Good morning Beets, I just finished reading your updates, I think you will find that as the days go by things will start to settle into place. As was mentioned earlier it might be a good idea for you to go to temple, the presence of others will help you with your grief and they can give you support in a way that we can't here. Thank you for continuing to keep us updated.

Bob

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What you do today you will have to live with tonight

Dear Beets!

Im coming late to visit you in this difficult time.. but i am here now.
Im very sorry for your loss.. This must be a big difference for you..since so much of your time and energy the last months has been used to help your dad, and spend time with him.
Its a challenge to go through such a loss, and it takes
its time.. I just wish for you that you have friends and family to share
it all with, if that is what you want and need.. We are after all so different,
and we all handle this differently.. So noone can say what is wrong or right
in such sircumstances. Be who you are..and do what feels natural for you, and you will come through this time with another dimention in heart. ;-)

All good wishes to you Beets. May you get the strenght you need..

"When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight."
-Kahlil Gibran-


May your dad rest in peace.

Dear Moon,

This is a lovely post and that picture of you is very, very, fine!

Thank You,

and

GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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Good morning Beets, I just finished reading your updates, I think you will find that as the days go by things will start to settle into place. As was mentioned earlier it might be a good idea for you to go to temple, the presence of others will help you with your grief and they can give you support in a way that we can't here. Thank you for continuing to keep us updated.

Bob

Dear Bob!

Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, there is only one congregation left in town; they were too cheap to build a synagogue and prayed in an old church which they have now sold to the City for a huge profit. The leaders of this congregation are users and even vultures imho. I'm very sorry to have to say this, but the bottom line is that I'm better off, by far, to keep my distance from them.

It's so much better to have the company of my dear friends here...you are truly my congregation!!!


GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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Dear Friends...


This Morning's Update:

A delivery of ashes was made to me, but are they Dad's?

Gary called me about 9:15 a.m. and said he'd be delivering it right away. Why didn't he deliver Dad's ashes yesterday morning as agreed? He forgot! Okay, he is semi-retired and works there part-time. Things happen; after all, I forgot too.

Actually, Gary didn't arrive until past noon. Shortly afterwards I called the funeral home and Tamara answered. I asked her a few questions: were the ashes there? Who was the undertaker that went out for them? What time were they brought to the funeral home. She said she didn't want to answer mistakenly, could she put me on hold? The manager of the funeral home came on, Darren is his name. He was defensive and vehement in his tone. Dad's ashes arrived on Monday at 3:00 p.m.; he knows that because he's the one who took delivery, himslef. I was surprised. Up until now, it was the funeral home that made all the deliveries, yet he was telling me that concerning the ashes, it's the cemetary that delivered them. He spoke in a strong voice, as if to intimidate me and as if offended that I could have any possible doubt about the matter. I told him the delivery has not taken place when expected, of course I had some concern two days later. I told him I had been informed by both Gary, and independently by the crematorium worker that the process would take 9 hours. Yet he was now telling me it arrived at 3:00 p.m., some 4 hours later. He said that all he can say is that it arrived at 3:00 and that the ashes were still warm.

I got on the web, found the website for the cemetary and contact numbers. I spoke to a lady who was the Director of the cemetary. She was also the one who came in on Saturday to let Gary in to bring Dad back to the funeral home, you may remember. I asked her if there was any records of the cremation. Is there an identifying number for the ashes, did the cemetary deliver the ashes as I was told, was there a record of the start, finish and delivery times? Yes, to all of these. She put me on hold and had one of the crematorium staff go to the Columbarium and look up the records.

Dad's cremation is listed by them as starting at 11:00 a.m. (it was closer to 11:15 but close enough. The ashes were fully burnt by 3:15 p.m. They were cooled off enough to deliver by 4:00 p.m. There was an identifying number and it was inscribed on a metal disk (medalion) that would be inside the plastic bag with the ashes. It takes 20-30 minutes to make the drive from the cemetary to the funeral home, so Dad's ashes would have arrived at about 4:20 to 4:30 p.m. They were delivered to a "Cherryl" (the secretary) says their delivery note. I got the lady administrator to send me an email of those facts, as well as mail me a photocopy of the journal page by snail mail.

Darren the manager told me he took delivery at 3:00 p.m., but that's impossible. Either that, or the cemetary records are wrong. And did he take delivery or the secretary Cherryl? Perhaps he took it or they were both together..but why did she sign if he took the delivery? It's curious, and there is some contradiction in the facts as related by the funeral home and by the cemetary.

Here's another odd thing: both Gary last week, and the cremation worker on Monday said that the process would take 9 hours. Why. Obviously the whole thing was finished and ready for delivery at 4:00 p.m. If I had known that, I would have had Gary deliver Dad's ashes to me on Monday afternoon. I only agreed to wait until Tuesday morning because of being told the ashes would not be ready until 9 hours later, (a long time to wait).

And Gary finally arrived with the ashes today at about 12:20 p.m., two days later.

So I haven't been very pleased about all that. I told Gary forthrightly about Darren's discrepancies. Darren was somewhat defensive too, but I reassured him that I'm good people and not looking out to cause trouble. I just want to be satisfied that it was Dad's ashes I was receiving.

We opened the container and there I saw the ashes in their plastic bag. I did not see the medalion showing the identity number though. Gary was surprised, said he didn't even know the cemetary puts in a medalion. I said that was the cemetary's procedure to ensure they were delivering what was expected.

Gary took out the receipt for the ashes asking me to sign it. I read it. I was certifying that I was entitled to take the ashes, that it was the ashes of Dad, that I recieved delivery of them, that I agreed to forever release the funeral home of any claims, that I agreed to indemnify the funeral of any costs, damages or claims made against them.

I told Gary that I couldn't sign this as is. I would have to make ammendments. He wasn't happy about that but I went ahead and did that. Instead of certifying that the ashes were of Dad, I added "purported to be" of Dad, and initialled that. I crossed out the release paragraph and initialed that, I crossed out the indemnity paragraph and initialed that. Gary unhappily said he could take the ashes back if I didn't want to sign it. I asked him, "Is that what you want to do?". He said no. So I signed the ammended document and gave it to him. "Do I get a copy?" I asked. "No", he said. I asked Gary to send me a copy in the mail; he said that he would see that that was done. I assured him I was not looking to cause trouble for him or the funeral home. I asked him again why he didn't deliver them on Monday afternoon. He said again that he thought it would take 9 hours. I told him I remembered that and that the crematorium worker said so too, so that was my understanding too. Why would I have waited until the next day if I had know they would be ready to deliver Monday afternoon? I thanked Gary again for his very fine services and we shook hands. He left with the ammended document and the ashes stayed with me.

I think Gary (and probably Darren) are a bit hurt by my less than full faith in the funeral home, but things did not go as planned, and there were contradictions and discrepancies.

But there was some good news too. The box had Dad's name on it and the proper ID number. The crematorium receipt also shows the right number. My gut feeling is (and this is very important) that it is Dad alright. :]

Still, all this has taken time and blown my plans for the day. I'll eat something for lunch, I'll take a nap, and then I'll see if I can salvage part of the day for errandss. Dad's ashes I've placed on top of a nice wooden bookcase I have filled with leather boxed copies of the National Geographic magazine going back decades, the spot closest to the large framed photo with gallery light I have of Mom.

Things never quite go as you expected in life, do they.


GOOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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. . . Rest Well Sir

> i had a similar situation occur with the Passing of My Brother Mark - and to add

to your comments regarding 'whether OR not' the ashes are indeed those of the respective Party . . .

there is NO DNA evidence in a Cremation - so i have Never actually been able to tell IF indeed it was My Brother . . . oh well - what to do

> Maybe in the Future - we shall provide a Means of doin' just that - Providing Evidence to Said Matters

< Well - the Lady J & i Wish All the Best for You

. . . keep the Faith Beets

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BOINC Wiki . . .

Science Status Page . . .

Hi Beets, this is where your trust in other people is tested to the limit. You have to trust that the Crematorium & the Funeral Home did the jobs that you are paying them to do. You need to clear any doubts now otherwise you will always have doubts.

I am sure they did things right. It would cause them more trouble than they could afford if they were found doing things wrong.

Stay strong Beets!

Best wishes,

Andy.

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A similar call from me as Andy makes, Beets. Especially with the ID you know should be there on the box with the ashes.

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

. . . Rest Well Sir

> i had a similar situation occur with the Passing of My Brother Mark - and to add

to your comments regarding 'whether OR not' the ashes are indeed those of the respective Party . . .

there is NO DNA evidence in a Cremation - so i have Never actually been able to tell IF indeed it was My Brother . . . oh well - what to do

> Maybe in the Future - we shall provide a Means of doin' just that - Providing Evidence to Said Matters

< Well - the Lady J & i Wish All the Best for You

. . . keep the Faith Beets

I'm doing exactly that, Richard.

With friends like your Good self, it's certainly easy! :]]

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Hi Beets>

Sorry about your loss.

You're Dad made a Grand Exit, on his own terms.
To live to be 95, admit that dying ain't for Sissies,
never be relegated to an institutionalized setting,
and have someone see him off, well there's not many
of us that will see that happen. You should take strength
from his example. The rest of the world can take a hike,
"Live on your own Terms".

guido.man

Hi guido.mean!

Thanks very much for your post!!!

Yes, Dad made it to the age of 97 1/2, and did it on his own terms, just like you say. Like every son, I'll do my best to follow in his better footsteps.

It was a heartbreaker that I tried so very hard...and actually succeeded...in having him accepted at that other, best hospital, and then suddenly, in two short days, he was lost. :]]

I had really wanted to see him live to be 100, but it was not to be. I'll come to terms with that over time. Meanwhile, I take some consolation from the fact that he lived longer than anyone in our family, both sides of it. I'm proud of him for that accomplishment, as I'm sure he's proud of me.

Thanks again, guido!!!


GOD BLESS!!! (please don't be offended if your not a religious person)


Beets

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Hi Beets, this is where your trust in other people is tested to the limit. You have to trust that the Crematorium & the Funeral Home did the jobs that you are paying them to do. You need to clear any doubts now otherwise you will always have doubts.

I am sure they did things right. It would cause them more trouble than they could afford if they were found doing things wrong.

Stay strong Beets!

Best wishes,

Andy.

Dear Andy (and you too, John),

I have no doubt that Dad is with me in the sitting room in my house. My faith is not so much in the institutions, (there have been some terrible scandals with funeral homes, and and awful crematorium mass fraud not so long ago in Georgia) with their inaccurate 'facts' and contradictions. My faith is in Dad and in the Good Lord.

It's irrational, and impossible to explain, but I have no doubt whatsoever. You see, ashes or not, I recognize Dad!!! It's that simple, though I couldn't tell you what sense or senses account for that.

Darren the manager called me twice today. I think he's privately plenty worried about Gary having turned over the ashes to me in return for a document that does nothing to absolve the funeral home for liability. At a quick guess, if I were a bad person, I could simply remove any medallion (assuming there is one there). I could then successfully sue them for $40,000-$60,000 for negligence causing mental pain and suffering, trauma, distress and nightmares in their misinforming me from the fact that I only had to wait there 4 hours to take Dad's ashes home with me on the spot, that they unacceptably failed to deliver the ashes for two days, that they failed to take due diligence to inspect the ashes on Monday for the correct crematorium ID number medallion, yada yada yada. If I were to even sue, their business would suffer a severe blow, be scandalized in the newspapers etc. They would be forced to settle to avoid that.


But I am not a bad person. In fact, after a few days rest, I will visit the funeral home and sign their contract in its original legalese protecting form. As I explained to Darren, Dad just arrived home to be with me and I just don't want to disturb his ashes today.

Do I have faith that I recognize Dad? You betcha! :]]

My only question is (given my training and the circumstances) should I disturb Dad's ashes at all, just to look for the medallion? What do you think?


Thanks, both of you, for your excellent advice!


GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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Beets,

Somethings you have to take some things on faith, there is no reason for the people at the cemetery or thr funeral home to want to do any thing with your fathers ashes. I had cancer and had to have my left leg amputated. Some of what I learned from that experience includes:

1. Except that the people you are dealing with are honorable and that you have your father ashes. You followed much farther into the procedure than anyone that I have even heard of anyone doing. If you do not try to do this you will never be at peace.

2. That while this is one of the most tramatic events of your life, the people you are dealing with, see people dealing with the loss of a love one everyday, and come to accept that you will get through it. They are not being callous they just, may not be as sensetive as you would hope.

From what you have told us Gary,and many other people went the extra mile to make the loss of your father as easy as possible. Most of your doubts, and what you are feeling is part of the natural grief process.

My experience was 38 years ago, so it is possible that I have forgotten all of the pain and hurt; and just remember all of the people who helped get through a very bad time.

Please accept this sermon as the effort of one friend trying to help another.

Pellinore

Hi Beets.
If you want to know if there is a medallion in your fathers ashes without disturbing them...run a metal detector over them. I'm sure you will know someone you can borrow one from.

And remember that your sensitivity to things is a normal reaction to the stress and grief you have been experiencing.

Take care Beets and thank you for sharing your life with us. You are not alone.

Beets,

Somethings you have to take some things on faith, there is no reason for the people at the cemetery or thr funeral home to want to do any thing with your fathers ashes. I had cancer and had to have my left leg amputated. Some of what I learned from that experience includes:

1. Except that the people you are dealing with are honorable and that you have your father ashes. You followed much farther into the procedure than anyone that I have even heard of anyone doing. If you do not try to do this you will never be at peace.

2. That while this is one of the most tramatic events of your life, the people you are dealing with, see people dealing with the loss of a love one everyday, and come to accept that you will get through it. They are not being callous they just, may not be as sensetive as you would hope.

From what you have told us Gary,and many other people went the extra mile to make the loss of your father as easy as possible. Most of your doubts, and what you are feeling is part of the natural grief process.

My experience was 38 years ago, so it is possible that I have forgotten all of the pain and hurt; and just remember all of the people who helped get through a very bad time.

Please accept this sermon as the effort of one friend trying to help another.

Pellinore

Hi Pellinore!

Thanks for the good advice! But just to make sure how that impacts on my last question, your advice is to take it all on faith and not even look for the medallion.

Is that right?

Thanks for clarifying!


GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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Hi Beets.
If you want to know if there is a medallion in your fathers ashes without disturbing them...run a metal detector over them. I'm sure you will know someone you can borrow one from.

And remember that your sensitivity to things is a normal reaction to the stress and grief you have been experiencing.

Take care Beets and thank you for sharing your life with us. You are not alone.

Hi Monday!

Well that's an ingenious answer, it never even ocurred to me! Thanks!!!

Although (I'm nitpicking here, forgive me) it shows that there is a medallion, but it still doesn't fully show that it's the right person's ashes..because it doesn't show the identifying number. Right?

But..that's very clever! Congrats!!!


Thanks for the kind words, Monday! :]]


GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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When my grandfather died his wishes were to have his ashes mixed with his wife then sprinkled over his garden. As no one else wanted to do it I volunteered.
At no stage did I feel like I was disturbing them or disrespecting them.
My advise is, if you need to check the medallion, do so.

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Join Calm Chaos

Beets, all the metal detector will tell you is if there is a metal object on the urn. It will tell you nothing more if you wish to verify the medallion you will need to open the urn and check it visually. Unless you can get someone to xray it then it would show the medallion but it might not show the number on it.
Stay strong and ask the Lord to help you through this. I know you will make it just fine.

Bob

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What you do today you will have to live with tonight

My advice is to do what you feel is right. You know better than anyone else what would be the right thing to do and what your father would have wanted. The bottom line is if you need to check and be sure that the medallion is there then you should do so. Just keep strong and you will make it through this situation just fine.

God Bless you.

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Beets,

You can check for the medalion if you feel that need, but what will you do if you find that it is not right? Your father has already gone to a better place. He may be checking on you, but trust that you have his ashes. I am sure that he wants you to start to heal. I think that if he was there he would tell you to call your dancing partner and to start to look for the joy in life.

Remember that it is almost spring, time to start the cycle of new life and renewal. There is a book called "Good Grief" it was writen by a Christian Pastor, but it expains how we work thru the grief proccess, and that is the same no matter what our religious beliefs. You might check your local book store it may help throught this painful time.

Pellinore

Dear Friends...


Thank you very much for these fine observations, for explaining to me that some of my suspicions and severe investigative behavious (compared with the norm) are a symptom of grief, about the unlikelihood that neither the crematory nor the funeral home had any reason to fool me. That's very insightful. And yet, some suspicion persists.

The most interesting point in this is: that I was told by two seperate parties (Gary, and then the crematorium worker on Monday) that the cremation process would take 9+ hours. That is false, and the crematorium worker must've known that! The process takes a little over 4 hours.

Why the difference? And why would two people from two completely seperate businesses give me the identical piece of misinformation?

I'll tell you what I think. I think that the crematorium workers have been putting out this false misinformation for a long time now. Why? Probably, because they don't want people waiting around until the cremation work is finished. Why not? My best guess is, that insurance companies demand, for underwriting that expensive Columbarium building, that no visitor or grieving relative be left on the crematorium unsupervised. We're talking about extremely powerful fire-creating equipment. Is it a higher fire risk to leave it with unattended customers near those various dials and buttons? From a fire insurance underwritier's perspective: You betcha!

Nobody is willing to wait around 9+ hours. That means that the crematorium-workers/gardening-staff can get on with their work, without having to babysit anyone.

That also explains (even without collusion) why the undertakers would have the exact same misinformation: 9+ hourrs. They get it from the same source: the crematorium worker level.

When I mentioned 9+ hours to the cemetary lady administrator, she corrected me immediately to the 4 hours, plus "a short time cooling off period". The workers mislead but the Administrators come clean. Plausible deniability? Worker-level collusion against the demands of management? (Administrator: "If someone wants to wait it out, you stay with them..all the time!" Worker: "Yes Ma'am!") Which way it goes down, I simply don't know.

Here's Gary, my undertaker, wrongly believing that it takes 9+ hours. He was surprised to learn that there IS such a thing as a numbered medallion (I saw his face, he was surprised). And he's been in the business for over 22 years, semi-retired already. His source of cremation information is primarily from the cremation workers, not from the Administrators.


The misinformation works! And I got suckered into not-waiting, just like everybody else does. This one's my fault, for not being willing to wait the "9+ hours". I'm not beating myself up about it, but that's the truth.


Is there a flaw in my reasoning? Does anybody have a better explanation for what happened? Please let me know, I appreciate learning.


Now, all of this is besides the point, and part of the symptoms of my grieving, as several of you have kindly pointed out. But I just wanted to share my thinking with you, see if you had any better ideas on how this happened.


GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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Beets,

You can check for the medalion if you feel that need, but what will you do if you find that it is not right? Your father has already gone to a better place. He may be checking on you, but trust that you have his ashes. I am sure that he wants you to start to heal. I think that if he was there he would tell you to call your dancing partner and to start to look for the joy in life.

Remember that it is almost spring, time to start the cycle of new life and renewal. There is a book called "Good Grief" it was writen by a Christian Pastor, but it expains how we work thru the grief proccess, and that is the same no matter what our religious beliefs. You might check your local book store it may help throught this painful time.

Pellinore

Hi Pellinore!

I'm sorry about that gloomy post last night, I should've replied to this instead.

What would I do if I discovered no medallion? Continue to take it on faith that I have Dad home with me. :]]

That "Good Grief" book sounds really interesting; I'll see next week if I can locate it at the library/bookstores.

Thanks for reminding me..it's good to know that spring, the time of new life and renewal, is coming. I needed that! :]]


GOD BLESS!!!


Beets

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