show me a conservative estimate of future debt please

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

show me a conservative estimate of future debt please

Why should I do the conservative's job for them? Just because I criticize a liberal chart doesn't mean I need to provide proof for what most people view as the polar opposite. I really wish people would stop seeing things in black and white (liberal or conservative, republican or democrat).

My problem begins with conservatives claiming the Bush tax cuts are actually helping. I guess technically they didn't say who the cuts were helping and by helping only the wealthy they indeed did help someone which makes them a little disingenuous.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

My problem begins with conservatives claiming the Bush tax cuts are actually helping. I guess technically they didn't say who the cuts were helping and by helping only the wealthy they indeed did help someone which makes them a little disingenuous.

And those tax cuts do help the deficit look bigger than it would normally because of the economy being in the tank due to several bubbles that popped.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

My theory is that the economic problems of the world all have to do with Capital. Mainly, capital that has been stolen or at least vacuumed up. Where has it gone ?

It has gone To:

The oil producing states in the Middle East.
Speculators in Gas and Oil.
The Chinese who manufacture everything with cheap labor.
The providers of the pieces of Healthcare (doctors, poorly run hospitals, Insurers, thieving suppliers of equipment.)
The Bailout money to undeserving, thieving financial institutions.
The Aid and War money which we waste that winds up in the Swiss accounts of our corrupt "allies"
Socialist attempts to provide the comforts of life to non-productive entities.

Mix this in with the fact that under Socialism you don't have to do your share --someone else will do the heavy lifting.

Well, with fewer people willing or able to carry this burden and with little to no capital to grease the wheels of our economy we have slid to our current sorry state. Who is there to attack these problems ?? Let me know your solutions.

You missed the people who are collecting wealth today. Partners in law firms.

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So.

let's have some comments on the solutions. Will they have to be draconian ? Will they involve too much government regulation ? Is Government capable of regulation?

Lets take a whack at some cures. Some of these would be considered off the wall. Comments please.

Single 6-year term for all federal elective office.
Elections by popular vote count--simple plurality
Triple the margin requirements for futures trading in Gasoline, crude oil, food grains
Ban Ethanol for use as a motor fuel additive
Legalize Marijuana and cocaine
Execute those caught with distribution/production of Meth, heroin, etc (Lee Kwan Yew style in Singapore)
Drill for domestic oil via permitting.
Jail those fixing prices or holding Gas, oil, gasoline off the market.
Investigate and prosecute health care fraud.
Cap awards for damage claims to individuals to $100,000
Start 200 nuclear plants in abandoned coal mines or in excavated mountain fortresses.
Close 75% of our overseas bases.
Track students from the 5th grade on into College, trade, etc courses of studies.
Allow public schools to quickly remove miscreants from classrooms. (where do we send them ?)
Re-vector social security for those 50 and under into a self directed IRA.
Repeal OBAMA -care.
Go to a graduated flat tax with deduction for Home mortgage and Children/spouse (?) only
Close off-shore loopholes for business but lower corporate tax rate (is this possible)
Tax organized religion.
Return Capital gains tax to 15 %

I don't necessarily advocate any of these --I just put them out there to stir the pot.

Would this give us a police state or utopia ? which ones ?

So.

let's have some comments on the solutions. Will they have to be draconian ? Will they involve too much government regulation ? Is Government capable of regulation?

Lets take a whack at some cures. Some of these would be considered off the wall. Comments please.

Single 6-year term for all federal elective office.
Elections by popular vote count--simple plurality
Triple the margin requirements for futures trading in Gasoline, crude oil, food grains
Legalize Marijuana
Life in prison those caught with distribution/production of Meth, heroin, etc
Drill for domestic oil via permitting.
Jail those fixing prices or holding Gas, oil, gasoline off the market.
Investigate and prosecute health care fraud.
Cap awards for damage claims to individuals to $100,000
Start 200 nuclear plants in abandoned coal mines or in excavated mountain fortresses.
Close 75% of our overseas bases.
Track students from the 5th grade on into College, trade, etc courses of studies.
Re-vector social security for those 50 and under into a self directed IRA.
Repeal OBAMA -care.
Go to flat tax
Close off-shore loopholes for business but lower corporate tax rate (this IS possible)

So many of these are good ideas, it's hard to choose.
I have edited your list in the quote above.....
Add true campaign finance reform.

And what's this -care you are talking about?
Just repeal OBAMA.

You're not running, are you? LOL.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Single 6-year term for all federal elective office.

Requires a constitutional amendment, not likely to happen.

Elections by popular vote count--simple plurality

Requires a constitutional amendment to get rid of the Electoral College, not likely to happen.

Triple the margin requirements for futures trading in Gasoline, crude oil, food grains

Requires changes in rules by I think the Fed and/or Congress.

Ban Ethanol for use as a motor fuel additive

Requires changes in laws by Congress.

Legalize Marijuana and cocaine

Requires changes in laws by Congress.

Execute those caught with distribution/production of Meth, heroin, etc (Lee Kwan Yew style in Singapore)

Not cost effective lawyers win, Life in prison with no time off or parole or furlough is better, in short a person dies in prison.

Drill for domestic oil via permitting.

Requires changes in laws by Congress and political will to do so.

Jail those fixing prices or holding Gas, oil, gasoline off the market.

That requires evidence for the Justice Department and the FBI to prosecute

Investigate and prosecute health care fraud.

Done already, Just needs enough staff and funding, Congressional problem, Also unless there is proof of a misdeed, Constitutional Right to Privacy is there and the presumption of being innocent until proven guilty...

Cap awards for damage claims to individuals to $100,000

In California We have a limit of $250,000 and so no malpractice suits against Doctors or Hospitals as Lawyers don't come cheap and won't work for peanuts.

Start 200 nuclear plants in abandoned coal mines or in excavated mountain fortresses.

As long as their on high ground in case of flooding and meet all seismic requirements, I'm ok with most of it, But a power plant ideally should be near to those it serves and not remote and only serving the birds.

Close 75% of our overseas bases.

Sounds good, Most in Europe aren't needed.

Track students from the 5th grade on into College, trade, etc courses of studies.

Sounds like school records, already done possibly.

Re-vector social security for those 50 and under into a self directed IRA.

Privatization? Again? Not liked or popular, political suicide, people like the current system too well. 3rd Rail in US is highly charged... next.

Repeal OBAMA -care.

Not going to happen, parts have already been judged to be constitutional just like Social Security was in 1937.

Go to flat tax with deduction for Home mortgage and Children/spouse (?) only

A flat tax would shove more of the burden on to the lower incomes and give the richest taxpayers even less to pay, Yet some millionaires and billionaires have said they want to be taxed more. No more nutty Ayn Rands, Government is not a bad thing here in the US, Some just don't like paying for this or for that or they want their particular type of Religious views made into law...

Close off-shore loopholes for business but lower corporate tax rate (is this possible)

Requires changes in laws by Congress and political will to do so, may not be practical to lower the Corporate Tax rate.

I don't necessarily advocate any of these --I just put them out there to stir the pot.

IDIC(Infinite Diversity Infinite Combinations) maybe?

Would this give us a police state or utopia ? which ones ?

Police State? Unlikely to happen, unless some let Corporate power run unchecked. Utopia? For the Rich and for some in Industry the 19th Century would be preferable, Hence efforts to get rid of obstacles to outright Corporate power, Like the EPA, FBI, IRS, FDA, FCC, etc, etc, etc...

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

A chart off flicker is supposed to mean something?

I've seen this image before elsewhere and not on flickr, So It's authentic.

The chart is nothing more than an "analysis" or prediction based upon a very Liberal site: http://cbpp.org. It would be nice to see if any of their analysis has any fact to it through peer review.

It really seems like the Dems are playing the best scare tactics they can this time around. I thought it was only the GOP that played such cards.

So I note with the mixing of revenue and spending on the same chart, it is disingenuous.

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Let's take just one issue alone here......
Social Security.

If every dollar I paid into that now corrupt system had been set aside for me under my name since I was 16yo mowing lawns......
I'd be sitting in more damned clover than a new born lamb.

Where the hell were the people when the government released the Social Security trust into the general fund so they could plunder it for their own nefarious purposes????

And, although politically, insanely difficult, and probably much too late, why can this not be changed back now?

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I don't see Social Security as corrupt, Wanting to do the right thing? Yes, Hard working people trying to do their job as efficiently as possible? Yes.
It's Republicans in Congress who want to keep from honoring the contract, But then their the ones who said Social Security is unconstitutional, which is not true, the US Supreme Court found in 1937 that Social Security is Constitutional. Repubs just don't want to pay back what they owe.

AARP wrote:

Social Security: Fears vs. Facts
What Social Security critics keep getting wrong

by: Liz Weston | from: AARP The Magazine | July/August 2011 issue


Myth #2: The Social Security trust fund assets are worthless.

Any surplus payroll taxes not used for current benefits are used to purchase special-issue, interest-paying Treasury bonds. In other words, the surplus in the Social Security trust fund has been loaned to the federal government for its general use — the reserve of $2.6 trillion is not a heap of cash sitting in a vault. These bonds are backed by the full faith and credit of the federal government, just as they are for other Treasury bondholders. However, Treasury will soon need to pay back these bonds. This will put pressure on the federal budget, according to Social Security's board of trustees. Even without any changes, Social Security can continue paying full benefits through 2037. After that, the revenue from payroll taxes will still cover about 75 percent of promised benefits.

Myth #3: I could invest better on my own.

Maybe you could, and maybe you couldn't. But the point of Social Security isn't to maximize the return on the payroll taxes you've contributed. Social Security is designed to be the one guaranteed part of your retirement income that can't be outlived or lost in the stock market. It's a secure base of income throughout your working life and retirement. And for many, it's a lifeline. Social Security provides the majority of income for at least half of Americans over age 65; it is 90 percent or more of income for 43 percent of singles and 22 percent of married couples. You can, and should, invest in a retirement fund like a 401(k) or an individual retirement account. Maybe you'll enjoy strong returns and avoid the market turmoil we have seen during the past decade. If not, you'll still have Social Security to fall back on.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Point is...
The government STOLE funds from this supposedly untouchable trust.
Which could have been earning interest in the interim.

I DO happen to see the program as having been corrupted.

EDIT...
And Victor, I don't know how you can think otherwise.
You have been vocal enough about cutbacks in the payments.
You are living on the system.
I am still paying into it.
(No diss intended, Vic).

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Point is...
The government STOLE funds from this supposedly untouchable trust.
Which could have been earning interest in the interim.

I DO happen to see the program as having been corrupted.

EDIT...
And Victor, I don't know how you can think otherwise.
You have been vocal enough about cutbacks in the payments.
You are living on the system.
I am still paying into it.
(No diss intended, Vic).

The problem is Congress gives the orders, Social Security has to obey, Republicans in Congress want to make cuts to benefits, If It were just on people with high end incomes I'd not worry so much, Republicans talk about across the board cuts and caps, denying colas which keep or hopefully keep one from sinking into poverty too much, I'd love to get an extra $22 a month, I'm below poverty now and I barely make it, If those cuts were put into place how would I fix My car? Or buy new clothes or shoes? Or whatever else is needed? Borrow? Don't make Me laugh, If My income were cut I couldn't even get a mortgage for a cheaper place to live. Save to buy a replacement car? That would be impossible and so would shopping for food, As any frozen or refrigerated food would spoil before I got home as I can't walk far(12.5 miles to Barstow one way), Buses only allow 4 bags per person per trip and take their time as they drive all over the area(dial a ride), So a car is required and not optional. I don't get food Stamps in CA as CA has a policy called Cash Out which says every SSI recipient gets $10 in lieu of Food Stamps and CA lets SSA manage SSI accounts in CA so as to not have to spend state Money on SSI, So the USDA cut off Food Stamps to CA for SSI recipients as It could not tell who was a legally eligible household and who was an ineligible mixed income household, So Food Stamps are embargoed by the USDA and SSA as a result. And how is legal borrowing by Congress stealing? SSA didn't steal any money, the money was/is invested in T-Bills(Treasury Bonds). Congress pays back the money It borrowed, it's just that Republicans in Congress don't want to do this repayment as much as Congress has done before as Republicans are lazy and want to balance the budget in an easy way, closing loopholes and raising taxes on the elite is way too hard for them as their in a no win situation and to go against that takes real guts, but being spineless they won't, As they've signed a pledge to obey what Fuhrer Grover Norquist says, Not their sworn oath and duty to all the people of the USA and to the US Constitution and it's Amendments(conflict of interest and the real corruption). That implies Congress has no ability or authority to make laws concerning Social Security, When It's Congress that makes the laws as delegated by the US Constitution and not the other way around. Yes I live in the system, I've been judged to be incapable of working by SSA, which was confirmed to Me by a firm that trains people in how to drive semi-trucks, they said that they didn't feel that I could drive a truck, Even a powder train type of semi-truck which I'd only need to drive, not load or unload as My Brother said He never had to load or unload those type of trucks and He had a bruised brain(which gave Him short term memory problems, so He took copious notes and later after retirement anti-seizure meds), just from an auto roll over type crash back in the early 60's before He joined the US Navy(just over 20 years).

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Victor....
Answer me this.
Am I incorrect in my assertion that as originally set up, the funds in the Social Security trust were to be sacrosanct. Untouchable by any government entity for any purpose other than that for which it was originally prescribed?

And has that trust both in literal terms of the money fund and in terms of the public trust, not been violated?

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Must be that most politicians think us 'small folk' are not capable of anything more than Tennessee Math.

But they are practicing Abbott and Costello math....

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Victor....
Answer me this.
Am I incorrect in my assertion that as originally set up, the funds in the Social Security trust were to be sacrosanct. Untouchable by any government entity for any purpose other than that for which it was originally prescribed?

And has that trust both in literal terms of the money fund and in terms of the public trust, not been violated?

Ok like I said Congress can and did make legislation to allow money to be borrowed from the Trust Fund, Said legislation was signed into law, It's like Your saying that nobody was allowed to alter the rules, which is ridiculous. Social Security was made by an Act of Congress.

Nothing is sacrosanct except ones oath of office, Which I believe is being violated by Repubs in Congress. Congress can make laws, that's their job.

So No, Yer not correct.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Victor....
Answer me this.
Am I incorrect in my assertion that as originally set up, the funds in the Social Security trust were to be sacrosanct. Untouchable by any government entity for any purpose other than that for which it was originally prescribed?

And has that trust both in literal terms of the money fund and in terms of the public trust, not been violated?

Ok like I said Congress can and did make legislation to allow money to be borrowed from the Trust Fund, Said legislation was signed into law, It's like Your saying that nobody was allowed to alter the rules, which is ridiculous. Social Security was made by an Act of Congress.

Nothing is sacrosanct except ones oath of office, Which I believe is being violated by Repubs in Congress. Congress can make laws, that's their job.

So No, Yer not correct.

OK, buddy......yeah...it was borrowed, but never paid back.
You sound like a good ol' friend.
Ya got two tens for a five?

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I certainly hope Mr. Bobier you get the extra $22 per month from SS. It would get you closer to the over $400 dollar case you want. And while waiting, the extra $22 would help in keeping you stocked up with sweet and low, yellow mustard and help you buy the lamp you need for your DLP TV.

The Economic Recovery can't get here fast enough.

I hope The Politicians get it in gear and do their job, and soon.

iWorm 'em.

I certainly hope Mr. Bobier you get the extra $22 per month from SS. It would get you closer to the over $400 dollar case you want. And while waiting, the extra $22 would help in keeping you stocked up with sweet and low, yellow mustard and help you buy the lamp you need for your DLP TV.

The Economic Recovery can't get here fast enough.

I hope The Politicians get it in gear and do their job, and soon.

iWorm 'em.

I hope so too, Or the polis might get wormed. ;)

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's