Religious Thread [8] - CLOSED

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Profile Carl Cuseo
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Message 421489 - Posted: 16 Sep 2006, 2:06:08 UTC

Recent statements by the Pope of Rome
Are so dangerously idiotic-
He sounds almost almost as moronic as GWB

Are these two jerks in cahoots?
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Message 421503 - Posted: 16 Sep 2006, 2:37:54 UTC - in response to Message 421489.  

He sounds almost almost as moronic as GWB

Now that sounds demeaning, if not outright creepy.
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Message 421581 - Posted: 16 Sep 2006, 4:30:20 UTC

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Message 421583 - Posted: 16 Sep 2006, 4:36:14 UTC - in response to Message 420616.  

It's interesting, but when I look at different 'religions', some have had a tradition of trying to convert and others have not. [snip] but others, such as Islam do.

That's odd because the Qur'an itself states that Jews are to continue following the Torah and that Christians are to continue following the Gospels...

Maybe you should read it sometime... ;)

Then why did conversion "by the sword" become so popular with Islam during the eighth century and there after? Hmmm
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Message 421625 - Posted: 16 Sep 2006, 6:04:50 UTC - in response to Message 421583.  

Then why did conversion "by the sword" become so popular with Islam during the eighth century and there after?

I dunno... Maybe they had 'reading comprehension' issues... ;)
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Message 422223 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 3:31:33 UTC
Last modified: 17 Sep 2006, 4:08:17 UTC

How to look for terrorists:
As you may already know, it is a sin for a Muslim terrorist to see any woman
other than his wife naked, and that he must commit suicide if he does.
So Sunday at 4 p.m. eastern time all American women are asked to
walk out of their house completely naked to help weed out any
neighborhood terrorists. Circling your block for one hour is recommended
for this anti-terrorist effort. All men are to position themselves in
lawn chairs in front of their house to prove they are not Muslim terrorists, and
to demonstrate they think it's okay to see nude women other than their
wife and to show support for all American women. Since Islam also does
not approve of alcohol, a cold 6-pack at your side is further proof of
your anti-terrorist sentiment. The American government appreciates your
efforts to root out terrorists and applauds your participation in this
anti-terrorist activity.
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Message 422237 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 4:48:22 UTC
Last modified: 17 Sep 2006, 4:48:48 UTC

I think someone is confusing 'Muslim' with 'Terrorist' again...
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Message 422239 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 4:52:28 UTC - in response to Message 422237.  

I think someone is confusing 'Muslim' with 'Terrorist' again...

No confusion. Just a mass forward I got in email.
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Message 422249 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 7:31:31 UTC - in response to Message 422239.  

Just a mass forward I got in email.

Thanks for sharing! Apparently the 'mass' are still living in ignorance... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 422266 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 11:00:42 UTC

I think Muslim terrorists are only likely to observe 'chivalry' towards Muslim women. I don't know if they care very much what they do to non-Muslim women since all non-Muslims are regarded by these extremists as 'Kafirs' or non-believers. They would probably attack these women rather than hurt themselves.
'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
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Message 422373 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 17:51:35 UTC - in response to Message 422266.  
Last modified: 17 Sep 2006, 17:58:06 UTC

I think Muslim terrorists

Don't you mean 'rich terrorists'...

Sure there are Muslims blindly following their leader... But there are just as many Americans blindly following their leader too...

Maybe you haven't heard:

Both leaders ARE RICH... And most their followers seem to be of the ignorant type... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 422378 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 18:18:22 UTC - in response to Message 422249.  

Just a mass forward I got in email.

Thanks for sharing! Apparently the 'mass' are still living in ignorance... ;)

I read it as a joke email. Did you take it seriously and fall for it?
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Message 422488 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 22:26:15 UTC - in response to Message 420997.  

If all religious belief were swept away, I am not sure if the world would be a better place. When I see the atrocities that have been committed in the name of secular ideologies, such as Communism or Nazism, or what has been done in the name of politics or social engineering, I think it is a mistake to make such a bogey out of religion.




Don't we have to wonder why religion exists in the fIrst place? What particular need was served by the worship of whichever god or gods, (notice the lower case!) Control of the weather, hunting, fire etc., etc., etc. The list is endless, WE invented god, we have such a fear of non-being that we have to have something to explain our existence - OK guys, we either die and go on to our great reward, or we we just die! Who came back (exclusive of jesus) and said there was a beter place to go to! Proof please!

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Message 422557 - Posted: 17 Sep 2006, 23:50:48 UTC - in response to Message 422488.  

If all religious belief were swept away, I am not sure if the world would be a better place. When I see the atrocities that have been committed in the name of secular ideologies, such as Communism or Nazism, or what has been done in the name of politics or social engineering, I think it is a mistake to make such a bogey out of religion.




Don't we have to wonder why religion exists in the fIrst place? What particular need was served by the worship of whichever god or gods, (notice the lower case!) Control of the weather, hunting, fire etc., etc., etc. The list is endless, WE invented god, we have such a fear of non-being that we have to have something to explain our existence - OK guys, we either die and go on to our great reward, or we we just die! Who came back (exclusive of jesus) and said there was a beter place to go to! Proof please!


Buddha did not preach that there was a God, as you probably know. But I think God is a bit of a limiting word, like the word, 'religion.' I think words can be misleading. Maybe that is why the Buddha remained silent when his disciples pressed him about the meaning of life. Buddha thought that such questions were fruitless because they did not lead to Enlightenment or inner Truth. (Please correct me if I am wrong since I am not a practising Buddhist). Yet there seem to be some people who still regard Buddhism as a religion. If it is, it is not a religion that adheres to a god, although I believe it has some lesser gods.

'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Message 422675 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 2:21:43 UTC

Muslims given pope's 'regrets' but no apology
5 churches hit; insurgents vow suicide attacks


By Frances D'Emilio
ASSOCIATED PRESS

September 17, 2006

VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI “sincerely regrets” offending Muslims with his reference to an obscure medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam's founder as “evil and inhuman,” the Vatican said yesterday.

But the statement stopped short of the apology demanded by Islamic leaders around the globe, and anger among Muslims remained intense.

Palestinians attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza yesterday over the pope's speech Tuesday to university professors in his native Germany. No one was hurt in the string of firebombings and shootings.

An Iraqi insurgent group threatened the Vatican with a suicide attack over the pope's remarks on Islam, according to a statement posted yesterday on the Web.

“We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life,” said the message, posted in the name of the Mujahedeen Army on a Web site frequently used by militant groups. The message's authenticity could not be independently verified. The statement was addressed to “you dog of Rome” and threatens to “shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home.”

In a broader talk rejecting any religious motivation for violence, Benedict cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as “evil and inhuman,” particularly “his command to spread by the sword the faith.”

The pontiff did not endorse that description, but he did not question it, and his words set off a firestorm of protests across the Muslim world.

The new Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said the pope's position on Islam is unmistakably in line with Vatican teaching that says the church “esteems” Muslims.

Benedict “thus sincerely regrets that certain passages of his address could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful and should have been interpreted in a manner that in no way corresponds to his intentions,” Bertone said in a statement.

He noted that earlier during his German trip, Benedict warned “secularized Western culture” against holding contempt for any religion or believers.

Bertone said the pontiff sought in his university speech to condemn all religious motivation for violence, “from whatever side it may come.” But the pope's words only seemed to fan rage.

Bertone's statement, released yesterday by the Vatican press office, failed to satisfy critics, although British Muslim leaders said it was a welcome step.

Mohammed Bishr, a senior Muslim Brotherhood member in Egypt, said the statement “was not an apology” but a “pretext that the pope was quoting somebody else as saying so-and-so.”

“We need the pope to admit the big mistake he has committed and then agree on apologizing, because we will not accept others to apologize on his behalf,” Bishr said.

There was no indication whether the pope would do so. His first public appearance since his return from Germany was set for today, when Benedict planned to greet the faithful at Castel Gandolfo, the papal summer residence in the Alban Hills near Rome.

Morocco recalled its ambassador to the Vatican yesterday to protest the pope's “offensive” remarks, and Afghanistan demanded that the pope apologize.

Turkey cast some doubt on whether Benedict could proceed with a planned visit in November in what would be the pontiff's first trip to a Muslim nation.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan insisted that the pope apologize to the Muslim world, saying he had spoken “not like a man of religion but like a usual politician.”
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Message 422736 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 5:36:02 UTC
Last modified: 18 Sep 2006, 5:38:20 UTC

Pope John Paul II will be dearly missed for a long time to come... ;)

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 422821 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 13:07:15 UTC

I'm not saying the world would be a perfect utopia without religion, but it would be a LOT nicer of a place without it. When you don't have religion, what do you use? You use science that demands practical and deep thinking, not turning to some text from the middle ages for your answer. Geez - why don't religious people come 1000 years CLOSER to the modern age and use Shakespeare for their morality answers instead?!?
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Message 422822 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 13:12:45 UTC

Science has given us more answers than any other system of knowledge. And as far as I know, there have never been any wars fought over it, although wars have certainly been fought WITH it, i.e. new technology if you like. Perhaps science will one day help us to understand our subjective world, who knows.


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Message 422925 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 18:39:55 UTC - in response to Message 422821.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2006, 18:42:06 UTC

why don't religious people come 1000 years CLOSER to the modern age and use Shakespeare for their morality answers instead?!?

Because Shakespeare didn't offer us the gift of eternal life... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 422938 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 19:40:58 UTC

And then there is this...


Does the Koran really promise Islamic martyrs 72 virgins?
14-Dec-2001


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Cecil:

There's been a lot of talk about how the hijackers who destroyed the World Trade Center expected to receive 72 virgins (or 70 or 50, depending on whom you listen to) in paradise. Is this really true? (That they expected this, I mean, not that they'll receive it.) It seems a rather unsophisticated and juvenile theology: "In heaven you can eat all the ice cream you want and stay up past ten o'clock and it's always recess." Is there any Koranic basis for believing that those who kill and die for the faith will get the aforementioned virgins? --J. Haas

Cecil replies:
I realize I'm treading on dangerous ground here. But I figure, Salman Rushdie got a fatwa, and I want one too.

A couple observations. First, nonfundamentalist Muslims don't take the cosmological parts of the Koran any more literally than nonfundamentalist Christians take the biblical story of Genesis. They understand the bits about virgins and so on as metaphors for the ineffable joys of the afterlife. Second, while dreams of celestial babes may motivate the impoverished Palestinian kids who blow themselves up on Israeli street corners, a number of the 9-11 terrorists were older and had known something of earthly delights. That these middle-class types nonetheless were suicidal fanatics is yet another indication that we've entered a scary new phase.

Now to your question. The difficulty in determining what the Koran has to say about virgins and such is establishing what the Koran says, period. Translators vary widely in their rendering of the spare and often opaque text. For example, we find the following passage in a Web-based version of Islam's holy book (www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm): "Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34). Whoa, one thinks--the Kingdom of Heaven meets the Playboy Advisor! However, most other English translations, both on-line and in print, replace "full-breasted maidens" with some tame construction such as "companions." Inquiring further, we find that the Arabic word at issue is WakawaAAiba, which appears nowhere else in the Koran. The French, less prudish in these matters, usually render it as something like des belles aux seins arrondis, "beautiful women with round breasts," so I think it's pretty clear what the Prophet, or at least his stenographers, had in mind.

Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."

A little hype from the marketing department, you may say. Fine. Let's return to the Koran, Islam's font of religious authority. Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows. (In fairness to the Prophet, the physical quality usually attributed to the houris, as they're called, is "wide lovely eyes.") The food, service, ambience., etc, are great. You're allowed to enjoy things the Koran explicitly denies you on earth, such as alcohol, and you won't even get sick. ("Wine . . . delicious to those who drink it . . . will neither dull their senses nor they will become drunk.") Granted, the whole thing is skewed toward the male idea of a good time, a defect by no means confined to Islam. Were Muhammad to found a religion today, I'm confident that each female arrival in heaven would be assigned a comely stud who would provide fabulous sex and in addition hang the curtain rods the first time he was asked. Granted, also, the emphasis on virgins is a little weird. (Think back on the first nights you've been party to. Was this your idea of great sex?) Still, you have to admit, heaven as Party Central sure beats the Christian idea of angels with harps.

Does this make Islamic cosmology "unsophisticated and juvenile"? Maybe. (Oh, let's not be lame about this. Of course it does.) But don't be too quick to judge. Christianity, after all, invented the idea of paradise in the first place. Looking at things from the point of view of a cynical materialist, which is the more outrageous proposition--luring the proles with the promise of eternal life, or throwing 72 virgins into the bargain?

--CECIL ADAMS



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Message boards : Politics : Religious Thread [8] - CLOSED


 
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