If its physically big enough and it as it blows and also creates a back pressure wave, it may turn into a black hole...

That would be trouble for the neighbourhood.. including earth.

It's nearly 600ly away...a black hole there wouldn't affect us one bit.

I read It is 640ly, In any case I agree It isn't near enough to do diddly squat to US, But We'll get a bang out of watchin It go BOOOM! :)

Wikipedia gives two figures...430ly and 570ly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betelgeuse#Fate

NASA gives 640ly, and this appears to be an explanation as to the different sizes:

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/06/09_betelim.shtml

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You will be assimilated...bunghole!

If its physically big enough and it as it blows and also creates a back pressure wave, it may turn into a black hole...

That would be trouble for the neighbourhood.. including earth.

It's nearly 600ly away...a black hole there wouldn't affect us one bit.

I read It is 640ly, In any case I agree It isn't near enough to do diddly squat to US, But We'll get a bang out of watchin It go BOOOM! :)

Wikipedia gives two figures...430ly and 570ly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betelgeuse#Fate

NASA gives 640ly, and this appears to be an explanation as to the different sizes:

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/06/09_betelim.shtml

In any case, From what I've read It's too far away, It'll make a nice light show, Day or Night, Possibly for Months, That will be something to experience alright.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

The Aug 5th, 2009, APOD shows a previously unseen plume emerging from the big star.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090805.html

Is it possible that Betelgeuse has a previously unseen/undetected close neighbor? Or took a near-miss shot from a passing object that is still pulling material away from it?

Martin
[edited to add img url]

The Aug 5th, 2009, APOD shows a previously unseen plume emerging from the big star.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090805.html

Is it possible that Betelgeuse has a previously unseen/undetected close neighbor? Or took a near-miss shot from a passing object that is still pulling material away from it?

Martin
[edited to add img url]

Nah, It's just a stellar fart that Beetlejuice did. ;)

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

If its physically big enough and it as it blows and also creates a back pressure wave, it may turn into a black hole...

That would be trouble for the neighbourhood.. including earth.

It's nearly 600ly away...a black hole there wouldn't affect us one bit.

folks
500-600Ly is inside the neighbourhood. The gravitational effect of a blackhole (if one existed within this range) would make a difference... it may be small but it would be constant, over time. The initial distortion ripples would easily be measured here. I most certainly wont be alive to see the event, but a supernova would be preferable to a black hole. The nova happens once and is gone, a black hole continually consumes matter and distorts space like a sink without the plug in place...

Remember we are in a galaxy that is slowly being consumed by a large black hole in the middle. We are sliding down a long spiral causeway.

Conjecture: Eventually it will either consume the lot or it will reach a "full" level and perhaps it may be possible that it will explode violently showering what is left with intense radiation at multiple frequencies.

Pure conjecture on my part but perhaps this is what creates ring galaxies, the middle is eaten away and perhaps when the blackhole finally explodes it pushes the remains outwards and onwards. It would be interesting to see what the x-ray and gamma ray images of these ring galaxies is like.

Remember we are in a galaxy that is slowly being consumed by a large black hole in the middle. We are sliding down a long spiral causeway.

Not really...this far away we're in no danger from being swallowed by the black hole in the center of the galaxy. Most stars in most galaxies are in stable orbits and will never even come close to the center.

A normal black hole is even less dangerous. The only way a black hole 600ly away could affect us is if it emitted jets of matter and energy directly towards us. The gravitational ripples from it's formation will be temporary.

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You will be assimilated...bunghole!

If its physically big enough and it as it blows and also creates a back pressure wave, it may turn into a black hole...

That would be trouble for the neighbourhood.. including earth.

It's nearly 600ly away...a black hole there wouldn't affect us one bit.

folks
500-600Ly is inside the neighbourhood. The gravitational effect of a blackhole (if one existed within this range) would make a difference... it may be small but it would be constant, over time. The initial distortion ripples would easily be measured here. I most certainly wont be alive to see the event, but a supernova would be preferable to a black hole. The nova happens once and is gone, a black hole continually consumes matter and distorts space like a sink without the plug in place...

Remember we are in a galaxy that is slowly being consumed by a large black hole in the middle. We are sliding down a long spiral causeway.

Conjecture: Eventually it will either consume the lot or it will reach a "full" level and perhaps it may be possible that it will explode violently showering what is left with intense radiation at multiple frequencies.

Pure conjecture on my part but perhaps this is what creates ring galaxies, the middle is eaten away and perhaps when the blackhole finally explodes it pushes the remains outwards and onwards. It would be interesting to see what the x-ray and gamma ray images of these ring galaxies is like.

Maybe that explains why Humans are so Batty. ;) [Pardon the Pun]

Events like a Supernovae are so pretty.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Are you folks sure about the lack of effect on Earth? I remember reading somewhere that the radiation from a Supernova "near" us could make the Earth uninhabitable...so how near is "near"?
Remember, a SN can be as bright as a whole Galaxy - the equivalent of billions of stars....

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Are you folks sure about the lack of effect on Earth? I remember reading somewhere that the radiation from a Supernova "near" us could make the Earth uninhabitable...so how near is "near"?
Remember, a SN can be as bright as a whole Galaxy - the equivalent of billions of stars....

Pretty sure. :) If a supernova were 100ly away, then I'd be lining my house with lead right about now. 600ly however, is safe...unless it's a gamma ray burst. If it's a GRB, then we'd need to be MUCH farther away.

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You will be assimilated...bunghole!

Are you folks sure about the lack of effect on Earth? I remember reading somewhere that the radiation from a Supernova "near" us could make the Earth uninhabitable...so how near is "near"?
Remember, a SN can be as bright as a whole Galaxy - the equivalent of billions of stars....

Pretty sure. :) If a supernova were 100ly away, then I'd be lining my house with lead right about now. 600ly however, is safe...unless it's a gamma ray burst. If it's a GRB, then we'd need to be MUCH farther away.

And wouldn't You know It, There is one potential GRB(WR 104 wolf-rayet) that is staring down the barrel right at the earth. If It goes, Kiss some of the Ozone layer(or a good amount of It) Goodbye, Lead may not help much. Oh and It's 8,000ly away.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Hi!

I don't understand why a black hole "created by" betageuze means trouble. As far as I understand it the mass of that black hole would be smaler than that of betageuze today or nearly equal. That means the the gravitational influance on the neighborhood should be the same.

Radiation and gravty waves might be something different depending on the distance.



Tschüß

Jürgen

the problem is the gravity well that is created. as the black hole eats everything in its vicinity it will increase its gravitational influence as it increases its mass. You may recall that gravity affects everything instantly so increased gravitational influences would hit us instantly. I'd assume the distance and size of a black hole that distant wouldn't be that great right away. most likely it would take thousands of years for it to actually cause any actual movement on this solar system

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

the problem is the gravity well that is created. as the black hole eats everything in its vicinity it will increase its gravitational influence as it increases its mass. You may recall that gravity affects everything instantly so increased gravitational influences would hit us instantly. I'd assume the distance and size of a black hole that distant wouldn't be that great right away. most likely it would take thousands of years for it to actually cause any actual movement on this solar system

Perhaps, but what exactly would it gobble up? Aside from any matter not ejected by the force of the supernova, there wouldn't be much to eat in that part of the sky.

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You will be assimilated...bunghole!

the problem is the gravity well that is created. as the black hole eats everything in its vicinity it will increase its gravitational influence as it increases its mass.

Perhaps only if you were close enough to be orbiting it. Otherwise, the total gravitational attraction for that part of space remains unchanged. It's only that the mass becomes more concentrated in one small volume. The total mass may well decrease more rapidly due to increased energy release.

... that gravity affects everything instantly so increased gravitational influences would hit us instantly.

...And that is a very good question. If that were so, then our understanding of physics doesn't work due to the implied breakdown of causality. So what does actually happen?

I'd assume the distance and size of a black hole that distant wouldn't be that great right away. most likely it would take thousands of years for it to actually cause any actual movement on this solar system

If the total mass of the region remains unchanged, as it must do unless other objects interfere, then we won't notice any galactic orbital perturbations here.


e@h would hopefully be looking for any gravitational ripples and comparing them with the time-of-flight times from the same events as viewed across the electro-magnetic spectrum and for any particle pulses. That would be very interesting for how fast things happen, and why.

Who knows until we see one?

Keep searchin',
Martin

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