The Great Debate (religion)

This thread is needed, but I am, as usual, too tired or too busy to elaborate my own views at this moment.

No problem, thanks Sarge. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

Since my last post (when I agreed with BarryAZ), I've seen this thread deteriorate into chaos (as I dealt with a barrage of PMs and allowed everyone in those PMs a last word.)

Intelligent Design has put a lot of thought into his posts, most of them have had a main point or two and the majority of you have parsed words and phrases (off his main point) and Intelligent Design has kept up, for the most part. I've had this happen to me before and it's very frustrating. Seems at times you're just dodging the main point and side tracking just for the fun of frustrating him. (for example, the *math* of the Drake equation.)

Gravity, speed of light.... ya ya, whatever. For those of you who point out these are not constants, or absolute truths, can you give examples of any constants or absolute truths? Or can you give any example of a fact that is independent of time and place?

Murder, abortion.... ya ya, whatever. For those of you who point out there is no right or wrong, do you believe anything is right or wrong?

Seems we have a war between those who see black/white and those who see continously changing shades of gray.

Both sides are asking, basically, "How can you live thinking the way you do when there is so much that suggests the opposite?"

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?

Or is this discussion pointless?

Guy, I too got a batch of PM's. One thing I suggested was that ID has been quite polite in his posts, and while we (all it seems) might disagree with his *interpretation* of his faith, we respect his right to hold his views.

He has not (as far as I can see) engaged in proselytizing, he has simply held forth on the absolute truth of his views. That latter has been seen as kicking sand in face and generated a true storm of reaction.

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?

Barry said..."File this under belief, not fact please."

I say..."Already have, right next to atom and blackhole."

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?

Forget about it. The Dem/Libs and other Compromise Types also only want it Their Way or The Highway. Although they try to seem not.

The Academic Educated Types with All Their Degrees and/or Vast Lifetime Self-Education are Worse. These Types Love to use their Down Time to Play With The Lesser Of Us for Their Amusement. Barely Hidden Patronizations while they try to Keep Within The Community Spirit.

Anyways, GOD Is The Creator. GOD being However One Might Think Things Got Created in the First Place.

Poor Darwin. I saw a Wonderful Movie made in 2009 about His Creation. It dealt a lot about his relationship with his Believer Wife and Death of his Daughter and how these Conflicts held back his writing/publishing of The Book. Movie is called Creation.

CreativeDeistNOTDullNando

Guy Navarro,

You called me fresh air. Then you went out to get some. LOL! Nice to see you back!

Yes, frustrating. Makes me want to cuss!

Nope, no one touched the math.

Guy, I too got a batch of PM's. One thing I suggested was that ID has been quite polite in his posts, and while we (all it seems) might disagree with his *interpretation* of his faith, we respect his right to hold his views.

He has not (as far as I can see) engaged in proselytizing, he has simply held forth on the absolute truth of his views. That latter has been seen as kicking sand in face and generated a true storm of reaction.

Once again, perception is reality.
Two people "know" two different truths.
From their experience and perceptions,
both are correct.

Only if one can change someones perception, can they change their reality.

Therefore,

All of the gods are real, and none of the gods are real.


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Janice

Accusing me of ad hominem attacks. Hardly, Since he decided to bombard us with his facts the only real way to respond was to break it down and respond to each.

I watched a wonderful show today on Tectonics in North Africa and the Europe. Very interesting to learn that Italy sits on the African Plate. the Northern border of Italy to Switzerland is where the 2 continents have met. These made some interesting geographic changes to the British Isles. Namely, tossing the bedrock on edge or at extreme angles in Southern England/Wales. Hardly something that happens in a day much less a day 6000 years ago.

skildude,

I have not engaged in malingering. You have not hurt me in any way. I do see that you have been injured, I detect a tone again, surefire way of me knowing I have touched a nerve. And I should wear gloves when I do that.

My line of thinking is from a logical point that you reject, so be it, amen. But you will not turn around and reject my belief and at the same time use science that you say absolutely has no absolutes, that make you the worst kind of hypocrite.

I'll tell you what, you make something from nothing and I'll buy chance as a happening.

Sure, scientific experiments have been done or replicated in a controlled environment. One swallow does not make a summer~Aristotle----------However, 50 do make a fine summer. 50-Peer-Reviews I DO NOT believe in a 6,000 year universe. AND I HAVE posted that MANY times here so far! Please be more careful while misrepresenting me---I thank you in advance, Sir!

Is there *any* common point from which we can start?

Forget about it. The Dem/Libs and other Compromise Types also only want it Their Way or The Highway. Although they try to seem not.

The Academic Educated Types with All Their Degrees and/or Vast Lifetime Self-Education are Worse. These Types Love to use their Down Time to Play With The Lesser Of Us for Their Amusement. Barely Hidden Patronizations while they try to Keep Within The Community Spirit.

Anyways, GOD Is The Creator. GOD being However One Might Think Things Got Created in the First Place.

Poor Darwin. I saw a Wonderful Movie made in 2009 about His Creation. It dealt a lot about his relationship with his Believer Wife and Death of his Daughter and how these Conflicts held back his writing/publishing of The Book. Movie is called Creation.

CreativeDeistNOTDullNando

"Dull" .....everyone ignores you.

assumptions, over-generalizations and insults

If you can try and watch a BBC4 program called "The Secret Life of Chaos" by Professor Jim Al-Khalili.
Immensely interesting...



____________
The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

I was only speaking of science. Not the truth. I don't have the truth with science, I have facts. As cold and hard as they may be they are facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

The lesson one learns in a science class is that nothing is absolute. a multitude of organisms have had their taxonomic names changed because of DNA. The most notable are the bacteria. Microbiologists categorized these organisms by what media they would grow on or in. whether aerobic or anaerobic. what sugars the bacteria would break down etc. They then grouped the bacteria that had similar life needs.

DNA testing has shown that the Microbiologists were pretty spot on. Only minor changes in their names were needed.

What's the point. These scientists used observation and repeatability to get a fairly accurate record of bacterial life. They've done the same with other animal species including us.

We are very closely related to our primate brothers. One might declare, "but they have 48 chromosomes and we only have 46. How can we even remotely be related." because 1 pair of our DNA is actually 2 chromosomes that failed to split properly. Again this is proven by science.

Telomeres are found at each end of a chromosome, except in chromosome 12 which has telomeres inside it structure where the chromosomes failed to separate or it recombined 1000's of years ago. We really don't know when. These are facts.

As a scientist I don't look for truth. I look for facts.
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Proud member of TSWB.

End terrorism by building a school