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Message 1160664 - Posted: 9 Oct 2011, 18:24:24 UTC - in response to Message 1160012.
Last modified: 9 Oct 2011, 18:24:52 UTC

Michele, with one L. She'll correct you on that. ;-)

...

To say that "I can't be successful because I'm not paid enough by my employer and I didn't receive a large inheritance" is to blame all outside factors and refuse to admit one's responsibility in one's own life.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that everything one endures during their own life outside of their control will negate their ability to be or remain successful, even for a small percentage of the population.


I suspected I would be corrected on the one or two Ls.
As for your last two paragraphs, then it sounds like we're in agreement, except perhaps about the degree to which internal and external factors balance.
As for the last example I posted Friday, using 3 generations was just throwing out a number, but still, success stories do not always occur in one generation.
As for community colleges, as I began my teaching career at one (even though I had just prior been preparing to teach at the secondary level), I can say I do know what some people can manage to pull off, but I also watched others with tremendous struggles.
I do not feel like jumping on the bandwagon of bringing up Steve Jobs and any adversities he experienced as a child for examples. But if he'd been born later, to a crack mom, remember, he might have been low functioning, fairly well functioning ... . But to be born to a crack mom and her drug use not affecting brain functioning, despite genes for genius? Getting a genius in that situation seems much less likely. The nature and nurture debate.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=65731&nowrap=true#1160599

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Message 1160727 - Posted: 9 Oct 2011, 21:12:29 UTC - in response to Message 1160664.
Last modified: 9 Oct 2011, 21:42:35 UTC

As for your last two paragraphs, then it sounds like we're in agreement, except perhaps about the degree to which internal and external factors balance.


I can agree with that. So the next logical step would be to find out which one of us is correct.

As for the last example I posted Friday, using 3 generations was just throwing out a number, but still, success stories do not always occur in one generation.


I understand that it was a randomly selected figure to illustrate that, according to your view, outside factors can delay one's success a few generations. In this day and age, I would largely disagree with that view. There's no outside factor that would prevent someone from getting out of the ghetto as a first generation "crack baby born without defects" other than their own attitude and approach to life (all internal).

As for community colleges, as I began my teaching career at one (even though I had just prior been preparing to teach at the secondary level), I can say I do know what some people can manage to pull off, but I also watched others with tremendous struggles.


Sure, there are people who struggle for various reasons. Of all those reasons, all of them have to do with the person and not outside factors (primarily if they allowed those outside factors to remain obstacles).

I do not feel like jumping on the bandwagon of bringing up Steve Jobs and any adversities he experienced as a child for examples. But if he'd been born later, to a crack mom, remember, he might have been low functioning, fairly well functioning ... . But to be born to a crack mom and her drug use not affecting brain functioning, despite genes for genius? Getting a genius in that situation seems much less likely. The nature and nurture debate.


I used Steve Jobs as an example. Steve was far from a genius. He was a charismatic salesman that demanded devotion to his ideas. I respect what he stood for, but I would not call him a genius. In fact, I used him because he was a normal but driven person that wanted to succeed.

My point in all of this is that you don't have to be exceptional and you don't have to be a genius to better yourself and provide a means to live comfortably based upon the skills you've learned that are valuable to society. Any and all setbacks encountered can be traced back to poor decisions made by the individual and not preparing for outside factors.

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Message 1160762 - Posted: 9 Oct 2011, 23:13:39 UTC

The Reason The Movement Will Fail.

Because The Occupiers/Protesters are The Government. Are The Corporation.

They are Protesting Against Themselves.

In Their Rage they will Learn Nothing.

Blame, Blame, Blame some Other Entity besides Yourselves. And End Up for The Effort, Worse Off Than Before.

And Blame Again Others for it: Government/Wall Street.

Be Frugal Rabble Rousers, be Frugal and Flourish. Otherwise Flounder.

Don't let A Neanderthal be Smarter Than You. It does not take much of A Noggin'.

Dull.

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Message 1160776 - Posted: 10 Oct 2011, 0:20:18 UTC

Target identification. That is what is missing.

If they only understood "fiduciary duty" sigh

Who legislated fiduciary duty? Congress. Who can change it? Congress.

Don't these protesters understand that the CEO's would be in jail if they didn't do "fiduciary duty" and be greedy? It is not something the CEO can change. Are they so ignorant of business? Apparently so!

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Message 1160840 - Posted: 10 Oct 2011, 5:24:37 UTC - in response to Message 1160762.

The Reason The Movement Will Fail.

Because The Occupiers/Protesters are The Government. Are The Corporation.

They are Protesting Against Themselves.

In Their Rage they will Learn Nothing.

Blame, Blame, Blame some Other Entity besides Yourselves. And End Up for The Effort, Worse Off Than Before.

And Blame Again Others for it: Government/Wall Street.

Be Frugal Rabble Rousers, be Frugal and Flourish. Otherwise Flounder.

Don't let A Neanderthal be Smarter Than You. It does not take much of A Noggin'.

Dull.


Transcript:
PICARD: They are not vermin. They are citizens of the Federation. I will not permit this outrage!
SHELIAK: Intelligent converse is impossible. You do not discuss, you gibber.
PICARD: Between intelligent species of good will

[Bridge]

(Picard and Troi are zapped back onto the Bridge in mid sentence)
RIKER: I take it the Sheliak just hung up on us again.

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Message 1160842 - Posted: 10 Oct 2011, 5:48:51 UTC

You do not discuss, you gibber.

I have a PhD in Gibberish. An MS in Gibber-Jabber. And a BS in BS.

Again. Be Frugal and Flourish. Be Not and Flounder.

What's cool is The Duke can't get behind The Movement. His Change is Coming To America did not work. To take up The Occupy Movement would be...well, let The Big Brains Explain It. This New Change Ditty has 'em All Talking.

The First Chapter in The Benjamin Franklin Biography stated it All So Beautifully, on How To Live Life. The Occupy/Wall St. Crowd should Crack Open Some Books.

Again, The Snows Of Winter will be interesting as to how it affects The Movement. Might turn into a Deep South Thang.

Dull.

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Message 1161960 - Posted: 13 Oct 2011, 19:48:11 UTC
Last modified: 13 Oct 2011, 20:18:18 UTC

Me I can sympathize with the 99%, My family came to America in 1850 from Ireland(I have an ancestor who was a Major General in the Union Army during the US Civil War, a contemporary of Major General Custer, Yeah that one), Even though the family and Myself are of French descent that is(there may be some Irish ancestry too, I just don't have that info, if It exists it's in Wexford Ireland somewhere out of My reach). The family was well off through hard work and were getting ahead until about 1929 when that all came crashing down, We had a business built from scratch in Culver City CA(started in 1912), My Grandpa became a Police Chief(appointed cause of the Family Business, not elected) and He later on became a City Councilman(I don't know when though), After that Dad held a job supervising delivery boys as a Route Manager for Newspaper Chain(Copley) and Grandpa opened up a Bicycle Shop after working as a Carpenter for MGM in Culver City CA(the Bicycle Shop still exists to this day I've heard in the City of Palms right where It was started at, MGM Studios are now Sony Studios), both are gone now and all I have are memories and some pics(Culver City in 1912 was mostly an empty place then), We were never a part of the 1%. Me I live out in the desert far from where I was born, I was born with some conditions that were overlooked by a Mom who wanted a perfect child and I became disabled cause of a fall in 2002(I wouldn't wish that on anyone, being disabled or breaking a bone, I didn't become disabled cause I wanted to, rather It was forced on Me by forces I could not control, birth and an accident that I wouldn't wish on anybody) as I'd broken My left leg and dislocated My right hip socket, it went back into place soon after(w/a thunk), I have no credit score or history anymore, I merely exist, I rarely go outside cause of My right knee having gone bad(I climb steps with My left leg only now) and cause I have light skin tone(My brother had the same skin tone as I do, He got skin cancer or carcinoma, He later died in May 2005 from Lung Cancer/Emphysema after being in the Navy for 20 Years in an Engine Room exposed to who knows what), For a long time I thought I was Blond, Turns out I'm a Strawberry Blond, who knew? I live on My own finally after taking care of My Mother until She died of cancer of the mouth(smoking I was told) at the age of 76, I get SSI and the check is not really adequate and although I'd like to rent elsewhere, I really don't have the income for that and I'm considered unemployable by both Government and Private Industry(I asked on My own), So now I do what I can and I make choices on what I do with My income after I pay My few bills(I can choose to replace something or to fix something and only within a narrow window of money), I even skimp on food for dinner just to make ends meet and have some extra money, I don't go out as It's not worth the drive, The SSI FBR needs to be doubled from $674 a month to $1348 and allow Me to save up to $10,000.00 legally(It's been $2,000.00 since 1989) and be able to buy a burial plot and not have It count as a resource against My income(I can die, but I like My Mom will be cremated and lay on someones shelf or worse scattered improperly like My Dads ashes were), all that must be too much to ask for I guess(some I know despise Me for collecting SSI instead of working, heartless and cruel people who only think of themselves), but so far I don't see any effort to do anything other than cut My throat(Rep. Paul Ryan rot in Hell), Meanwhile I wait as I would like to buy a house so that I don't have to climb any steps anymore as I can't afford to pay rent here forever as the owner is being nice to Me and such, But I know He could rent this place for $550.00 a month and I can only pay $320.00 or starve or go without phone and internet and then pay $550.00 a month for rent and that doesn't include electricity, gas or water(trash is included in the rent though). I don't have any debt at least, If My rent went up I'd have to move on to the street and that includes Grace(My big cat), My few living relatives have no room for Me or in the case of My sister in law, says I'm only welcome while Her grown children are there, they are always welcome(My Nephew if He had the room might take Me in, He makes payments on a mobilehome+land that is severely upside down value wise, but He's supporting a diabetic wife and Her autistic son all on His income as a Truck Driver, So there's no room there, the Nieces don't have any room or live with their Mom), She says I'm a stranger and She won't have a stranger living under Her roof(I'd be in Her Prayers She told Me, She became Catholic as did one Niece and My Deceased Brother as He lay dying, She wrote the will and I heard She tried to exclude Me, My Nephew told Me that and His Dad said He would never sign the will If I was excluded(He couldn't be forced, afterall He was dying) I didn't get much in any case as He died poor and too early He was 61, Grandpa died of loneliness at 82 as He outlasted 2 wives, My Great Grandpa died at age 87, prayers are nice and useless, bills and food and new blankets, etc, cost real money, prayers aren't accepted as cash, She's a Republican too, although I don't know who of the crazies She'll vote for though, crazier the better I say, My guess is that She'd vote for Huntsman probably, like He'll get nominated, yeah right, She's no tea partier though at least), So I'd be homeless, Grace She'd take in She said, Like Grace would stay, Without Me (She follows Me around like I'm Her whole world) She would run away looking for Me as She was a stray after having been dumped by someone before the shelter got Her and before I gave Her a loving home, So I can't bear to leave Grace there as I fear She'd get run over or something. So I just wait, as I'm too far away to protest as I just don't have the wherewithal to spare, although the spirit is willing.

When I grew up My parents expected Me to get high school diploma and get a job(just like My Brother did and My Sister was expected to get married, She's dead too, 1999), college was not a part of their life, My Uncle had a degree and Dad didn't like Him, He was a VP at Transamerica(Occidental Life Insurance) Insurance after WWII. So I was poor all of My life and I'm now 51 years old and I'm also Mentally disabled due to the way I was hardwired when I was born, part of My problem when I broke the leg in 2002 stems from the fact that My eyesight was never unlike My older two siblings Mine was never tested, so I slipped and fell, later My Brother paid $40.00 to have My eyes tested and yep sure enough I needed prescription glasses and I have concentration and anxiety problems due to a low output thyroid(hormone pills don't work on Me and some doctors don't see them as being very effective due to absorption problems, they just raised My core body temp, since discontinued), I use a spell checker to correct most errors in what I type, I'm self taught as I have a GED as I'd dropped out of school as I was and I am depressed and being it's My natural state pills have no good effects on My mind.
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Message 1162041 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 0:28:43 UTC

Me I can sympathize with the 99%

As I have read your Journal/Notes in Cafe Seti, most of what you wrote I've seen before. Hope others who have not seen your Journal/Notes, enjoyed the read.

I want Paul Ryan to be President. If not him, then Ron Paul.

The Occupy/Protest Movement will soon go bust. NY Mayor doing some Heavy Lifting on Them tomorrow. Will be an interesting morning.

Yes The Government, Corporations, and Generally anyone Smarter than Most of Us take Unfair Advantage. Such is Life.

Many People who Use Their Noggin' and Not Their Emotions who are not of The One Percent can do Rather Well and Get Around the Obstacles and Unfairness.

Others, well, Dems da Breaks.

I don't know If Ever, A Totally Egalitarian/Altruistic Fair World will Exist.

Getting There will take More Than Phoney Occupations and Protesting.

Dull

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Message 1162235 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 16:39:24 UTC - in response to Message 1161960.

Me I can sympathize with the 99%, ...


As I think I said earlier. Not everyone is born with the same chances. To suggest that people who are poor are to blame is incredibly insulting, as shown by your story and the stories of other people I know.

I consider myself lucky in that I have the health and the ability to support my self and my children. Even so, things have not been easy for me because of things outside my control. I can't imagine being in a situation like my friend who has two disabled children, one severely, and has been trying to get off welfare. The odds against her are huge, she hasn't given up, but no way is she ever going to be wealthy. Anyone who claims it is her fault is an ignorant moron.

I hope this movement to deal with this huge disparity between the super rich and the rest of us gains momentum and some real change comes from it.
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Message 1162236 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 16:42:27 UTC - in response to Message 1160842.

...

The First Chapter in The Benjamin Franklin Biography stated it All So Beautifully, on How To Live Life. The Occupy/Wall St. Crowd should Crack Open Some Books.

...

Dull.


I think you'll find that a lot of them are pretty well educated.
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Message 1162239 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 16:46:51 UTC - in response to Message 1162236.

...

The First Chapter in The Benjamin Franklin Biography stated it All So Beautifully, on How To Live Life. The Occupy/Wall St. Crowd should Crack Open Some Books.

...

Dull.


I think you'll find that a lot of them are pretty well educated.

And really well organized, after almost a month in the Park, they cleaned It up and Mayor Bloomberg after being criticized by 14 City Council Members and 1 Congress Person backed down.
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Message 1162251 - Posted: 14 Oct 2011, 17:54:54 UTC

99% is well ...

A company is hired to clean the park every night. Now they can't. Wonder how many workers have been laid off because the park isn't getting cleaned.


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Message 1162857 - Posted: 16 Oct 2011, 11:24:50 UTC
Last modified: 16 Oct 2011, 11:53:59 UTC

Oh blimey, now we got it as well ...

... Occupy

As I think I said earlier.

You sure you're not related to Harold Wilson?

Not everyone is born with the same chances. To suggest that people who are poor are to blame is incredibly insulting,

That is basically true, but I have found that in a lot of cases, disadvantaged people get to the stage where they can't be bothered and just give up, and resign themselves to a Grade C life.

I consider myself lucky in that I have the health and the ability to support my self and my children. Even so, things have not been easy for me because of things outside my control.

You had a head start on a lot of people by having a good upbringing, an advanced education, and an inbuilt grit to survive. Others even with that background, drop by the wayside.

The odds against her are huge, she hasn't given up, but no way is she ever going to be wealthy. Anyone who claims it is her fault is an ignorant moron.

That is the sort of person that clearly should be helped more than it appears she is being. No-one plans to have disabled children, and it is enough of a tragedy when it does happen, compounded by society not lending a helping hand.

I hope this movement to deal with this huge disparity between the super rich and the rest of us gains momentum and some real change comes from it

There is definitely an upswell of general public opinion that things need to change. Mainly because we seem to be entering into another world recession, and it's not only companies going bust it's countries as well. It's the man in the street that is suffering, whilst the clever rich maintain their status quo.

Any guesses for the first ever worldwide strike?

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Message 1162893 - Posted: 16 Oct 2011, 14:45:03 UTC - in response to Message 1162857.

Oh blimey, now we got it as well ...

... Occupy

As I think I said earlier.

You sure you're not related to Harold Wilson?

Not everyone is born with the same chances. To suggest that people who are poor are to blame is incredibly insulting,

That is basically true, but I have found that in a lot of cases, disadvantaged people get to the stage where they can't be bothered and just give up, and resign themselves to a Grade C life.

I consider myself lucky in that I have the health and the ability to support my self and my children. Even so, things have not been easy for me because of things outside my control.

You had a head start on a lot of people by having a good upbringing, an advanced education, and an inbuilt grit to survive. Others even with that background, drop by the wayside.

The odds against her are huge, she hasn't given up, but no way is she ever going to be wealthy. Anyone who claims it is her fault is an ignorant moron.

That is the sort of person that clearly should be helped more than it appears she is being. No-one plans to have disabled children, and it is enough of a tragedy when it does happen, compounded by society not lending a helping hand.

I hope this movement to deal with this huge disparity between the super rich and the rest of us gains momentum and some real change comes from it

There is definitely an upswell of general public opinion that things need to change. Mainly because we seem to be entering into another world recession, and it's not only companies going bust it's countries as well. It's the man in the street that is suffering, whilst the clever rich maintain their status quo.

Any guesses for the first ever worldwide strike?

Grade C life, Here Repugs want Charity to do the massive job of taking over for Supplemental Security Income(which isn't Social Security and is constitutional and has been since 1937, "promote the General Welfare" is in the Constitution, sure It's in the preamble, and that is a part of the US Constitution still and to go back to the dreadful conditions and sheer robber baron profits of the 19th century, when charity was supposed to solve everything, when that failed, History says State Governments started efforts since the Federal Government either wouldn't or couldn't do the job and then in 1972 SSI was signed into law for every eligible Citizen to join, by then President Richard M. Nixon, a Republican who was every bit the anti communist, He was very compassionate though, He didn't want the USA to return to the cheapskate and uncaring ways of the 19th Century, Where diseases like cholera ran unchecked cause of no clean water or the air and the water were killing people cause of industrial pollution and yet profits by a few were were truly a killing, people back then who were paid pennies a day, worked for corporations, shopped all of what little they earned at the corporate store and lived in miserable(compared to what We have now)corporate shacks, some like the Kochs(David and Crane only) want all of that to return and along with It the power to revolt and be an illegitimate usurper in revolt. As Corporations had their own police forces and were not too far away from having their own private armies. When I grew up I was into US History and yeah It was a taught course that was required for graduation and should be again...

I think some people actually don't know history, those are the ones in the tea party, don't know Yer history, then Yer doomed to repeat it, unless there are enough people around who do, like Me or similar to Me. At one time history says some people hated the Irish, now today You could substitute Irish for Gay or Black for Disabled and It would still be true, as there are still bigoted people out there, Me I'm both Irish and Disabled and French and English, I know what a combo.
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Message 1163087 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 2:44:32 UTC - in response to Message 1162251.

99% is well ...

A company is hired to clean the park every night. Now they can't. Wonder how many workers have been laid off because the park isn't getting cleaned.


Really Gary? That's your argument?

How about the fact that the protesters put raised funds together to pay for the park cleaning themselves?

I also am pretty sure that you are not one of the 1%, so I don't understand why you think the protesters aren't on your side.
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Message 1163106 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 3:46:10 UTC

the protesters aren't on your side.

The Zombies who voted for The Messiah thought they were on The Peoples' Side.

And Look what happened, Is Happening.

No need to List All The Negatives Caused by The Dem/Lib "Change". And The Scandals Now Brewing-Ouch!

Occupation will lead to More Negatives, Scandals, and Pain for The People. Their "Change" will Be Worse than The Change The Messiah and Dem/Libs has Brought To America.

The Occupiers/Protesters will Become The Rioters who will Become The Looters. Looting from Their Own 99%.

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Message 1163116 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 4:59:16 UTC

Wall Street protesters approve ‘Declaration of Occupation’

STATEMENT

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

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Message 1163125 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 6:11:34 UTC

STATEMENT

They...
ad nauseam

Reads like The Messiahs' Speech Writers for The 2008 Election wrote The Statement.

Is all that The "Change" Potus was supposed to Initiate through his Presidency? Sounds like it. And what happened?

Now, what will happen with The New Change Agents, The Occupiers/Protesters?

Precious Little to None.

Just a Bunch of Feel Good. Like how Feel Good it was to Get Behind The Messiah and Vote him in. Remember that day? Ecstasy it was! And Inauguration Day 2009, How Sweet It Was.

Bunch of Messiah Voters trying to Get Back The Feel Good from 3 years ago. Pitiful.

Waiting for The Change. What? It will only happen if We ALL Get Out There and Occupy? You mean I can't sit on My Duff and Reap The Rewards?

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Message 1163150 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 10:54:34 UTC

That is quite a statement you have to admit. They can protest all they want I don't see much changing, the Corporate conglomerates are just too powerful. At best all it will do is maybe slow down their growth a bit.

Maybe a better approach is for all the shareholders in these businesses to bother to turn up to AGM's and vote through changes. Most just tick the box that says appoint the Chairman as a proxy.

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Message 1163238 - Posted: 17 Oct 2011, 16:55:29 UTC - in response to Message 1163150.

That is quite a statement you have to admit. They can protest all they want I don't see much changing, the Corporate conglomerates are just too powerful. At best all it will do is maybe slow down their growth a bit.

Maybe a better approach is for all the shareholders in these businesses to bother to turn up to AGM's and vote through changes. Most just tick the box that says appoint the Chairman as a proxy.

Never underestimate the power of the masses when they are pissed off.
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