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Message 1225241 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 6:42:50 UTC - in response to Message 1225240.
Last modified: 30 Apr 2012, 6:51:41 UTC

Yes, have a good night Intelligent Design, Matt...have a good day...
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Message 1225261 - Posted: 30 Apr 2012, 8:53:15 UTC

There is evidence that the Fibonacci series does appear across various parts of nature, and in scientific areas. The unanswerable question of course is whether it was by deliberate design by a third party or parties unkown, or simply by evolution where the most fittest survive. If you sat down with a sheet of blank paper to design a planet, you might to decide to base that design upon a set theme. Sounds a bit like the Norwegian Fiords in HHGTTG but you know what I mean.

Notwithstanding the Dead Sea Scrolls, I doubt we'll be finding any hidden blueprints very soon.

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Message 1225557 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 1:02:01 UTC

Fair enough, how about it denotes Design? I think with other evidence, related and unrelated it's a darn good start.

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Message 1225560 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 1:12:51 UTC - in response to Message 1225557.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Noticing a pattern in nature does not suggest "Design" (with a capitol D); its merely similar to how we recognize faces in strange patterns. Its an interesting observation, but until we have more data, drawing such a strong conclusion from it would be too presumptuous.

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Message 1225655 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 7:01:14 UTC

Possibly picking up the Fibonacci series in nature is evidence of nature using
positive feed back when structuring/building various objects. To explain this
idea...Nature builds (1) and it works. So to progress it then adds another (1) so
now this structure has two. It still works and so to progress it adds (1) to the
(2) and it now has (3). Still it works but due to progress it tries to improve
on the structure so it now adds to the successful (3) the previous successful (2)
and now the structure has (5). If this still works it then progresses to adding to
the successful (5) the previous successful (3) so now this structure has (8). Nature
carries on doing this until such time as the progress stage finally fails to
produce a successful result. Nature must use some form of feed back when
attempting to construct things like cells for instance so maybe seeing the Fibonacci
summation series in nature is possibly evidence of this?


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Message 1225670 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 8:29:21 UTC

I always remember when doing the Open Univesity many years ago, learning about the famous Galapagos finches. There the most suitable for the environment survived to breed with their particular attributes. Some needed long slender bills to pick insects from rock crevices, Others needed short stouter beaks to crack nuts and shells.

There was no intelligent design or nature adapting, it was simply survival of the fittest. That is maybe what we are seeing with the Fibonacci series, where possibly spiral shells are stronger than other types, and maybe the unequal spacing of leaves around a plant stem gives stability in windy weather, something like the spiral flutes at the top of tall chimneys.

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Message 1225825 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 20:36:08 UTC - in response to Message 1225670.

I never liked the term Survival of the fittest.

Perhaps a better term is "survival of the most easily adaptable"
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Message 1225833 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 20:47:30 UTC - in response to Message 1225825.

There you go -- sounding like a Bain Capital sort of guy <giggle>

I never liked the term Survival of the fittest.

Perhaps a better term is "survival of the most easily adaptable"

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Message 1225834 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 20:48:45 UTC

I never liked the term Survival of the fittest.

Perhaps a better term is "survival of the most easily adaptable"


All of the Galapagos finches came from the same basic stock, so they were all just as capable of adapting to the particular environment that they individually found themselves in. Those that were the most suited to the conditions of their life, survived to breed on.

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Message 1225859 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 21:26:20 UTC

Perhaps some here think I don't believe in Darwin?

This is not true. I do believe. I believe in his work, his book.

I don't believe in what was done to his work after his death. Neo-Darwinism, isn't correct.

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Message 1225861 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 21:27:48 UTC - in response to Message 1225655.

Possibly picking up the Fibonacci series in nature is evidence of nature using
positive feed back when structuring/building various objects. To explain this
idea...Nature builds (1) and it works. So to progress it then adds another (1) so
now this structure has two. It still works and so to progress it adds (1) to the
(2) and it now has (3). Still it works but due to progress it tries to improve
on the structure so it now adds to the successful (3) the previous successful (2)
and now the structure has (5). If this still works it then progresses to adding to
the successful (5) the previous successful (3) so now this structure has (8). Nature
carries on doing this until such time as the progress stage finally fails to
produce a successful result. Nature must use some form of feed back when
attempting to construct things like cells for instance so maybe seeing the Fibonacci
summation series in nature is possibly evidence of this?


I think so. Please continue...
...so far so good. On the right track. :-)

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Message 1225874 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 22:10:28 UTC - in response to Message 1225859.

I don't believe in what was done to his work after his death. Neo-Darwinism, isn't correct.

So you don't believe in DNA. Okay.

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Message 1225886 - Posted: 1 May 2012, 22:38:08 UTC - in response to Message 1225874.

I don't believe in what was done to his work after his death. Neo-Darwinism, isn't correct.

So you don't believe in DNA. Okay.

Oh, I believe in DNA.

Last year I seen with my own eyes a sparrows [English import kind] eating off the fronts of cars in parking lots. Cars haven't been around but about 100 years and only about 50 of them years at speeds to smash bugs on the fronts of them. Id say thats rather fast for the evolutionary process.

Neo-Darwinism postulates that natural selection acts on---heritable (genetic) variations "on individuals" in populations and that mutations (especally random copying errors in DNA) give us the main source of these genetic variations. Because positive mutations "appear" to be rare, Neo-Darwinism tells us that evolution will be a slow, gradual process. Neo-Darwinism is also called the Modern Synthesis. Odd that Neo-Darwinism blends Darwin with DNA and yet objects to my blending of science and Faith. Darwin had no real proof that he was on the correct track, no more proof then I. So, then it was taken on fiath that Darwin was correct right up till we found DNA? Ah, but I do have that Faith Gene as my hold out card for trump, might not be the last trump care either...

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Message 1226003 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 3:19:48 UTC - in response to Message 1225886.

I don't believe in what was done to his work after his death. Neo-Darwinism, isn't correct.

So you don't believe in DNA. Okay.

Oh, I believe in DNA.

Last year I seen with my own eyes a sparrows [English import kind] eating off the fronts of cars in parking lots. Cars haven't been around but about 100 years and only about 50 of them years at speeds to smash bugs on the fronts of them. Id say thats rather fast for the evolutionary process.

I think you don't understand evolution. What you describe is a learned behavior. It isn't that the beak of the bird has changed shape to better pick bugs off a windshield, which would be evolution.

Neo-Darwinism postulates that natural selection acts on---heritable (genetic) variations "on individuals" in populations and that mutations (especally random copying errors in DNA) give us the main source of these genetic variations. Because positive mutations "appear" to be rare, Neo-Darwinism tells us that evolution will be a slow, gradual process. Neo-Darwinism is also called the Modern Synthesis. Odd that Neo-Darwinism blends Darwin with DNA and yet objects to my blending of science and Faith. Darwin had no real proof that he was on the correct track, no more proof then I. So, then it was taken on fiath that Darwin was correct right up till we found DNA? Ah, but I do have that Faith Gene as my hold out card for trump, might not be the last trump care either...

Where do you get this will be slow? Look up Mendelian genetics. It didn't take centuries for those sweet peas to have different color blooms.

I think your assumptions are showing.

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Message 1226010 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 3:38:51 UTC

Look what has happened to the wolf since we intervened. Or more specifically just look at the dog breeds that we shaped in just 200 years.

All genetics.
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Message 1226015 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 3:49:19 UTC - in response to Message 1226010.

Look what has happened to the wolf since we intervened. Or more specifically just look at the dog breeds that we shaped in just 200 years.

All genetics.


Nice of you to bring that up.

We use the Design we was given in nature.

We started when we became farmers.

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Message 1226193 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 13:48:03 UTC - in response to Message 1226015.

Look what has happened to the wolf since we intervened. Or more specifically just look at the dog breeds that we shaped in just 200 years.

All genetics.


Nice of you to bring that up.

We use the Design we was given in nature.

We started when we became farmers.

Ah, ignore inconvenient facts, a requirement of belief.

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Message 1226378 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 21:36:26 UTC - in response to Message 1225241.

Yes, have a good night Intelligent Design, Matt...have a good day...


If that is true it is either incompetent or malevolent. That is as clear as the glasses on your face.

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Message 1226391 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 21:54:36 UTC - in response to Message 1225261.

There is evidence that the Fibonacci series does appear across various parts of nature, and in scientific areas. The unanswerable question of course is whether it was by deliberate design by a third party or parties unkown, or simply by evolution where the most fittest survive.


If one wishes to make an issue of this series then one must also explain all the series not found in nature at the same time. A hits out of millions is not unexpected. And in making claims for Fibonacci series one has to address the correct use of the word ALMOST describing its fit before going further. Almost means it is not a mathematically exact fit but rather one good enough for government work.

If you sat down with a sheet of blank paper to design a planet, you might to decide to base that design upon a set theme. Sounds a bit like the Norwegian Fiords in HHGTTG but you know what I mean.

Notwithstanding the Dead Sea Scrolls, I doubt we'll be finding any hidden blueprints very soon.


If one were to design a planet it is best to start off with Ringworld and then change the laws of nature so that it is stable. As in Time Bandits it would be better to start with with computers on day one along with several other good ideas.

It is at best malevolent to design in disease, suffering and death. That is just sadistic. Maybe the designer is a sadist. It never said it was a nice god. Its sales staff said that.

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Message 1226393 - Posted: 2 May 2012, 22:01:24 UTC

If one were to design a planet it is best to start off with Ringworld and then change the laws of nature so that it is stable. As in Time Bandits it would be better to start with with computers on day one along with several other good ideas.

I think that Discworld by Douglas Adams has a lot more going for it ....

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