The Great Debate (religion)


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Message 1221936 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 0:14:30 UTC

This thread is needed, but I am, as usual, too tired or too busy to elaborate my own views at this moment.

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Message 1221947 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 0:25:51 UTC - in response to Message 1221936.

No problem, thanks Sarge. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

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Message 1221966 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 1:08:59 UTC - in response to Message 1221947.

No problem, thanks Sarge. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

I have not even had a chance to read everything posted there today.

Message 1221985 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 2:01:47 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 13:09:42 UTC

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Message 1221994 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 2:10:45 UTC - in response to Message 1221985.

Guy, I too got a batch of PM's. One thing I suggested was that ID has been quite polite in his posts, and while we (all it seems) might disagree with his *interpretation* of his faith, we respect his right to hold his views.

He has not (as far as I can see) engaged in proselytizing, he has simply held forth on the absolute truth of his views. That latter has been seen as kicking sand in face and generated a true storm of reaction.

Message 1222007 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 2:25:23 UTC

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?


Forget about it. The Dem/Libs and other Compromise Types also only want it Their Way or The Highway. Although they try to seem not.

The Academic Educated Types with All Their Degrees and/or Vast Lifetime Self-Education are Worse. These Types Love to use their Down Time to Play With The Lesser Of Us for Their Amusement. Barely Hidden Patronizations while they try to Keep Within The Community Spirit.

Anyways, GOD Is The Creator. GOD being However One Might Think Things Got Created in the First Place.

Poor Darwin. I saw a Wonderful Movie made in 2009 about His Creation. It dealt a lot about his relationship with his Believer Wife and Death of his Daughter and how these Conflicts held back his writing/publishing of The Book. Movie is called Creation.

CreativeDeistNOTDullNando
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Message 1222034 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 3:46:55 UTC

Barry said..."File this under belief, not fact please."

I say..."Already have, right next to atom and blackhole."

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Message 1222035 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 3:48:09 UTC - in response to Message 1222007.

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?


Forget about it. The Dem/Libs and other Compromise Types also only want it Their Way or The Highway. Although they try to seem not.

The Academic Educated Types with All Their Degrees and/or Vast Lifetime Self-Education are Worse. These Types Love to use their Down Time to Play With The Lesser Of Us for Their Amusement. Barely Hidden Patronizations while they try to Keep Within The Community Spirit.

Anyways, GOD Is The Creator. GOD being However One Might Think Things Got Created in the First Place.

Poor Darwin. I saw a Wonderful Movie made in 2009 about His Creation. It dealt a lot about his relationship with his Believer Wife and Death of his Daughter and how these Conflicts held back his writing/publishing of The Book. Movie is called Creation.

CreativeDeistNOTDullNando


Ummm, is it ok to agree with you? [smile]

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Message 1222036 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 3:52:13 UTC

Guy Navarro,

You called me fresh air. Then you went out to get some. LOL! Nice to see you back!

Yes, frustrating. Makes me want to cuss!

Nope, no one touched the math.

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Message 1222040 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 4:11:54 UTC - in response to Message 1221994.

Guy, I too got a batch of PM's. One thing I suggested was that ID has been quite polite in his posts, and while we (all it seems) might disagree with his *interpretation* of his faith, we respect his right to hold his views.

He has not (as far as I can see) engaged in proselytizing, he has simply held forth on the absolute truth of his views. That latter has been seen as kicking sand in face and generated a true storm of reaction.

No he's engaged in the worst type of malingering and I asked him to stop. If he has facts state them. Just say "well if its not this then certain it must be the opposite." thats called begging the question. Its circular logic that employs the idea that because I see A and I can't see another possible reason for it A is correct. The answer isn't Magic as explained to him in length. Absence of knowledge does not make his answer correct either.

His line of thinking is from lack of knowledge or ignorance of the knowledge. If he mistakenly thinks that I called him stupid for being ignorant then well then he needs to learn the difference.

Quite seriously though He could have said Physics is a lie and began arguing with Tullio(he's a Physicist) about how Physics is a lie because it has no basis to exist. or some silliness. Having a Biology major and Chemistry minor in college I can say that his biological and chemical arguments are lacking...from ignorance not stupidity. If I don't understand something its because I've not understood it or lack the experience in it to grasp the concepts.

As stated before the ID or creationist ideal is a faith based belief. It is in no way scientific. No scientific experiments have been done or replicated in a controlled environment nor has the idea been demonstrated in nature other than to have someone say, "Look around you it just has to be." That's nice and all but hardly scientific.
Accusing me of ad hominem attacks. Hardly, Since he decided to bombard us with his facts the only real way to respond was to break it down and respond to each.
On several occassions I was very unsure what exactly he meant. therefore he got a "HUH?" response.

Noticed that I've not used the word chance. Well other than right now. Science isn't chance(2nd and last time). Theories and natural laws are examples of our interpretations of what we have around us. Through DNA we can observe genetic differences in animals and with a certain degree of certainty establish when 2 species went down separate paths.
I recall the Dover school trial where the ID science guys pointed out the flagella of a bacteria being super specialized at that there had to be some sort of ID to create such a radical design. The debunkers pointed out that other bacteria use a similar if not almost identical design but as a miniature spear. It seems when nature finds something that works it reuses it again and again. Of course those were simple examples but clearly the ID guys were assuming much and put the blinders on to make their argument. Again science is not blind and when we continue to look for similarities we are confounded with the amount out there.

All animals and plants have DNA without exception. Why? because it works and has worked for billions of years.

I watched a wonderful show today on Tectonics in North Africa and the Europe. Very interesting to learn that Italy sits on the African Plate. the Northern border of Italy to Switzerland is where the 2 continents have met. These made some interesting geographic changes to the British Isles. Namely, tossing the bedrock on edge or at extreme angles in Southern England/Wales. Hardly something that happens in a day much less a day 6000 years ago.

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Message 1222051 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 4:34:16 UTC

Once again, perception is reality.
Two people "know" two different truths.
From their experience and perceptions,
both are correct.

Only if one can change someones perception, can they change their reality.

Therefore,

All of the gods are real, and none of the gods are real.


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Message 1222052 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 4:37:03 UTC - in response to Message 1222040.

Accusing me of ad hominem attacks. Hardly, Since he decided to bombard us with his facts the only real way to respond was to break it down and respond to each.


Sorry, Skil, but from time to time, some of your responses to people are some of the harshest, whether you intend them to be or not. If not ad homs, I think they may come close. Now in too tired mode and going to bed soon, but if I really have to, I can track some down and PM to you.
That said, none of us are perfect posters, and so I'm not claiming perfection, either.

I watched a wonderful show today on Tectonics in North Africa and the Europe. Very interesting to learn that Italy sits on the African Plate. the Northern border of Italy to Switzerland is where the 2 continents have met. These made some interesting geographic changes to the British Isles. Namely, tossing the bedrock on edge or at extreme angles in Southern England/Wales. Hardly something that happens in a day much less a day 6000 years ago.


I think you can drop the 6000 year old thing. Our poster ID does not accept it, if I read (among all these posts correctly)), and I know some creationists who do not go by it. They did not even know of the claim, believe it or not, nor, stranger still, how the claim came to be made.

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Message 1222054 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 4:38:49 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2012, 4:47:43 UTC

skildude,

I have not engaged in malingering. You have not hurt me in any way. I do see that you have been injured, I detect a tone again, surefire way of me knowing I have touched a nerve. And I should wear gloves when I do that.

My line of thinking is from a logical point that you reject, so be it, amen. But you will not turn around and reject my belief and at the same time use science that you say absolutely has no absolutes, that make you the worst kind of hypocrite.

I'll tell you what, you make something from nothing and I'll buy chance as a happening.

Sure, scientific experiments have been done or replicated in a controlled environment. One swallow does not make a summer~Aristotle----------However, 50 do make a fine summer. 50-Peer-Reviews I DO NOT believe in a 6,000 year universe. AND I HAVE posted that MANY times here so far! Please be more careful while misrepresenting me---I thank you in advance, Sir!

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Message 1222055 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 4:42:11 UTC - in response to Message 1222007.

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?


Forget about it. The Dem/Libs and other Compromise Types also only want it Their Way or The Highway. Although they try to seem not.

The Academic Educated Types with All Their Degrees and/or Vast Lifetime Self-Education are Worse. These Types Love to use their Down Time to Play With The Lesser Of Us for Their Amusement. Barely Hidden Patronizations while they try to Keep Within The Community Spirit.

Anyways, GOD Is The Creator. GOD being However One Might Think Things Got Created in the First Place.

Poor Darwin. I saw a Wonderful Movie made in 2009 about His Creation. It dealt a lot about his relationship with his Believer Wife and Death of his Daughter and how these Conflicts held back his writing/publishing of The Book. Movie is called Creation.

CreativeDeistNOTDullNando


"Dull" ... . Almost everyone ignores you. Though they used to post in your threads, they now steer more and more clear of you. Though I sometimes respond to you a bit harshly or in kind (using your kind of humor), you continue in your assumptions, over-generalizations and insults. You test even my patience. If you came here to discuss, then join the human race and speak with the rest of us. If you came to spew assumptions and over-generalizations, and blather, get yourself a talk show to compete with Rush, or a late night tv comedy show like Conan, Colbert, Maddow or Huckabee. :) Here, it's really wearing thin and soon all you'll hear in response to you is crickets. (Of course, crickets do sound nice ... maybe you can teach them to play violins?)

Message 1222060 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 4:59:51 UTC

"Dull" .....everyone ignores you.


GOD, also Ignores Me. The Devil, maybe Not So Much. So, since GOD Ignores Me, why would I want HIS Creations to Pay Me Mind?

Since I cannot draw, I Speaketh as A Politcal Cartoon. And A Political Cartoon is Full Of:

assumptions, over-generalizations and insults


So, again, Thank You For The Extreme Compliment. And, Sleep Tight, Don't let The Dem/Libs and Creationists Bite.

CartoonDrawingNOTDullNando
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Message 1222097 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 8:29:03 UTC

If you can try and watch a BBC4 program called "The Secret Life of Chaos" by Professor Jim Al-Khalili.

As far as I know it is not available on line at the moment, but it is well worth viewing whatever your views on religion or the sciences.

Re:

I watched a wonderful show today on Tectonics in North Africa and the Europe. Very interesting to learn that Italy sits on the African Plate. the Northern border of Italy to Switzerland is where the 2 continents have met. These made some interesting geographic changes to the British Isles. Namely, tossing the bedrock on edge or at extreme angles in Southern England/Wales. Hardly something that happens in a day much less a day 6000 years ago.

I have also seen this program. Remember I had a thought when this bit was introduced that went,

"Don't people already know this," I was told this when I was about 12, by my Italian school friend Aldo. (I spent most of my school age life in what had been an Italian colony in Africa before WW2) Aldo's family is from north of Milan and regards all people south of Firenza as Africans. When I asked why he said "They have porcupines down there, and everybody knows porcupines are indigenous to Africa not Europe." Ergo southern Italy is part of Africa.

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Message 1222166 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 13:18:37 UTC - in response to Message 1222097.

If you can try and watch a BBC4 program called "The Secret Life of Chaos" by Professor Jim Al-Khalili.
Immensely interesting...



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Message 1222167 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 13:34:11 UTC - in response to Message 1222097.

I was only speaking of science. Not the truth. I don't have the truth with science, I have facts. As cold and hard as they may be they are facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

The lesson one learns in a science class is that nothing is absolute. a multitude of organisms have had their taxonomic names changed because of DNA. The most notable are the bacteria. Microbiologists categorized these organisms by what media they would grow on or in. whether aerobic or anaerobic. what sugars the bacteria would break down etc. They then grouped the bacteria that had similar life needs.

DNA testing has shown that the Microbiologists were pretty spot on. Only minor changes in their names were needed.

What's the point. These scientists used observation and repeatability to get a fairly accurate record of bacterial life. They've done the same with other animal species including us.

We are very closely related to our primate brothers. One might declare, "but they have 48 chromosomes and we only have 46. How can we even remotely be related." because 1 pair of our DNA is actually 2 chromosomes that failed to split properly. Again this is proven by science.

Telomeres are found at each end of a chromosome, except in chromosome 12 which has telomeres inside it structure where the chromosomes failed to separate or it recombined 1000's of years ago. We really don't know when. These are facts.

As a scientist I don't look for truth. I look for facts.
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Message 1222170 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 13:38:51 UTC

We are very closely related to our primate brothers.


Most of us have always felt that. But is is interesting to see some scientific evidence for it.

So who tinkered with the DNA and why, and when?

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Message 1222171 - Posted: 23 Apr 2012, 13:50:51 UTC

It's probably, simply put, one of the random mutations that make us what we are.
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