> > Even more confusing, many people fall in different categories
> > depending on the situation, that is one might be in category "1" for
> murder,
> > category "2" for shoplifting, and category "3" for traffic offenses.
> >
> If I'm reading this right you mean felonies, misdemeanors, and infractions?

Well, maybe so, but what I meant was that people can act like members of different categories based on the act (its seriousness). So, I might never contemplate murder even if there was no law against it, but I might speed even knowing there is a law that prohibits it; so in one case I'm in the first category, and in the other case, the third category.

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OK. This is my rambly bit on the nature of religion, community and science and something to do with our concept of 'faith' being coloured by its long relationship with religion... Or something like that :)
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I sometimes feel religion has a mixed message. Whilst it on one hand promotes community it does define people as us and them. I suspect that religion (not spirituality) grew up with the 'nation state' to become an embodiment of belonging to a sure group.

Even devil worship (whatever that old victoriana hammer house notion means) has a sense of community and doing 'right' by it. Not even 'thuggery' could exist if there was not a notion of community.

I believe that (unlike the Christian notion) people are born not as empty vessels or in the negative or sin but are born with the wiring that leads them "towards" community. It is suprising how many community members actually embrace the outsider (refugee for example) where there is no seen or promoted threat. In many ways we enjoy difference when we feel safe and secure.

Language (not just spoken) for me, not the soul, is the process and tool of conscious thinking that makes us human and like language I believe we have the need or hunger as well as the basic structure into which to fit learning that includes further sociability.

For me religion, is an inevitable part of advanced development that is part of the psychic ('mind' not future seeing) switch into the mentality needed for nation states.

Religion models for us (if we ignore the culturally specific trapings) something of our own development not only on a personal level but also on a social level. Virtually all religions (and hinduism and budhism are easiest to see) have some description of a process towards an end. Not too unlike psychoanalytical theories.

There are 'epochs' and 'paradigms' in which, as we do in real life, go from one state, through a period of change and turmoil, onto another yet unseen state of realisation.

Just as we as children learn and learn until we can no longer support our old ways of thinking or the knowledge set.. It is then turmoil and for 'some' painful (remember those teen years).. Later as we arrive at our new adult state we look and wonder how we could have thought or have been the very creatures we were once.

Often though 'religion' is allegorical and like any good story must end. Even reincarnation theories end. Mostly they end in some 'ecstatic' transformation probably very akin to taking drugs, a moment of oneness or transcending all boundaries.

For me 'religion' was the once perfect tool to describe a world both internal and external. Today I suspect as we have (or feel we have) new assurances and better security (personal and social) within our technologically supported world it only makes sense that people wish less and less for the old way.. Just as we find it hard to envision what it was to think as we did when younger we find it hard to understand the pre paradigm allegory of 'religion'.

I do not think however that 'science' is a religion. Religion is not the only aspect of life to require "faith" and I think it is a long standing mindset that "religion" and "faith" are linked naturally... Just like I do not think that to put a wheel on a bike does not make it a car..

Community requires faith. Being conned by a con man or woman is a perfect example of faith in other humans.

If we say that religion = faith and therefore science = faith we might as well say 'religion' = 'science'.. (and not "science = "religion".. Why is it that we presume science to be a modern invention?.. It may be older that religion!!)

To live requires faith. To pick my nose requires the faith that I will as I have done before not poke my eye instead.

For me people mix up faith with the idea of 'trust'.. Faith is often described almost as part of that allegory. It is the jump into the dark. that paradigm after the epoch. A surrender to whatever may come. It is precisly what is required to go from non believer to believer. From worldly (animal or human) to ecstatic (conscious being or spirit).

That is why so many religions (like christianity) require 'faith' to be saved or enjoined to a higher place.

"Trust" however has the property of assurance through knowledge though it can also be given in ignorance.

The concept of 'faith' has for millenia been so closely linked with religion it is almost contaminated in the way we percieve it. (Like we call a 'vacuum cleaner' a "Hoover".. (in the UK)..)

I do not believe that science requires any faith. We simply set a goal based upon what we currently know and head off into the blue yonder ready to find out if what we thought we knew was correct or whether it will change. Thats the basis of a hypothesis. A starting point we wish to get away from because we desire something more.

Unlike religion (although I know history has not always been to kind to scientists) we don't need to pervert what we discover on the way to fit an ancient script. We can simply change our perspective and recalculate our knowledge.

The only faith that requires is basically of ourselves. To trust that we have the capacity to strive, take chances, change, reach out, motivate... These and faith, seem to me, better attributed to the human quality rather than to science which after all is just a basic set of tools and processes and not the knowledge in itself.


Pete

Get Out Clause: I realise there are 'some' who DO treat science as a religion and vice versa...

Atheist files new suit over pledge in public school
SAN FRANCISCO – An atheist who sued because he didn't want his young daughter exposed to the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance has filed another lawsuit, this time with other parents. Michael Newdow won his case more than two years ago before a federal appeals court, which said it was an unconstitutional blending of church and state for public school students to pledge to God. In June, however, the U.S. Supreme Court dismissed the case, saying Newdow couldn't lawfully sue because he didn't have custody of his elementary school-aged daughter and because the girl's mother objected to the lawsuit. In the latest challenge, filed Monday in Sacramento federal court, eight co-plaintiffs have joined the suit, and all are custodial parents or the children themselves, Newdow said. The plaintiffs' names have been withheld from the lawsuit...

Researchers hope CT scan reveals cause of King Tut's death
LUXOR, Egypt – A team of researchers briefly removed the mummy of King Tutankhamun from its tomb yesterday and laid bare the bones for a CT scan that could solve an enduring mystery: Was it murder or natural causes that killed Egypt's boy Pharaoh 3,000 years ago?

> .....A team of researchers briefly removed the mummy of King
> Tutankhamun from its tomb yesterday and laid bare the bones for a CT scan that
> could solve an enduring mystery: Was it murder or natural causes that killed
> Egypt's boy Pharaoh 3,000 years ago?

Wasn't he the son of the one god pharaoh who's beliefs found themselves co-opted into the early burgonings of the Judaic beliefs (and the Islam)?


Pete

Good post cRunchy. I want to comment but I need more time (and I've been busy at work).

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Atheist's bid to remove prayer from Bush's inauguration denied
WASHINGTON – An atheist who tried to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance lost a bid yesterday to bar the saying of a Christian prayer at President Bush's inauguration. U.S. District Judge John Bates said Michael Newdow's claim should be denied because he had filed and lost a similar lawsuit in a federal appeals court in California last year. Bates also said Newdow had no legal standing to pursue his claim. Even if Newdow could show he had suffered injury because he was offended in hearing the prayer, Bates said the court didn't not have authority to stop the president from inviting clergy to give a religious prayer at the ceremony...

ABOUT DOUBT
Many today see it as a sign of weakness, but key figures in history accepted skepticism as vital.

DOUBTFUL WORDS


"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear."
– Thomas Jefferson

I doubt everything; even my doubt."
– Gustave Flaubert

"Proof! Proof! That is what I have always been after. I do not know the soul, I know the mind."
– Thomas Edison

"It is the dull man who is always sure, and the sure man who is always dull. ... A great literature is thus chiefly the product of doubting and inquiring minds."
– H.L. Mencken

Que sais-je? (What do I know?)
– Montaigne's personal motto

"Lies are believed amongst every race; and was any race ever the sole possessor of Truth?"
– Abdallah al-Ma'arri

"Among all the prescriptions and ordinances of the Mosaic law, there is not a single one which says: You shall believe or not believe. They all say: You shall do or not do."
– Moses Mendelsohn

"What gets me is all the mean things people say about Secular Humanism, without even taking the time to read some of our basic scriptures, such as the Bill of Rights."
– Barbara Ehrenreich

"My worthiness is all my doubt."
– Emily Dickinson

Talk about raising the dead.

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Without skepticism there is no fortification of belief against uncertainty.

— Me (Pure impromptu P.O.O.M.A)

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Losses don't deter atheist Newdow
Separating church and state remains his aim
Atheist Michael Newdow – the man behind the case to take "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance – isn't offended if you describe his effort to further separate church from state as a "crusade." After the U.S. Supreme Court rebuffed his effort to remove God from the pledge last year, he didn't give up. In recent weeks, Newdow has filed lawsuits on opposite coasts – one to try to stop presidential inauguration prayers and the other to attempt again to get God removed from the pledge. While atheists celebrate him as one of their most outspoken advocates, some who oppose him say his efforts could eventually create more church-state problems than ever before...

Missionaries' odyssey the stuff of reality TV
In the world of bug-eating, bungee-jumping reality television, here's a twist: Christian missionaries living a travelogue life while viewers watch their aches, pains and trials trying to spread the Gospel. It makes for a surprisingly slick program, a cross between vintage Lowell Thomas and Paul of Tarsus with cheap hotels, dust storms, crowded peasant huts and an eye-level peek at a world where most tourists wouldn't dare dirty their loafers. "Travel the Road" is now in its third season, reaching 250,000 to 300,000 U.S. households per show on cable's Trinity Broadcasting Network, which bills itself as the world's largest Christian network, and uncounted others in about 100 other countries, executive producer Michael Scott said...

I can see the next blockbuster:
'The Reverend Indiana Jones and The Valley of Heathens'

[b]Devil's Island?

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Scalia: Faithful live for Christ
Supreme Court justice urges Christians to live fearlessly
U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said Saturday that people of faith should not fear being viewed by "educated circles" as "fools for Christ." The justice -- in Baton Rouge to address the Knights of Columbus Council 969 centennial celebration without charging a fee -- told a largely Roman Catholic crowd of 350 at the Holiday Inn Select that there's nothing wrong with "traditional Christianity"...


U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia accepts a certificate Saturday from Mayor-President Kip Holden declaring Scalia Honorable Mayor-President of East Baton Rouge Parish. Scalia was the keynote speaker for the 100-year anniversary of the Knights of Columbus Baton Rouge Council 969.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.


'If you don't take a job as a prostitute, we can stop your benefits'.


Did they find a new way to cut the unemployment lines?

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Red Bull Air Racing

Gas price by zip at Seti

The only connection between prostitution and religion
Is that occasionally prostitutes are hired to hear confession
Have you discovered another kink?
Love to hear about it
And so would some of my girlfriends
God helps those who help themselves...cc

I live not too far from federally subsidized housing full of welfare queens. They're all on food stamps and have multipule children by different fathers. Most of them are out there selling themselves anyway while their illegal live-in boyfriends are dealing drugs. At least the Germans are on the right track, they get some of their welfare money back through income taxes. Flame away.

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