By me (Qui-Gon):

Yes, I do believe in God.

* * *

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.

By CR:

Tom, that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard. <snip>...

Thanks.

By Es99:

Well, not really.

* * *

The most liberating thing you can do in life is realise that there is no god and that you are entirely responsible for your own life and choices. :)

@Es99

Given our strained relationship it doesn't surprise me a bit that you chose my short answer to such a deep question as the basis for your refutation of the existence of God. Nonetheless, I respect your position as you have every right to believe what you do, even though looking at some of the same evidence, you and I come to quite different conclusions. I would like to point out, as I have in subsequent posts, that your point by point rebuttal of my post is quite heavy on the physical aspects of the Universe and somewhat lacking in the spiritual side of the relation between God and us.

On a physical note, one thing I would like to compare is our view of the beginning of all things. Science (currently) tells us that in the first trillionth of a second the Universe sprung into being from a point smaller than an atom to a dense "gas" billions of miles across, and it has been expanding ever since. I see that occurrence as violating every physical law known to science and choose to ascribe that, and all subsequent events (in a broad sense), to God. You, who have no scientific explanation for the fact that such expansion violates the universal speed (of light) limit and numerous other physical laws, seem to have faith that science will find the cause and formulate the appropriate physical laws that allow such an occurrence to happen. I respect your faith in science, but wonder if you are not just calling what I believe by a different name?

Though you took issue with every paragraph I wrote, many times I was just addressing some of the earlier questions posed in the thread, such as, “If there is a perfect god, why is there an imperfect world???” This is an important point to people who don’t believe in God. I tried to show that such a reality tends to lessen us as thinking beings. We have the freedom to act as we want and believe what we want to believe. For me, this freedom confirms the existence of God–not a God who is a puppet master or museum caretaker, but a God who is like a caring parent, who provides us the physical world and moral “tools” by which we can become better human beings, or we can choose to ignore these “tools” and turn to evil (good and evil: the subject for another thread). This brings me to an aspect of my posts that you did not address.

On the spiritual side of the subject, I am sure we disagree about the role of God as the source of moral/ethical values, but I see the existence of laws directed at helping us be better people in our many relationships, and the fact that such laws are found in all religions, as another piece of evidence that there is a God who provides the means for us to grow spiritually. Of course, you will probably counter that morality is created by the minds of people, but the fact that charity and good will is often against personal self-interest makes that explanation unlikely in my mind.

I don’t believe you will be swayed by what I have written, nor am I convinced by your arguments, but the question is a valid one and these discussions help me solidify my thinking in these matters, by raising some interesting points. But as I said to another correspondent on this issue, whole books are written to discuss these matters and what we post in this thread doesn’t really address the complexity of the subject.

To answer the tread question:


Just take a look at the history of all the main surviving religions. To be scientific or just for interest, compare them to cults and note the traits that allows a religion to survive or causes it to thrive.

All highly illuminating...

And there's some very nice Darwinian evolution in the development of religions.


Have we really progressed since the first ideas of Yahweh ("That which is.") ?


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Considering he said that is without a doubt...

Note:

To Believe is to have no Doubt whatsoever.

A TRUE Believer cannot even question...


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

A true believer CAN question his faith.

I do so every day.

I ask where, and why, and how.

And many of the questions posted here about why, if God is so perfect, has he made such an imperfect world for us to live in.

But, I always come up with the same answer.



I believe.


All your theoretical arguments cannot sway me....
Not that you are necessarily trying to do so.
You are all trying to reason with yourselves why you believe what you do.
Or don't.
And I will not try to sway you either.
Nor call you down for your lack of faith.

Faith, by it's definition, has no basis in logic or fact.....

faith [ fayth ] (plural faiths)
noun
Definition:

1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof


All I can tell you is...


I believe.

And it brings me great peace when struggling with my tormented soul.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

But doesn't it all boil down at the end of the day, to what each individual person WANTS or NEEDS to believe?

Which is perhaps where the various religious niches get filled...

Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a god, or indeed that there isn't one. ...

Douglas Adams has some very good comments on that issue and uses a beautiful analogy with the zebra crossing ...


I think a lot of it is all to do with our very social evolution...

Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Oh yee, of little faith.

So soon you give up your faith in Him.

I cannot 'convert' any of you.....nor will try.

My faith is unyielding, strong, and true.

If even one of you who do not now believe can somehow see the light...........

That would be good...........If not...... I will have this conversation on the other side.

Don't work for you?

OK..



God will save MY soul..

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

As an outside observer I have to say, that both ES99 and Quigon have both spoken quite eloquently from their respective viewpoints, and are clearly two thinking and intelligent individuals. ES99 is coming from a practical scientific viewpoint, and Quigon from more of a spiritual viewpoint.

But doesn't it all boil down at the end of the day, to what each individual person WANTS or NEEDS to believe?

Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a god, or indeed that there isn't one. It's really up to each one of us to decide what we think about it for ourselves. Having done that, I really see little point in trying to change other peoples decisions or opinions.

I find the situation of the American Evangelists who make a financial business out of it quite bizarre! You had to admire Billy Graham for his ferventness, but the others ....

I wish I could view it with your equanimity, however I think belief in god causes too many problems and is often used as a way to control people. God is something the human race really needs to grow out of before we can become more responsible for ourselves and the world we live in.

Unfortunately too many religious people try to force their world view on others, that is the nature of the god meme and the reason such a ludicrous idea has survived for so long.

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Reality Internet Personality

... something the human race really needs to grow out of before we can become more responsible for ourselves and the world we live in. ...

Well said and very much agreed.

That may well be the next crucial step of evolution needed for Mankind to survive.


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Equanimity is the unattached awareness of one's experience as a result of perceiving the impermanence of momentary reality.

okaaaay ....

Zen Buddhism?

Or just too much alcohol??


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Well..... Religion is an invention of man. A way to try and explain the natural world around him. It's never been based on empirical evidence. Just a belief....a hunch..a feeling. Why do seasons happen? Eclipses? Comets? Droughts? Floods? Before science, and evidence, was the need to explain natural phenomena. Hence, gods and religion was born. It also created an elite amongst primitive soceiety, which still exists today. The shaman, or priest class. Some studied natural events, others foretold of a 'force' that governed events. Religion and science are born. Human gullibilty has shaped events since then. Those needing to believe in something bigger than them...those who don't have the strength to shape their own future. The flock. Then there are those who question the world around them. 'Scientists' to coin a phrase these days. Those that seek the truth. The 'ye of little faith'. Science seems to be, according to Religion, yet another 'vain attempt at understanding faith'.
I'm of little faith. I want measurable results. If i had faith, i'd pray. And then an omnipotent god would answer my prayers and the world would be a much better place.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which fills up first.

Errr, no. I don't believe in an omnipotent power beyond our understanding.

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As an outside observer I have to say, that both ES99 and Quigon have both spoken quite eloquently from their respective viewpoints, and are clearly two thinking and intelligent individuals. ES99 is coming from a practical scientific viewpoint, and Quigon from more of a spiritual viewpoint.

But doesn't it all boil down at the end of the day, to what each individual person WANTS or NEEDS to believe?

Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a god, or indeed that there isn't one. It's really up to each one of us to decide what we think about it for ourselves. Having done that, I really see little point in trying to change other peoples decisions or opinions.

I find the situation of the American Evangelists who make a financial business out of it quite bizarre! You had to admire Billy Graham for his ferventness, but the others ....

I wish I could view it with your equanimity, however I think belief in god causes too many problems and is often used as a way to control people. God is something the human race really needs to grow out of before we can become more responsible for ourselves and the world we live in.

Unfortunately too many religious people try to force their world view on others, that is the nature of the god meme and the reason such a ludicrous idea has survived for so long.

Yes, many terrible things have been done--and are still being done--in the name of religion, but it does not follow that God is at fault, or that those evil acts are a proof God does not exist. Many politicians do terrible things, even in democracies, but that does not mean that democracy is at fault or that the concept itself should be rejected.

I believe that when people do bad things or incite others to do bad things in the name of religion, they are aware their actions are wrong, but for selfish reasons they continue; just as corrupt politicians know they are doing wrong, but continue anyway. To lay the blame on the "system" (looking for a broad neutral term here) instead of the individual is unsupportable. Jesus never said, "Go on a crusade to rout Moslems from the Holy land"; and Mohammed never said, "Fly a plane into the World Trade Center"; both of which resulted in the undeserved deaths of victims. It was people doing bad things in their own self interest who are to blame.

As an outside observer I have to say, that both ES99 and Quigon have both spoken quite eloquently from their respective viewpoints, and are clearly two thinking and intelligent individuals. ES99 is coming from a practical scientific viewpoint, and Quigon from more of a spiritual viewpoint.

But doesn't it all boil down at the end of the day, to what each individual person WANTS or NEEDS to believe?

Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a god, or indeed that there isn't one. It's really up to each one of us to decide what we think about it for ourselves. Having done that, I really see little point in trying to change other peoples decisions or opinions.

I find the situation of the American Evangelists who make a financial business out of it quite bizarre! You had to admire Billy Graham for his ferventness, but the others ....

I wish I could view it with your equanimity, however I think belief in god causes too many problems and is often used as a way to control people. God is something the human race really needs to grow out of before we can become more responsible for ourselves and the world we live in.

Unfortunately too many religious people try to force their world view on others, that is the nature of the god meme and the reason such a ludicrous idea has survived for so long.

Yes, many terrible things have been done--and are still being done--in the name of religion, but it does not follow that God is at fault, or that those evil acts are a proof God does not exist. Many politicians do terrible things, even in democracies, but that does not mean that democracy is at fault or that the concept itself should be rejected.

I believe that when people do bad things or incite others to do bad things in the name of religion, they are aware their actions are wrong, but for selfish reasons they continue; just as corrupt politicians know they are doing wrong, but continue anyway. To lay the blame on the "system" (looking for a broad neutral term here) instead of the individual is unsupportable. Jesus never said, "Go on a crusade to rout Moslems from the Holy land"; and Mohammed never said, "Fly a plane into the World Trade Center"; both of which resulted in the undeserved deaths of victims. It was people doing bad things in their own self interest who are to blame.

I quite agree, although I am an unbeliever - and quite proud of it.

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Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!

I am going to quote you a passage of the Koran which looks has to think:
" If God had put the Angels on the Earth, He would have sent them the Angels as Messenger ".
momo19

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" All The Universe sings the Praises Of Your Lord, but you do not understand its singing(song) ".

I could spout my reasons for none belief, but someone else has already taken the time and made the effort. I'll just provide the link to an essay written on why one would not believe.

http://www.evilbible.com/why_i_am_not_a_christian.htm

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I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

I don't believe in a god because there is no documented evidence of one that can be verified or tested.

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Click here to listen to my music!

I'm a baptized protestant and had the confirmation.

But since my brother died - I guess, think - here is no God.
Why need to be his wife and son to be alone? He grow up without a Dad.
Why need my parents loose a son?
Why I need to loose my brother?

This is only one story of one family.

Why is here so much pain in the world if here would be a God?

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If something bad happen (like this), the people say always: 'There is always a good reason for everything what God do.'

This is BS!

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If something bad happen (like this), the people say always: 'There is always a good reason for everything what God do.'

This is BS!

"If you can't say something good about the dead don't say anything at all. Well, he's dead and that's good." Redd Foxx

---

Unvarnished
Haaretz
Jerusalem Post
The origin of the Yahweh Cult

If something bad happen (like this), the people say always: 'There is always a good reason for everything what God do.'

This is BS!

"If you can't say something good about the dead don't say anything at all. Well, he's dead and that's good." Redd Foxx

I don't know this person.
After Wiki it's a comedian.

So I don't know why you quoting this from him.
Here is no comedy. Here is the real life.

Perhaps you don't have the properties 'compassion' & 'sensitivity'.

Maybe it would be better for me to stay out of the politics subforum..

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If something bad happen (like this), the people say always: 'There is always a good reason for everything what God do.'

This is BS!

"If you can't say something good about the dead don't say anything at all. Well, he's dead and that's good." Redd Foxx

I don't know this person.
After Wiki it's a comedian.

So I don't know why you quoting this from him.
Here is no comedy. Here is the real life.

Perhaps you don't have the properties 'compassion' & 'sensitivity'.

Maybe it would be better for me to stay out of the politics subforum..

Everyone knows Redd Foxx.

As to compassion, what do you expect from a single parent who sends his son to earth on a suicide mission?

---

Unvarnished
Haaretz
Jerusalem Post
The origin of the Yahweh Cult