As for the Socratic method of debate, how can we achieve anything without first identifying commonly held truths that shape our opinion?

So religion is then in your eyes a commonly held truth?

If that's how you feel, that would be the line that separates us.

My point was simple, one need not believe in a deity or religion to have values and morals. And as has been mentioned, many religions have this uncanny ability to lead it's members into actions that defy all sense of morals.

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#resist

This statement;

I have seen references to the idea that having moral values is not predicated on the idea of the existence of God.

got me thinking about a saying that I couldn't remember fully or acurately, but eventuaally found it and where it comes from.

A Designer Universe?
by Steven Weinberg

Oh and the bit I couldn't remember.

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

As for the Socratic method of debate, how can we achieve anything without first identifying commonly held truths that shape our opinion?

So religion is then in your eyes a commonly held truth?

That is clearly not what Guy was saying.

What kind of absolutes are you looking for us to respond with?

How many kinds of absolutes are there? Pick one and along with it, describe its kind.

Is it your contention that atheists must acknowledge the existence of God before they can adopt a set of moral values, i.e. they have a choice between being moral or being an atheist?

How did you arrive at that contention? Absolutely not.

I have seen references to the idea that having moral values is not predicated on the idea of the existence of God. Which tells me everything I need to know about most of you in here.

Oh? Do tell...

I'm really curious what you mean by that statement.

As for the Socratic method of debate, how can we achieve anything without first identifying commonly held truths that shape our opinion?

Good man, amen--so be it. ;-)

ID, round squares, square circles--great one! For others, it depends on which undiscovered dimension of the universe you view them from.

Q.I - Square Triangle Circle Shape

You missed the point by at least a mile. No logic here. Theory is not fact. Fact is not theory.

And religion is not science. Now we are getting somewhere. Glad you agree.

You missed the point by at least a mile. No logic here. Theory is not fact. Fact is not theory.

And religion is not science. Now we are getting somewhere. Glad you agree.

You missed the point by at least a mile. No logic here. Theory is not fact. Fact is not theory.

Ever hear of Biblical science? Apparently not.....

Prayer is the best way someone can feel in touch with God, but there is a catch.

When a boxer goes into the ring, he or she has people in their corner giving them instructions, and rooting them on. They are not in the ring all alone, but with their support team. that support can help them to fight better, and not give up so easily. It makes the people in the corner feel good to know they are behind their fighter, and the fighter feels good because they know someone is with them.

Prayer is a lot like that. When someone prays for someone else, it makes both parties feel good, and can elevate a mind set to a new level. Many times one or more people will pray for the return to health of someone close that is sick or injured. Clearly both parties benefit from this, in the same way the boxer and team benefit from their mutual support. The person or people praying are letting the sick or injured person know that they are there, doing everything possible to aid the recovery, and this can have a very positive effect on the sick or injured person, and even aid in recovery.

We have all seen in the movies where some group is about to go into battle against heavy odds, but the commander rallies the troops, and gives them the mind set that will help get them through the upcoming battle. They charge into battle all with the same mind set that they are going to win, or at least put a dent in the enemy.

There are other examples, in many different cultures. One would be the Pentecostals chanting in tongues, whipping up a euphoric state of mind. One can also site the groups that free handle venomous snakes and drink strychnine. The dance themselves into a fever, and can build up a feeling of joy and power. When one feels that God is on their side, they can deal more easily with what ever endeavor they are involved in. Prayer can bring on these mind sets, and really benefit all those involved. The effects can be quite real. This can happen regardless of which religion is practiced, or what culture is involved. In many good ways, this can be a powerful tool. Even for those that pray alone, they feel connected with a greater power than themselves, and often gain the strength to take on the next hurdle.

Now for the catch. The most valuable effect or prayer is establishing the mental frame of mind to take on the next challenge, but can it affect the physical world? Lets construct a controlled experiment. Suppose we have a very long room with a perfectly flat floor, and take all the air out of it. We have a table at one end some distance above the floor. On the table we take a bowling ball, a tiny bee bee, and a perfectly level rife barrel. If we fire the rifle perfectly horizontal with the floor so that the bullet leaves the end of the barrel at exactly the same time as the bowling ball and the bee bee are pushed off the table, all three will strike the floor at exactly the same time. Of course the rifle bullet will strike way away, as we have a very long room, but all three will hit the floor at the same time.

If you get any number of people praying that the outcome of that experiment should change, it never will. You could have every person on the planet praying very sincerely at exactly the same time, and the result will be the same. As long as you don't change the conditions of the experiment, the result will always be the same, no matter how many times you perform the experiment. The rest of the world works the same way, only there are billions of variables that are not always known. It is still a closed experiment, and prayer has no effect on the outcome of the experiment. If it did, one would think that the prayers of millions would be answered so that war ends, people have clean drinking water, every disease would be cured, and much of the suffering of the innocent would end. Clearly that's not what happens. The people praying still feel good, as they are doing their best to make the situation better, so it is not without benefit, but the situation doesn't change.

If I had Devine powers, I would not even wait for people to pray to me. I would start helping people at once. Especially if the people are what could be considered my children. I wouldn't let them go through torture, pain and misery just so they would pray to me. That just doesn't make any sense. If I created them in my image, that wouldn't say much for me if I turned them loose with all of the violent, cruel, and kind traits they currently have, especially in areas with parasite ridden water and scarce to no food so they could starve, suffer, and die due to no fault of their own.

When one looks at the earth, the universe, and man closely, we can start to understand how things really work. People are not so different from other species of animals. We all eat, breath, drink, reproduce, and can have violent tendencies. In may species, adult males will kill and eat their own young, or those of another male. Chimps will even team up with weapons, and raid another chimp troop, killing, and even eating some of the other troop. Dolphins, whales, wolves, hyenas, and many other species have been know to form a collaborative group to either hunt in unison, or defend their own. People do the same things. Just like other animals, people can be extremely cruel, or very kind. I don't see that changing as long as people are in their present state of evolution.

Prayer can do a lot of good, but I have never seen any evidence that it can affect anything but mental mind set. In fact all the suffering, plate tectonics, meteor strikes, formation of the earth, stars, and life itself can be explained easily without the existence of a God/Creator. After all, everything behaves exactly as one would expect it to with no God at all. People suffer because of local conditions, which can be monetary, or environmental. Long running civilizations have collapsed due to lack of food or water. The Mayans are a good example, as well as the Roman Empire.

In some cultures people have made animal or human sacrifices to the God(s) hoping for some favor. Drought and famine may take years, decades, or longer to relinquish. Climate has changed hundreds of times over earth history for myriads of reasons. It would have done so whether man ever existed or not. The plates of the earth have been moving for millions of years due to the heat at the center of the earth due to radio active decay, but some day that engine will stop, and the continents will stop drifting. Someday, the moon will fly out of orbit, causing unpredictable things to happen to the earth. Someday the sun will swell up into a red giant with a white dwarf at its core, and engulf the earth. No amount of prayer will do anything to change that. Nor will any amount of prayer protect us if a star within 2000 light years goes supernova. The radiation will kill all life on this planet.

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

And religion is not science. Now we are getting somewhere. Glad you agree.

You missed the point by at least a mile. No logic here. Theory is not fact. Fact is not theory.

Ever hear of Biblical science? Apparently not.....

Oxymoron?

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The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

That's not a fact. That's a matter of unsubstantiated opinion.

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

That's not a fact. That's a matter of unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps in your view.
I happen to accept it as fact.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

And religion is not science. Now we are getting somewhere. Glad you agree.

You missed the point by at least a mile. No logic here. Theory is not fact. Fact is not theory.

Ever hear of Biblical science? Apparently not.....

Oxymoron?

Beyond Infinity

Bigger Half

Biggest Piece of Minutia--Bill O'Reily

Complete Half

Constant Variable--LOL!

Different Pattern

Equally Different

Even Odds

Exact Approximation--LMAO!

Extra Small

Flat Curve

Full Half

Fuzzy Logic

Half and Half

Larger Half

One Choice

One Pair

One Hundred and Ten Percent

One Hundred Percent Plus

Only Choice

Procedural Variations

Random Logic--BAWahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Random Order

Random Pattern

Randomly Organized

Remaining Variable

Round Corner

Round Edges

Same Difference

Sharp Curve

Smaller Half

Sure Bet

To Infinity and Beyond

Whole Half

Whole Part

Whole some


•The 50-50-90 rule: Any time you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong.
•The shortest distance between two points is how far apart they are.
•There are only three kinds of people; people who can count and people who can't.
•Why don't you pair ‘em up in threes? - Yogi Berra



Ahhhhh, the number three---Father, Son and Holy Ghost!

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

That's not a fact. That's a matter of unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps in your view.
I happen to accept it as fact.

And therein lies the difference between science and faith.

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

That's not a fact. That's a matter of unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps in your view.
I happen to accept it as fact.

And therein lies the difference between science and faith.

Exactly.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

A curious declaration of faith based solely upon Greek and Egyptian mythology. Were it not so common it would be risible. Rather the tears appear first.

---

Unvarnished
Haaretz
Jerusalem Post
The origin of the Yahweh Cult

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

That's not a fact. That's a matter of unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps in your view.
I happen to accept it as fact.

One assumes this august body is open to reviewing your experimental evidence to that effect. A fact can only be founded upon physical evidence. Opinions, being as elbows, may and usually are arbitrary and capricious. One hopes against hope this will not lead to semantic gibberish claiming fact is really opinion but I am prepared to abandon hope.

---

Unvarnished
Haaretz
Jerusalem Post
The origin of the Yahweh Cult

The earth is what it is. It and all the people and other life on behave exactly as it would with no creator at all.

Steve

Except, Steve, for the fact that with no Creator, none of it would exist.

That's not a fact. That's a matter of unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps in your view.
I happen to accept it as fact.

And therein lies the difference between science and faith.

Exactly.

The things in which one has faith are not facts else faith would be unnecessary. The matters of faith in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all in Greek and Egyptian mythology. Faith in such mythologies cannot be considered rational.

---

Unvarnished
Haaretz
Jerusalem Post
The origin of the Yahweh Cult

Matt.....
I have faith.
Faith, I think has already been defined here as belief in something for which no scientific evidence exists to prove.
It resides in one's heart and soul, and cannot be removed by your dissertations or your casual dismissal of such.

As I posted earlier, faith in and of itself is really not a debatable issue.
It is not quantifiable or identifiable other than by the peace that tends to surround those who have it.

One can acquire it if one desires to, but once found, it is very rarely lost.

Best wishes to all who come here.

I think there is nothing more I can add to your discussion.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

After you joined in with the others in belief that Im Guy, I find myself not willing to believe in a thing you post. You lack credibility.

Please provide a link to a post I have made that leads you to believe I have joined in with others in this belief. I cannot recall making such a post, and if you can't find one, please apologize, or it will be you lacking credibility.

ID, no link to support your claim, and no apology. Thanks for confirming it is you that lacks credibility.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...