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Damn You People Using Boinc 4.13
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Author | Message |
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Jim Baize Send message Joined: 6 May 00 Posts: 758 Credit: 149,536 RAC: 0 |
If memory serves me correctly when they had this problem it affected more than just the occasional WU, therefore it wouldn't even get to the point of being uploaded by anyone to even get validated. Jim If so it's a real pity. |
Kevin Beasley Send message Joined: 27 Aug 99 Posts: 15 Credit: 5,059,412 RAC: 16 |
It may well be like myself (a few weeks ago) that they do not know that there is a "better" version available to them. |
Bill Barto Send message Joined: 28 Jun 99 Posts: 864 Credit: 58,712,313 RAC: 91 |
If so it's a real pity. The newer versions don't have the problem with network induced errors. All people have to do is update their BOINC clients. |
Astro Send message Joined: 16 Apr 02 Posts: 8026 Credit: 600,015 RAC: 0 |
Seti would sent out emails in Classic when the Application version changed. It didn't then have a Boinc Manager or Core Client. I haven't seen notes or anything else telling member to update and I think they should do something. Hopefully, when 5.01 (or some number) comes out the Major Version change will "Require" the users to upgrade since major version 4 core clients will no longer be able to get work, and then the users will ask "why can't I get work", or "why am I getting this message about "you are using major version 4 and need to upgrade to version 5 clients". After problems with the upgrade to version 4.14, the devs furiously churned out one beta client after another, and if I remember correctly it only took them about a week to get up to 4.19. All versions prior to and including 4.19 do NOT use a GUI (graphical user interface). All versions after it DO contain the option of a GUI. They probably keep 4.19 around as an option to allow US a choice. Then Starting with 4.35 JM7 (John Mcleod 7) developed and implemented the "New Scheduler" which makes choices for us as to what to crunch next, how much work to get, When to get new work, and when to report it. I hope this history helps some understand. tony |
Jord Send message Joined: 9 Jun 99 Posts: 15184 Credit: 4,362,181 RAC: 3 |
I hate to say it, Tony, but the Windows version at least has always had a GUI. It hasn't had the seperation of Boinc and the Boincmanager as we have it since 4.35. But prior to that, if you started up BoincGUI.exe Boinc would start with the GUI. Some versions came with a seperate BoincCLI.exe .. yep, the Command Line Interface version of the same program. What is now Boinc.exe |
Kevin Beasley Send message Joined: 27 Aug 99 Posts: 15 Credit: 5,059,412 RAC: 16 |
Seti would sent out emails in Classic when the Application version changed. It didn't then have a Boinc Manager or Core Client. I haven't seen notes or anything else telling member to update and I think they should do something. Hopefully, when 5.01 (or some number) comes out the Major Version change will "Require" the users to upgrade since major version 4 core clients will no longer be able to get work, and then the users will ask "why can't I get work", or "why am I getting this message about "you are using major version 4 and need to upgrade to version 5 clients". Tony, Thanks for the history lesson - most appreciated. Okay, so here's Suggestion One - why doesn't the SETI team email everyone when there is a new version available? That would mean that most people would switch over as soon as they could. After all, they have all our email addresses. Second Suggestion, when they release the next version, why don't they make the WUs twice the size? There's probably some sound explanation that I'm sure some kind soul can put in words of one syllable for me, but to my way of thinking, wouldn't that mean less splitting of the tapes and less loading on the servers of people uploading and downloading as they'd being doing it less frequently? Regards. |
Astro Send message Joined: 16 Apr 02 Posts: 8026 Credit: 600,015 RAC: 0 |
Okay, so here's Suggestion One - why doesn't the SETI team email everyone when there is a new version available? That would mean that most people would switch over as soon as they could. After all, they have all our email addresses. Both good suggestions. I know they don't have much of a staff and I don't think sending notices via email when each new version of the CC comes out is viable as they get new ones frequently, but I think they should atleast post it on the main page and/or an email when a new "Recommended" version comes out(not usually that frequently). I don't know the science behind picking 107 seconds of data per WU, so I can't speak to that. However, the new Seti/Boinc/Beta team is testing a new Application file with doubles the sensitivity of the search and takes longer to crunch. This would slow up the network connections and may satisfy the requirements of your second Idea. hope this helps tony |
Pascal, K G Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 2343 Credit: 150,491 RAC: 0 |
I would love to be able to do the emails for seti, just to see how many are bad, my guess is about 20 to 30 % and I have a feeling that is low..... Semper Eadem So long Paul, it has been a hell of a ride. Park your ego's, fire up the computers, Science YES, Credits No. |
ABT Chuck P Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 91 Credit: 316,669 RAC: 0 |
It's true that mostly old clients such as 4.13 cause excessive DL errors. But not allways. Check this result: http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=87954664 ========================== If you look at the machines running the 4.13 CC you'll find that most are failing DL's at a rate far greater than those running 4.19 or greater. Many that I've seen attemt and fail 9 units before they get a good DL and that is done several times to fill their cache requirements. |
AndyK Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 280 Credit: 305,079 RAC: 0 |
It's true that mostly old clients such as 4.13 cause excessive DL errors. But not allways. Check this result: http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=87954664 If to take a close look to that WU you see 5 DL errors with 4.13 and only 1 with 4.45. Note: application version 4.18 has nothing to do with the core client version. It's the seti@home application which has v4.18 Andy Want to know your pending credit? The biggest bug is sitting 10 inch in front of the screen. |
Ananas Send message Joined: 14 Dec 01 Posts: 195 Credit: 2,503,252 RAC: 0 |
I think there's a better solution than forcing people to install different versions. The handling of download errors is just wrong. A download error is _not_ an error result, it isn't a "result" at all. So it should not count in "Too many error results". After each download error, the next delivery of the same work unit should be delayed but no further action should be taken. The download errors should not even be stored in the database for long, they are usually caused by technical server problems so they are totally irrelevant for the project. Make note about the error in some log file and forget it would be more appropriate. If there are way more DL errors with 4.13 than with 4.45 that might also mean that 4.45 isn't as popular as 4.13, if 400 try with 4.13 and 100 try with 4.45, it is only normal that there are more errors with 4.13 in such a phase with server problems. It would be interesting to count maybe over a month, how many results come in from which core version. Otoh. I had nothing but problems with 4.13, I wonder why they do not at least upgrade to 4.19 :-/ |
ampoliros Send message Joined: 24 Sep 99 Posts: 152 Credit: 3,542,579 RAC: 5 |
I wonder why they do not at least upgrade to 4.19 :-/ Most BOINC/SETI participants come from the Ronco philosophy of computer management. ie "Set it and forget it!" [audience claps] By the way, those things don't work, they don't have enough mass to maintain an even cooking temperature. ;) Whenever I'm cooking in the oven I always leave a couple of pizza stones on the bottom to help maintain an even temperature inside the oven. 7,049 S@H Classic Credits |
Bart Barenbrug Send message Joined: 7 Jul 04 Posts: 52 Credit: 337,401 RAC: 0 |
I agree with Ananas. here's another example of a WU with three succesful results (so it could've been validated ok), but the WU got trashed since too many download errors came first (only two out of the 6 are by pre-4.19 core clients by the way, so not sending work to pre-4.19 clients wouldn't even have helped in this case). I don't see why a result could not transition from "Ready to send" to "In progress" (to use the status page terminology) only *after* it's been succesfully downloaded by a client. If an error occurs, fine, just keep it as "ready to send" and hand it out to the next client who comes asking for more work. No need to keep track of the failed attempt in the database: the client will come again for more (just like a failed upload of a processed result will simply be retried later), so there is no strain (even less than in the current way of working) on the database. Am I missing something? |
Paul D. Buck Send message Joined: 19 Jul 00 Posts: 3898 Credit: 1,158,042 RAC: 0 |
Am I missing something? No, and I made the suggestion for a change in the policy. But, unless a project gets adamant about this as a change, it is not likely to change in the near term. |
SeaEagle Send message Joined: 14 Jun 99 Posts: 12 Credit: 3,291,985 RAC: 2 |
That's the best cooking tip i've heard in a long time, as soon as i'm done typing i'm putting mine in the oven, thanks. Gregg |
ampoliros Send message Joined: 24 Sep 99 Posts: 152 Credit: 3,542,579 RAC: 5 |
That's the best cooking tip i've heard in a long time, as soon as i'm done typing i'm putting mine in the oven, thanks. You're too kind, I just said that it helps with maintaining an even temp (no wild fluctuations when the coils turn on and off or you open the door), I never said anything about how my cooking tastes. You want to learn how to cook and not just how to say "BAM!" check out Alton Brown. 7,049 S@H Classic Credits |
Ingleside Send message Joined: 4 Feb 03 Posts: 1546 Credit: 15,832,022 RAC: 13 |
I think there's a better solution than forcing people to install different versions. Download-error can also be due to wu getting corrupted on disk, wrongfully deleted from disk, or wrongly signed on either wu or application. If you don't count any error-messages reported due to downloading, this means a potentially bad wu can be re-issued infinite many times and the whole point of counting errors is to guard against this. As for more download-errors with v4.13, it's a known bug that if for any reason a download doesn't happen, it's never re-tried at all. |
Mibe, ZX-81 16kb Send message Joined: 30 Jun 99 Posts: 42 Credit: 2,622,033 RAC: 0 |
So what can be done to get the project aware of the importance of this problem? It is an issue in a number of threads both here and in the problem forum allready. And since the solution will lessen the burden on the servers, a bunch of other network problems is taken care of in the same fix. |
krgm Send message Joined: 2 Jun 05 Posts: 30 Credit: 72,152 RAC: 0 |
Now, I was just looking at my results. 2 of them have 0 credits due to this problem. All the download errors were reported before my computer had started work on the WU's. Can SETI not send a stop work order (or something like that) to BOINC to not persue further work on that WU? |
Don Erway Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 305 Credit: 471,946 RAC: 0 |
All they need do, is treat "download" errors differently. Just keep trying more hosts, until you get enough hosts that *successfully* download it. If you get 4 straight failures, maybe it is a network outage, or maybe it is a bad WU. This would ensure that enough hosts always actually start on each WU, whereas now, the system allows hosts to grind away on WUs that it should know, apriori, will be useless. Don |
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