000/year ($40/wk).
You also only pay during your working life, so the UK system covers you in your retirement with no extra health costs. There are costs if you have to move into a health care home, if you cannot look after yourself and family is not able to do it.

Another thing I read, in Florida, and maybe else where, the lowest health insurance plan requires the user to pay the first $20,000. As 90% of the people who take out this plan do not have $20,000 the insurance plan is invalid. So what sort of plan is that.

I also see a lot of Americans complaining about the amount of tax they pay, suggest they google "tax rates by country", you will probably find the US rates are in the bottom 25% of countries.

Stop B****y whinging.

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Message 1253113 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 7:56:22 UTC - in response to Message 1253086.

It's a matter of opinion.

I feel health care should be a guaranteed right, in the US, as it is in other industrialized nations.

I don't think cars (or any material possessions) are "rights".

Your taxes (and mine) already are paying for government supplied services. Adding one service, no matter how big of a service, changes nothing about the way we are taxed.

You or I hopefully haven't needed/wanted to call the police. But if we did, they are there for us.


I don't think it's going to pan out as bad as some people think, nor do I believe Obamacare being passed will "open the floodgates" of socialism. The right, when talking about Obamacare, sound as priests did during the Salem trials. Much ado about nothing.


Health departments, freeways and police are not rights, and neither is health care. Yes, my first three examples are government services, but their costs are not forced on individuals (you don't pay the cop who investigates a burglary of your house) but on all taxpayers. In this case, you only get penalized (taxed, according the the Sup.Ct.) if you don't buy this service--this is completely different from any other government service. Collective government services are historically and fundamentally different from privately purchased goods and services.

And I'm sure he doesn't care, but President Obama, who promised no tax increases from his administration, has been made a liar by the Supreme Court.

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Message 1253128 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 8:54:23 UTC - in response to Message 1253121.

In time Health Care for Americans will be a Constitutional Mandate.
ObamNeyCare is just a first step.
In civilized societies like France Health Care "for all" is funded by taxes,
and the results are "Awesome".

Someone is still upset over G. W. Bush being called a liar.

Yeah, everything is GWB with you. Well, take off your blinders and look critically at your wonderful President Obama. He did not do anything to deserve a Nobel Peace Prize, he has not fixed the economy, he has not closed Guantanamo, and on and on. For all the excuses you may come up with (actually you seem to have only one: that it's all GWB's fault) President Obama's term has been a failure.

Oh, and your claim that Health Care is a "Constitutional Mandate" demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of the American Constitution.

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Message 1253157 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 11:36:50 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 14:29:38 UTC

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Message 1253234 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 16:30:18 UTC - in response to Message 1253157.
Last modified: 29 Jun 2012, 16:42:49 UTC

Ex, it's not a stretch at all! Ask any youngster up in Canada--want a pill? Get a pill for free! Ask anybody in San Francisco--wanna smoke some weed? Pay off a doctor to prescribe you some weed, pay $500/oz for some good weed! With single payer, the weed will become free!

betreger, where am I saying I don't want single payer? I want it NOW. And I want President Obama for another term!

ID, yes, it's about who decides. Somebody has to make some tough decisions with the QALY model. There are people out there getting health care right now who don't deserve health care and that health care should be going to those who are not getting health care right now. And a mindless, heartless government bureaucracy is the best way. Health care costs will finally be UNDER CONTROL. Talk to any YOUNG person up in Canada! (Don’t talk to any old person though.) This is the HOPE and CHANGE we all voted for!

Quin-Gon, excellent point! This is exactly why I say the next thing for the government to seize control of is agriculture and farming. Healthy foods!

WinterKnight, the English system is a fine system! (could use a few tweaks here and there though.) Here in the US, the price a person pays will be based on his ability to pay. So, the more you have, the more you'll pay. The less you have, the less you'll pay. 30,000,000 Americans now have FREE health care. How can anybody complain about that? I figure we'll consolidate all the medical payment systems into one medical payment system by 2017. That's my best guess for now.

Canadians get free, legal, taxpayer provided weed huh? I'd like to see proof of that one Guy.....WOW...<grumble> (seems like your using "Family Guy" as a source of news)

Guy, Winterknight broke down some good numbers for us. Approximate cost assuming employer contribution to a single payer system:
or less that $2,000/year ($40/wk).



40$ a week in taxes, assuming everyone paid equal taxes under a (someday) single payer system.

Right now, where I work, a family plan is 200$ a week out of pocket, plus 20% of any bills up to 15,000$! (Oh and co-pays ranging from 40-1000$!)

You're gonna tell me I'm better off with this, than paying 40$ a week all included?

Even if I had free insurance, I'd have no problem paying 40$ more a week to afford YOU the right to complete, comprehensive care, that won't bankrupt you if you fall ill. (In my state, most of us are paying Medicaid tax in our paychecks that's along the same percentage of income, as 40$ is to my income.)

So forgive me, but I'm still failing to see how this is a bad thing.


I know the fundamentalists will scream "US Constitution!"....

It's a living breathing document, times change, the constitution changes.
When the Constitution was written, there was NO health insurance, NO real medical system. Times have changed people. I don't think our laws should be reflective of 1800's Earth...

On that note, I think I'm done with this thread. Everyone's stated their beliefs.



...And Guy,... man all issues are NOT intertwined. Single payer system has nothing to do with the country becoming socialist potheads. Really man, play nice. Separate issues for separate discussion. Once again the Right really seems to think that ONE major change means the end of conservative Americans. How? (Your side would benefit from universal healthcare just as much as my side, hence the term "universal")...
You said it yourself:
WinterKnight, the English system is a fine system!


Then why can't we take some lessons from them Guy?
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Message 1253240 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 16:49:49 UTC - in response to Message 1253234.

can anyone say Amish paradise. Rockin' it 1790's style.
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Profile Ex
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Message 1253276 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 17:42:27 UTC
Last modified: 29 Jun 2012, 17:42:46 UTC

Yea, sure, 'cause that's how universal healthcare works...........
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Message 1253295 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 18:12:08 UTC - in response to Message 1253276.

Dave, you are taking exception with someone who has a very absolute and concrete view of the world. Short of changing the lens involved (not going to happen) you are engaging in a task which won't yield anything.

Of course, should Romney win, we all know that within 6 months, the economy will surge, gas prices will drop, and private health care insurance prices will return to 1980 levels.......

Yea, sure, 'cause that's how universal healthcare works...........

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Message 1253345 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 19:49:45 UTC

Then again, who would vote for a guy named Willard?

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Message 1253359 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 20:23:14 UTC - in response to Message 1253328.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WBRjU9P5eo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ

This is what you are looking at if you continue down this road of socialism.

Im 100% serious.

I suspect Learning to speak Swedish will also be mandatory.
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Message 1253371 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 20:51:17 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 14:29:02 UTC

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Profile Qui-Gon
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Message 1253381 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 20:57:47 UTC - in response to Message 1253271.

Obamacare is just like Medicare, it is not private health insurance ...

Private health insurance is you going to state farm or any other insurance company and buying a policy.

Socialized health care is everyone dumping money in the federal pot.

All you old men will not get a heart transplant, or new knees. When someone in their late 30's or early 40's is needing the same. They [the federal government] will tell you when and where and even IF you get the treatment you NEED. All Old men will be left in the hallway to die. Bottom line...

Then fund it, honestly, like Medicare! Impose a tax, call it a tax, then ask Representatives and Senators from the 50 states to vote on it (of course it would not have passed). Don't require private individuals to buy something then penalize them if they choose not to, which the Supremes just deemed to be a tax, even though Congress insisted it was not.

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Message 1253405 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 21:18:01 UTC - in response to Message 1253381.

Then fund it, honestly, like Medicare! Impose a tax, call it a tax, then ask Representatives and Senators from the 50 states to vote on it (of course it would not have passed). Don't require private individuals to buy something then penalize them if they choose not to, which the Supremes just deemed to be a tax, even though Congress insisted it was not.

The liberals lied to us? Say it isn't so.
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Message 1253410 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 21:22:28 UTC

It is very simple, stop classifying Marijuana as a "drug", consider it the herb that it is, and the government will not pay for it any more than they will pay for Orange juice a doctor recommends.


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Message 1253458 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 22:29:43 UTC - in response to Message 1253381.

OK -- but first, let's us retroactively pay the Iran/Afghanistan War tax. Get that passed as a start -- after all that money has already been spent.

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Message 1253498 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 23:42:24 UTC - in response to Message 1253371.
Last modified: 29 Jun 2012, 23:49:26 UTC

Not a bad post Guy. I just don't think that Europe's/Canada's health care system is any worse than our current one that outright excludes a huge chunk of the population.

Now, any Canadians or folks from the U.K. want to tell us how long the waiting list is for by-pass surgery? Go ahead. I won't criticize. It's what the U.S. wants and it's what the U.S. is going to get. Go ahead--say it! (or I'll google it and post it.)


I'm curious about this one too. But I bet the wait is NOT any longer than it is here Guy, this is where I think you may have a misunderstanding. These single payer systems, provide excellent care that is in many ways considered superior to ours. (I'll admit, some of our facilities in this country may be more up-to-date or advanced, but the overall care is not quite as good as in Europe/Canada).

But let's keep everything is perspective here, you are comparing government run insurance (medicare) to Europe's/Canada's insurance...

Try that comparison with the private high-deductible high-premium insurance many of us have through our employers, against Canadian/European systems.

The insurance you admit was/is so great for your father, is government run. And medicare, like state medicaid, is good stuff. You seem to admit this (in a way), but yet you're arguing against something that may be paving the road for a "national guaranteed medicare" (so to speak) or even government paid insurance administered by private companies.



My father was diagnosed with 100/90/90/70 blockage in his heart arteries a few years ago. He was on the table and the bone saw was cutting his chest open 15 hours later paid for in full by Medicare. This is totally unacceptable to the American people.

Honestly, it seems that your opinion is against this type of care. I detect conflict of beliefs here...
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Message 1253518 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 0:42:38 UTC - in response to Message 1253498.
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