> > "Silwadi said his study of the Koran showed that the US would perish
> mainly
> > because of its great sins against mankind, including the Native Americans
> and
> > blacks."
>
> > Hmm. But wouldn't the tsunami sent by Allah to destroy America also kill
> many
> > blacks and Native Americans as well? More reason why I think this is just
> a
> > bunch of gaga.
>
>
> What's also quite interesting and an often totally ignored or unknown part of
> this worlds history is that over a million peripheral border european people
> were taken over hundreds of previous years to the slave markets in Africa and
> into the Arabic and Islamic world.
>
> There are the odd recognition of this in the islamic world but not really a
> true picture. There are a few graves of white female slave where they had been
> eventually taken as wives and been accorded the honour of at least being
> remembered on a tomb stone.
>
> Seems odd that God would only punish White slave traders when history has so
> many Black slave traders also.
>
> Interesting that Islam (and other religions and cultures) has a very special
> place for slaves yet denies its obvious contribution to the continuance and
> development of ownership of other humans within our shared heritage going back
> to adam n eve.
>
> If over history we have as we are told migrated from Africa then thousands of
> years of Black slave owners have past.
>
> But I guess history is written and remembered only to show us (who ever that
> is) in the light we wish to bask in.
>
> If Allah is merciful it seems that we all have to forgive each other, black or
> white, this or that...
>
> there is a strange anomoly here though where killing is concerned when done by
> god (or I guess by anyone) because if you argue against a religious arguement
> within the confines of its belief system (world view) then death of the body
> is not really killing but transforming or releasing that which is more
> valuable.. The soul.
>
> In this way killing in religious terms is and can be seen as a positive and
> good thing. understanding this little item goes a long way to seeing where
> some religious people are actually coming from which whilst I do not agree
> with it is actually within their minds an act of goodness or love and even for
> the benefit of us...
>
> In this way the arguement that Black Americans will also die is a mute point
> as I guess the arguement would go that they will be liberated and find a place
> in heaven or the like... They are being done a favour in this bizaar arguement
> of mine ;)
>
>
> cRunchy
>

I just get the idea that this Silwadi guy is not thinking in a religious sense at all. I think that he is rather thinking in a political sense. I mean, this statement by Silwadi for example seems more political to me:

"It would be fair to say that the world would be better off with a US that is not a superpower and that does not take advantage of weak nations than a world where this country does not exist at all," he added."The world will certainly lose a lot if and when this disaster occurs because of the great services that American society has rendered to the economy, industry and science."

> I just get the idea that this Silwadi guy is not thinking in a religious sense
> at all. I think that he is rather thinking in a political sense. I mean, this
> statement by Silwadi for example seems more political to me:

> "It would be fair to say that the world would be better off with a US that
> is not a superpower and that does not take advantage of weak nations than a
> world where this country does not exist at all," he added."The world will
> certainly lose a lot if and when this disaster occurs because of the great
> services that American society has rendered to the economy, industry and
> science."

I totally agree but that mix or religion and politics often happens where there are people who are or feel they are oppressed.

I see no problem with mixing religion and politics. I suspect that Eurocentric thinking has actually separated these and given a distaste for this kind of mixture as we developed a more separated state over the centuries.

The difference in Islamic world might be seen in microcosm if you look at the position of the Mulah (religious teacher leader similar to priest). A Mulah often has to support themselves within their community and have a job as well as being a Mulah. They will often run bussinesses given their higher level of education. this brings local community involvement, commerce and politics together in their world.

This is not dissimilar to priests of old in the christian world and in that europe had a fair number of priest come politicians and revolutionary leaders.

I think there is some merit to the specific passages above just as there was to what Gandi said about England or Jesus said about Rome. But human society is not perfect and today the US is powerful and powerful countries (or people) often overpower other nations whether by choice or just pure weight.

i've seen too many predictions of doom so I guess I won't hold my breath waiting to be washed away in some biblical.. ooh sorry Quranic flood :)

Personally I think there is a different message we can read out of this guys words. I think it belies a sense of powerlessness after the events of Afghanistan and Iraq where the only hope for change people can grasp hold of is that of godly intervention... It smacks of a feeling that there is nothing people can do for themselves to raise their own hopes or achieve aspiration.

Regardless of whether this cleric is simply voicing a feeling of his people or whether he is capitalising on it it suggests a broken will and mindset which if true I think might be the greatest of tragedies.

I would fear the breakdown of a health society where people have lost faith in their own capacity for advance than any flood.


cRunchy

---

> Of course though I'd watch the guy with the machette but knowing my luck it
> would be a double act and the guy with the book would sneak up behind me...

About 20 years ago I was arrested in New Brunswick for reading a book outside a donut shop. I was there a few hours, and the owner decided I must be planning a heist, or stalking a waitress or something. They called the cops on me. Meanwhile there were idiot kids in 4x4's driving over the grass, peeing on the side of the building, drinking beer in their trucks... than was normal. It was the guy with the book they were worried about.

---

> About 20 years ago I was arrested in New Brunswick for reading a book outside
> a donut shop. I was there a few hours, and the owner decided I must be
> planning a heist, or stalking a waitress or something. They called the cops on
> me. Meanwhile there were idiot kids in 4x4's driving over the grass, peeing on
> the side of the building, drinking beer in their trucks... than was normal. It
> was the guy with the book they were worried about.

See. told you it is the quiet ones. You were the abnormal one. Next time take a pee in middle of the donut shop whilst reading your book and they will give you an award for being a model citizen :)

Mind you you don't say what book you were reading... Perhaps they just didn't approve of your choice of literature...

Wasn't a book about how to rob donut shops was it :)

cRunchy

---

> "As soon as the Europeans started arriving in the new world discovered by
> Christopher Columbus in 1492, they declared a war on the so-called Red
> Indians, the legitimate owners of the land," he wrote. "Then they began
> enslaving and humiliating Africans after kidnapping them from their countries
> and bringing them to America. Millions of blacks were brought to the US and
> treated with unprecedented harshness. Those who became ill during the journey
> were thrown overboard to feed the fish."

Show me a piece of land on this planet that has not been usurped, overrun or stolen multiple times. That is why we have armies. The geopolitical borders that we now have, including those of the Islamic nations, did not come with the planet. They have been forged by conquest, and for better or for worse all humans share the same historical burden in this regard.

Silwadi is either duplicitous or historically naive. It is wonderful to think of native Americans living together in utopian peace and harmony, but that was hardly the case. They had their allegiances and enmities like the rest of us, and the Europeans exploited this when they arrived. As for the slave trade, Islam had an older and more established slave trade than did Europe. It was Christianity that was responsible for the abolition of the slave trade. The Islamic nations did not respond until the Western abolitionist movement was well underway.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm

I really get tired of the arguments about who God is ticked off with, from both sides of the religious spectrum. Not so long ago Christian biblical interpreters (I will not call them scholars) were identifying the USSR as the "Gog and Magog" of the Apocalypse, and so fueling and justifying contemporary Cold War hatred and suspicion. This latest effort from the Islamic side is no different, with the same transparent and self-serving political bias dressed in the same religious clothing.

Das ist der Werk, Herr Walndenmeir?

---

> Wasn't a book about how to rob donut shops was it :)

"The Magus", by John Fowles. This fellow finds himself on a Greek island where he is gradually led to believe that he is living in an alternative existence where the characters of Greek mythology are real. Things are not as they seem, and the character ends up mentally violated and bereft. The book leaves you feeling completely twisted and depressed, which I suppose mean that it is good, but very, very disturbing.

---

Tsunami?
Bah!

The supervolcano under Yellowstone should erupt any time now, and will leave a crater half the size of the park.

> "The Magus", by John Fowles. This fellow finds himself on a Greek island where
> he is gradually led to believe that he is living in an alternative existence
> where the characters of Greek mythology are real. Things are not as they seem,
> and the character ends up mentally violated and bereft. The book leaves you
> feeling completely twisted and depressed, which I suppose mean that it is
> good, but very, very disturbing.

I forced myself to read to the end of the book. The main protagonist is extremely unlikeable, and an acquantaince had drawn a parallel between him and my then-not-very-long-ex-partner. I thought he deserved everything that happened to him. And too much emphasis on Priapus, IMO.

Did you enjoy the book?

> > Of course though I'd watch the guy with the machette but knowing my luck
> it
> > would be a double act and the guy with the book would sneak up behind
> me...
>
> About 20 years ago I was arrested in New Brunswick for reading a book outside
> a donut shop. I was there a few hours, and the owner decided I must be
> planning a heist, or stalking a waitress or something. They called the cops on
> me. Meanwhile there were idiot kids in 4x4's driving over the grass, peeing on
> the side of the building, drinking beer in their trucks... than was normal. It
> was the guy with the book they were worried about.
>
reminds me of this....

One time me and a few (4) guys from work go out at lunch time for a pizza.
Has we drove back to work ( in a large old Mercedes car), one of the guys
wanted to stop at the pharmacy, so we did.The car stopped at the front
of the building, my buddy went in for 15 minutes or so and came out again.
We drove away slowly and half a mile away a police car stopped us for
id's , asked to search the car, ask where we were going, where we came from,
and what were we doing at the pharmacy ( silly question).

> Tsunami?
> Bah!
>
> The supervolcano under Yellowstone should erupt any time now, and will leave a
> crater half the size of the park.
>

Not to worry Alex cause you won't be around to see the crater.. It's eruption is supposed to be a worl wide catastropic event..

Can you say DINOSAUR!!!

---

I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

Quote:
> Based on the interpretation of geological and volcanological observations on
> the island of La Palma, a subsequent numerical tsunami modeling study was
> undertaken by Ward &. Day (2001), postulating that a massive landslide,
> with a volume of up 500 cubic km, could be triggered by the next major
> eruption of Cumbre Vieja. The study concludes that the collapse of Cumbre
> Vieja's western flank would generate a destructive mega tsunami which would
> strike both sides of the North and South Atlantic. Waves of up to 50 m. in
> height were estimated for Florida and the Caribbean islands, and more than 40
> m. for the northern coast of Brazil.
>
> So, it could happen, but it's unlikely to be happen in the very next years.
>
>

Yes it will happen, but even a 50 foot wave would not reach more then 25 miles inland. Granted that wave will hit the US just 8 hours after half of LaPuma slides into the Ocean.

It would will manage to wipe out most if not all of the East clost ecomonic centers.. In eight hours millions of lives will be lost but the Ecomonic and political power of the US will be transferred inland (power of the internet and 747's)

---

I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

Not to pick nits (or noses), read it again, Wolf. The predicted wave is 50 meters, not 50 feet. And I believe the energy involved is part of an exponential factor, not a simple mathematical one (that is to say, since the wave would be more than 3 times higher, the energy would be more than 9 times more). How far inland would THAT wave reach?

Back to topic, if the use of slavery is the basis for the wrath of the gods, then ALL cultures must die, as ALL cultures have used slavery at one time or another. That includes Africans and Native Americans. Historically, this is how ALL pre- or neo-industrial cultures advanced. If they didn't advance, they died out.

In addition to the previously stated dates of apocalypse, the world was supposed to end on May 13, 2004. But it didn't. This was yet another example of someone reading chicken bones or adding all the 'e's and 'o's in the bible and determining when the world was supposed to end. The really sad thing is that after all this crying wolf, if someone actually figures out the real deal, no one will believe them because we've heard this song too many times before.

---

A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part!

> I forced myself to read to the end of the book. The main protagonist is
> extremely unlikeable, and an acquantaince had drawn a parallel between him and
> my then-not-very-long-ex-partner. I thought he deserved everything that
> happened to him. And too much emphasis on Priapus, IMO.
>
> Did you enjoy the book?

Funny, the protagonist was also like my own not-very-long-ex-partner. I found the book riveting, but in a sick way. "Enjoy" is not quite the word. More like "captivated".

I had to post to test out my new avatar. My most powerful weapon.

---

> > "As soon as the Europeans started arriving in the new world discovered
> by
> > Christopher Columbus in 1492, they declared a war on the so-called Red
> > Indians, the legitimate owners of the land," he wrote. "Then they began
> > enslaving and humiliating Africans after kidnapping them from their
> countries
> > and bringing them to America. Millions of blacks were brought to the US
> and
> > treated with unprecedented harshness. Those who became ill during the
> journey
> > were thrown overboard to feed the fish."
>
> Show me a piece of land on this planet that has not been usurped, overrun or
> stolen multiple times. That is why we have armies. The geopolitical borders
> that we now have, including those of the Islamic nations, did not come with
> the planet. They have been forged by conquest, and for better or for worse all
> humans share the same historical burden in this regard.
>
> Silwadi is either duplicitous or historically naive. It is wonderful to think
> of native Americans living together in utopian peace and harmony, but that was
> hardly the case. They had their allegiances and enmities like the rest of us,
> and the Europeans exploited this when they arrived. As for the slave trade,
> Islam had an older and more established slave trade than did Europe. It was
> Christianity that was responsible for the abolition of the slave trade. The
> Islamic nations did not respond until the Western abolitionist movement was
> well underway.
>
> http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm
>
> I really get tired of the arguments about who God is ticked off with, from
> both sides of the religious spectrum. Not so long ago Christian biblical
> interpreters (I will not call them scholars) were identifying the USSR as the
> "Gog and Magog" of the Apocalypse, and so fueling and justifying contemporary
> Cold War hatred and suspicion. This latest effort from the Islamic side is no
> different, with the same transparent and self-serving political bias dressed
> in the same religious clothing.
>
>
You hit history right on the mark.

P.S. You have one of the funniest profiles I've ever read.

---

Account frozen...

> Yes it will happen, but even a 50 foot wave would not reach more then 25 miles
> inland. Granted that wave will hit the US just 8 hours after half of LaPuma
> slides into the Ocean.

Um...they mentioned a 50 METER wave...which would be around a 160 Foot wave coming into the Eastern seaboard, not a 50 foot wave. I've seena 50 foot wave and I've ridden a 45 foot wave,(one of the benefits of having family on Maui is that you get to be stupid and ride Jaws...) That's nothing to laugh at when you see the crest of the wave towering over a 4 story building. Granted, in this day and age, a 150 foot wave wouldn't normally pose a threat to people on higher elevations or further inland but remember that the wave generated by a landslide is much faster than a wave generated by an earthquake. As it approaches shoreline, the shallowness of the coast causes the wave to rise higher. You're faced with a taller wave than what you started with moving at a much faster speed and when it hits the beach, the energy delivered will carry it miles inland. You say millions will die, tens of millions will die in the first hour or so. New York, DC, Miami, Orlando, Boston, anything with a harbor and facing the Atlantic will be wiped off the planet.

> It would will manage to wipe out most if not all of the East clost ecomonic
> centers.. In eight hours millions of lives will be lost but the Ecomonic and
> political power of the US will be transferred inland (power of the internet
> and 747's)

Another problem with this is that the US, for all of our so-called mobility, is extremely centralized in the East Coast Seaboard. There is no contingency to set up the capital further inland, let alone any of the major financial institutions. Where are most of our banks headquartered? NYC. Where do most of the federal reserve hold it's deposits? Not spread out completely through the country but in New York. US Gold deposits are in the New York-Kentucky corridor. IF the US sustains a hit like this one, our country would crumble.

Also, curiously, if such an event happens, it's going to kill millions of Muslims as well. IT won't just stop at the US, it'll hit Canada, Iceland, Greenland, not to mention everything south of Miami and even the northern coasts of South America and Central America.

---

> Not to pick nits (or noses), read it again, Wolf. The predicted wave is 50
> meters, not 50 feet. And I believe the energy involved is part of an
> exponential factor, not a simple mathematical one (that is to say, since the
> wave would be more than 3 times higher, the energy would be more than 9 times
> more). How far inland would THAT wave reach?
>
50 feet, 50 Meters it is only predicted to go 25 miles inland.

As for transfers of economic and political centers inland, there are congencies for these transfers in place. They have been in place since the start of the cold war..

---

I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

Did anyone watch tne Nova program about the Tsunami? Fascinating stuff. For one it showed how a tsunami wave has inherently different characteristics than a normal ocean wave that cause the wall of water to build up instead of break when it gets to shallow water, especially on gently sloping seabottoms. Thats what sent what was a twenty foot surge at the coastline three miles or more inland.

Also one of the points was that every coast in the world eventually felt the surge. It traveled 500mph (almost as fast as an airliner) and was strong enough to beach large fishing boats in Africa. Fortunately US embassies were told and warned the respective governments, so only one person died there.

It also said the subduction zone here of the Northwest coast of the US is almost exactly the same formula as the one that caused the tsunami, quakes hard once every 500 years on average, and last time was 300 years ago.

As for the religious aspect, well, God is used as an extension of parents or older brothers: "You're being mean to me! When you die God is gonna GIT you!" This is especially true in the sand religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), which shared a death fetish and had an extra tough job explaining why God made life so crappy for the lower classes in those regions.

[EDIT]Personally I think there is a different message we can read out of this guys words. I think it belies a sense of powerlessness after the events of Afghanistan and Iraq where the only hope for change people can grasp hold of is that of godly intervention... It smacks of a feeling that there is nothing people can do for themselves to raise their own hopes or achieve aspiration.

GREAT point![/EDIT]

> Did anyone watch tne Nova program about the Tsunami? Fascinating stuff.

Yeah, that was a very interesting show. So was the one that immediately followed it on Krakatoa and the effects of that event.

---

To truly explore, one must keep an open mind...

Wot u have 2 remember about the whole La Palma thing is that it is GEOLOGISTS who say "it WILL happen, it's just a case of when" and "it'll happen in the nar future" cos geologists work on a different time-scale to the rest of the world. Where "near future" means the next few weeks to us, or possibly a few months away if u r talking abt a big construction project. When geologists say "in the near future" they mean anytime in the next half-million years. Remember. In geological terms, the Ice Age ended yesterday. In calender terms, it was 10,000 years ago. What i'm saying is don't hold your breath over La Palma or Yellowstone. It's like the Indian Ocean nations now rallying round to install a tsunami detection system, which is a bit pointless cos 2 b fair, an event like the Indian Ocean Tsunami won't happen again for a few hundred years now. The huge irony is that there was an Indonesian researcher kicked up a fuss abt the risk of Tsunamis back in the 1990s and wanted a coalition formed to set up a system. The Indonesian Govt. realsied they mite have to start spending money if his voice was heard, so they fired him - cut his funding. He's been rehired now to install a detection system!

---