This woman died as a result of a mistake--she wasn't sent away to die. I would think that people would rather die as a result of mistake, than be sent home to ponder their impending death. That's just speculation on my part, of course.

Well it doesn't sound like a mistake. She was left for an hour on a waiting room floor while people looked on. That's no 'mistake'.

So then, whose fault was it? The other people sitting there who did nothing? The security guards who did nothing? The nurse who did nothing? One of them is the likely culprit, but you seem to want to impugn an entire health care system because of it. That doesn't make any sense because it's too attenuated.

No, it was to illustrate that people can get crappy medical attention no matter where they are, to illustrate that no system will keep 100% of people alive 100% of the time, and to illustrate that socialized medicine isn't "free" by any sense of the term.

I have no illusions about American medical care--it is some of the best in the world, but given the amount of gov't meddling, it is horribly horribly restricted. At least, if you aren't happy with it, you can go somewhere else, or choose a different insurance company.

That bit about no everyone being able to afford health care went right by you didn't it. At least Brainsmashr is honest.

I responded to you specifically. You said, "...and yet you've posted the few mistakes made in socialised medicine as if they were common," and I explained the real reason I posted them, as noted above.

If your point was that not everyone can afford health care, you should have said that. I could have just used one word to respond to that: Duh.

As far as BrainSmashr being honest, well, yeah, I would expect he would be, given that he did express his opinion.

Actually, this is a glimpse of what sometimes happens in any medical system, anywhere--people make mistakes.

Rush. You have a strange concept of what a mistake is.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you suggesting that someone knew she would die, and therefore left her there to do so, thus intending to kill her, and therefore it was not a mistake?

If not, yeah, it was a mistake. People die in hospitals world wide, under every system, sometimes from neglect, nosocomial infections, treatment errors, et cetera. Those are mistakes, they are unintentional, but they do happen. That humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them is part of the human condition, and not a condemnation of any particular medical system.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Really?

So it's "logical" to post something you didn't mean then return later to remove it?

Funny, people who actually utilize logical thought (as opposed to just being trained to do so) might suggest that saying nothing at all would have been the logical choice.

Imagine how much money you could have saved buying a mop and bucket instead of an education that you don't seem to use...

Is it logical to insult people with every post Brainsmashr? Yet you do it all the time. Most of the time I ignore it..today I lost my temper and posted something that was meaner than I meant it to be. I am sorry..because even though you are unpleasant to everyone and insulting I still think you should be treated with compassion because I suspect there are things in your life that make you treat people the way you do.

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Reality Internet Personality

So then, whose fault was it? The other people sitting there who did nothing?

Yes

The security guards who did nothing?

Yes

The nurse who did nothing?

Yes

One of them is the likely culprit, but you seem to want to impugn an entire health care system because of it. That doesn't make any sense because it's too attenuated.

...and more than any individual..the healthcare system is at fault.

I responded to you specifically. You said, "...and yet you've posted the few mistakes made in socialised medicine as if they were common," and I explained the real reason I posted them, as noted above.

If your point was that not everyone can afford health care, you should have said that. I could have just used one word to respond to that: Duh.

As far as BrainSmashr being honest, well, yeah, I would expect he would be, given that he did express his opinion.

I think all sick people should get help. Even poor people should get the best help available. That is what I think..because that is how a civilised society treats it's sick, it's poor and it's helpless. I want to live in a civilised society.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you suggesting that someone knew she would die, and therefore left her there to do so, thus intending to kill her, and therefore it was not a mistake?

If not, yeah, it was a mistake. People die in hospitals world wide, under every system, sometimes from neglect, nosocomial infections, treatment errors, et cetera. Those are mistakes, they are unintentional, but they do happen. That humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them is part of the human condition, and not a condemnation of any particular medical system.

I think it's better to help everyone you can rather than just helping the rich really well.

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Reality Internet Personality

Really?

So it's "logical" to post something you didn't mean then return later to remove it?

Funny, people who actually utilize logical thought (as opposed to just being trained to do so) might suggest that saying nothing at all would have been the logical choice.

Imagine how much money you could have saved buying a mop and bucket instead of an education that you don't seem to use...

Is it logical to insult people with every post Brainsmashr? Yet you do it all the time. Most of the time I ignore it..today I lost my temper and posted something that was meaner than I meant it to be. I am sorry..because even though you are unpleasant to everyone and insulting I still think you should be treated with compassion because I suspect there are things in your life that make you treat people the way you do.

But what you think and what you do aren't always the same thing, are they?

Pssst, that's called hypocrisy, and yes it IS one of those things that makes me treat people "that way".

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But what you think and what you do aren't always the same thing, are they?

Pssst, that's called hypocrisy, and yes it IS one of those things that makes me treat people "that way".

You think I am being hypocritical when I say I think you deserve compassion? You really cannot stomach the idea can you? You will wriggle and say anything to make it not true.

Well I do think you deserve compassion. I may not agree with any of your opinions but I know that in real life you help people less fortunate than you. I know that you have probably had a much harder life than I have had. I know that your opinions are shaped by those experiences, and from your opinions I strongly suspect that those experiences have been bad. How could I not feel compassion for you?

..and you know what..if you had no money..no job...nothing I would still think you deserved the best healthcare available.

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Reality Internet Personality

But what you think and what you do aren't always the same thing, are they?

Pssst, that's called hypocrisy, and yes it IS one of those things that makes me treat people "that way".

You think I am being hypocritical when I say I think you deserve compassion? You really cannot stomach the idea can you? You will wriggle and say anything to make it not true.

No, I think you're being hypocritical when you say I deserve compassion then question my intelligence while implying yours is superior with a grossly inaccurate comparison.

Well I do think you deserve compassion. I may not agree with any of your opinions but I know that in real life you help people less fortunate than you. I know that you have probably had a much harder life than I have had. I know that your opinions are shaped by those experiences, and from your opinions I strongly suspect that those experiences have been bad. How could I not feel compassion for you?

Would it surprise you greatly to find out the exact opposite?

..and you know what..if you had no money..no job...nothing I would still think you deserved the best healthcare available.

Hey, that's fine and dandy....except YOU don't have the means to pay for it and I don't think society should be forced to fulfill YOUR pipe dream.

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No, I think you're being hypocritical when you say I deserve compassion then question my intelligence while implying yours is superior with a grossly inaccurate comparison.

Brainsmashr. It was you that was questioning mine. Have you forgotten?

Would it surprise you greatly to find out the exact opposite?

Not greatly. But I don't think I am wrong.

Hey, that's fine and dandy....except YOU don't have the means to pay for it and I don't think society should be forced to fulfill YOUR pipe dream.

but I already do pay for the healthcare of people less fortunate than me in my taxes. People just like you..and I know that some of my taxes are even spent of Daily Mail readers.

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Reality Internet Personality

Brainsmashr. It was you that was questioning mine. Have you forgotten?

LAF

Does that somehow make your reply "compassionate"?

Not greatly. But I don't think I am wrong.

Feel free to send me a list of questions via private message and we'll see just how wrong you are.

A single white male in America who's largest responsibility is a house note that's about 1/4th my monthly income. I promise you, my life isn't, nor has it ever been, excessively hard.

but I already do pay for the healthcare of people less fortunate than me in my taxes. People just like you..and I know that some of my taxes are even spent of Daily Mail readers.

YOU only pay a fraction of the total cost (and I'm SURE it's no more than your "fair share"), the rest of us are FORCED to do so against our will....but that's what you want, right?

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LAF

Does that somehow make your reply "compassionate"?

My reply was what it was...it was me pointing out that I have a training in logic and you don't. Is your job something that merits compassion? Should I feel sorry for you because of what you do for a living? You seem to want it both ways.

Feel free to send me a list of questions via private message and we'll see just how wrong you are.

A single white male in America who's largest responsibility is a house note that's about 1/4th my monthly income. I promise you, my life isn't, nor has it ever been, excessively hard.

I think you should have that discussion with someone else.

YOU only pay a fraction of the total cost (and I'm SURE it's no more than your "fair share"), the rest of us are FORCED to do so against our will....but that's what you want, right?

Do you know what Tuberculosis does when untreated? Do you know the real cost to you of sick people who go untreated? Do you think you are actually saving money by not making sure all those living around you are healthy and free from disease?

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Reality Internet Personality

you may talk, but that kind of thing should not happen anywhere. period,

One of them is the likely culprit, but you seem to want to impugn an entire health care system because of it. That doesn't make any sense because it's too attenuated.

...and more than any individual..the healthcare system is at fault.

No, the system isn't at fault because those things happen under ANY system, no matter what, humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them. There is no duty to act for most of them.

I think all sick people should get help. Even poor people should get the best help available. That is what I think..because that is how a civilised society treats it's sick, it's poor and it's helpless. I want to live in a civilised society.

But they don't, and you aren't willing to provide it for them. 99% of the poor people don't get any help at all. And there are plenty of civilized societies that don't provide health care for their citizens. Regardless, they still pay for it, dearly.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you suggesting that someone knew she would die, and therefore left her there to do so, thus intending to kill her, and therefore it was not a mistake?

If not, yeah, it was a mistake. People die in hospitals world wide, under every system, sometimes from neglect, nosocomial infections, treatment errors, et cetera. Those are mistakes, they are unintentional, but they do happen. That humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them is part of the human condition, and not a condemnation of any particular medical system.

I think it's better to help everyone you can rather than just helping the rich really well.

That's nice that you think that. But the type of mistakes I mentioned, or that resulted in the death of that woman, can and do kill people regardless of their socio-economic status.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I promise you, my life isn't, nor has it ever been, excessively hard.

Which would explain why you haven't learned any of life's lessons... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

One of them is the likely culprit, but you seem to want to impugn an entire health care system because of it. That doesn't make any sense because it's too attenuated.

...and more than any individual..the healthcare system is at fault.

No, the system isn't at fault because those things happen under ANY system, no matter what, humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them. There is no duty to act for most of them.

I think all sick people should get help. Even poor people should get the best help available. That is what I think..because that is how a civilised society treats it's sick, it's poor and it's helpless. I want to live in a civilised society.

But they don't, and you aren't willing to provide it for them. 99% of the poor people don't get any help at all. And there are plenty of civilized societies that don't provide health care for their citizens. Regardless, they still pay for it, dearly.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you suggesting that someone knew she would die, and therefore left her there to do so, thus intending to kill her, and therefore it was not a mistake?

If not, yeah, it was a mistake. People die in hospitals world wide, under every system, sometimes from neglect, nosocomial infections, treatment errors, et cetera. Those are mistakes, they are unintentional, but they do happen. That humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them is part of the human condition, and not a condemnation of any particular medical system.

I think it's better to help everyone you can rather than just helping the rich really well.

That's nice that you think that. But the type of mistakes I mentioned, or that resulted in the death of that woman, can and do kill people regardless of their socio-economic status.

Well Rush. I've been very poor..and yet I got the best healthcare when I was sick. I've always been thankful to a system that saved my life when I had no money at the time.

The lady that died...she was mentally ill. The hospital was a mental hospital. She didn't get the care she deserved because she had no money.

So the US has the best healthcare in the world..but it's only there for a few. Aren't you all Americans? Why does money matter more than people?

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Reality Internet Personality

One of them is the likely culprit, but you seem to want to impugn an entire health care system because of it. That doesn't make any sense because it's too attenuated.

...and more than any individual..the healthcare system is at fault.

No, the system isn't at fault because those things happen under ANY system, no matter what, humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them. There is no duty to act for most of them.

I think all sick people should get help. Even poor people should get the best help available. That is what I think..because that is how a civilised society treats it's sick, it's poor and it's helpless. I want to live in a civilised society.

But they don't all get help, and you, and everyone that thinks like you do aren't willing to provide it for them, either. 99% of the poor people don't get any help at all, and they certainly don't get it from you.

There are plenty of civilized societies that don't provide health care for their citizens, seein' as that ain't the definition of "civilized." Regardless, those that do get it, still pay for it, dearly.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you suggesting that someone knew she would die, and therefore left her there to do so, thus intending to kill her, and therefore it was not a mistake?

If not, yeah, it was a mistake. People die in hospitals world wide, under every system, sometimes from neglect, nosocomial infections, treatment errors, et cetera. Those are mistakes, they are unintentional, but they do happen. That humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them is part of the human condition, and not a condemnation of any particular medical system.

I think it's better to help everyone you can rather than just helping the rich really well.

That's nice that you think that. But the type of mistakes I mentioned, or that resulted in the death of that woman, can and do kill people regardless of their socio-economic status.

Well Rush. I've been very poor..and yet I got the best healthcare when I was sick. I've always been thankful to a system that saved my life when I had no money at the time.

Why wouldn't it? You paid dearly for it, you do every day. In everything you buy. It's just one more of a 1000 reasons why it's so brutally expensive here--the gov't puts endless upward pressure on costs. You get a lil' health care, you get a lil' War in Iraq.

Funnily enough, you would have gotten the same care here, when you had no money at the time. You keep acting as if that isn't true, or refusing to accept that that is true.

Not, of course, that these statements have much to do with the points above, but that's OK.

The lady that died...she was mentally ill. The hospital was a mental hospital. She didn't get the care she deserved because she had no money.

No, she didn't get any care at all because people are sometimes apathetic to others, and that happens everywhere, under any system.

So the US has the best healthcare in the world..but it's only there for a few. Aren't you all Americans? Why does money matter more than people?

Except that it's not only there for a few, even though you keep repeating that as if it were true. Somewhere near 80 percent of Americans have health insurance, and many of the rest choose to do without, just like I did for nearly 15 years. I didn't even bother to buy major medical that covers little but catastrophic issues, even though it is relatively cheap. Nearly everyone I worked with at the time did the exact same thing.

I didn't say money matters more than people, nor do I accept your statement that that is the situation as it isn't. At the very least, it's an unwillingness to abdicate complete and utter control over life and death situations to mindless bureaucrats.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

LAF

Does that somehow make your reply "compassionate"?

My reply was what it was...it was me pointing out that I have a training in logic and you don't.

If that's "all" it was, then why were you returning to delete/edit it?

here, let me refresh your memory:

Actually I came back to delete that comment because it was a cheap shot and beneath me.

Beneath you is something you wouldn't do. Trying to cover your tracks before someone finds out is a sign of false virtue...remember what that makes you?

Is your job something that merits compassion? Should I feel sorry for you because of what you do for a living? You seem to want it both ways.

Quite the contrary...it's you who thinks I want one or both of those.

Personally, I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about my job. It pays my bills and gives me a sense of fulfillment since I'm actually helping people in my community rather than preaching about how much better it should be for them.

Feel free to send me a list of questions via private message and we'll see just how wrong you are.

A single white male in America who's largest responsibility is a house note that's about 1/4th my monthly income. I promise you, my life isn't, nor has it ever been, excessively hard.

I think you should have that discussion with someone else.

No one else seems to think I'm a troubled man hurting on the inside. Most see me as a typical republican...fat rich white guy with VERY few problems.

YOU only pay a fraction of the total cost (and I'm SURE it's no more than your "fair share"), the rest of us are FORCED to do so against our will....but that's what you want, right?

Do you know what Tuberculosis does when untreated? Do you know the real cost to you of sick people who go untreated? Do you think you are actually saving money by not making sure all those living around you are healthy and free from disease?

Do you know that death also has a funny way of stopping a sick person from infecting others...and it doesn't cost uninvolved people any of THEIR hard earned cash.

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You two should get married.

"This woman died as a result of a mistake..."

When you watch the tapes from the camera in the ER, it's immediately obvious that this isn't true. It was no mistake. She died because nobody there gave a damn.

"America has the best health care in the world." This is lie, and everyone in the U.S. who's been without insurance long enough to be sick knows full well that it's a lie. America has some of the best medical technology in the world. But that's not the same thing, is it?

Cuba has a better infant mortality rate than the US. By any statistical measure except money spent, health care here is on a par with that in Turkey. This is not a matter of honest debate amongst people of differing opinions. This is fight for the wealth being generated by so-called health care as it's practiced here now. Those who want to withhold health care from those who can't pay whatever ransome is demanded are evil.

Yes, the woman who died in the NYC ER was a mental patient. If she had other health problems, they were no doubt ignored because she was "crazy." There is no meaningful mental health care in the U.S. outside the walls of in-patient psychiatric facilites. We have lots of little "counselors" and "psychotherapists" who will talk to you about your marriage problems or a passing bout of depression. But they can't prescribe medication. We have lots of family MDs who will write a script for a minimal dose of Prozac. But if you're havng serious issues and need a psychiatrist, the waiting list is at least 6 months long anywhere in the country. If you're in troube, you have no choice but to put yourself at he mercy of a county or city in-patient facility.

The little capitalist hotshots who post here won't know this, but until about 1970 there was an extensive mental health care infrastructure in the U.S., generally state-run. It wasn't pretty, and abuses were sometimes horrible, but it was there. It was scrapped in favor of a federally-funded system of "community-based care." Of course, Congress never got around to funding that program. So state hospitals were shut down and the mentally ill they took care of were simply turned loose on the streets, where they still live and die today.

BrainsmashR wrote"

"You don't DESERVE medical treatment just because you're sick. Some one has to pay for it, and if it's me...you're gonna die."

This is an utterly disgusting statement. What the hell's wrong with you?

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"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else." (Han Solo)

In Plain Sight, A Woman Dies Unassisted on Hospital Floor

I'm guessing she was one of the many poor Americans who can't afford decent healthcare.

Bejesus woman, what is it with you? I suggest that before you start running down the USA about matters like this, you START TO CLEAN UP BRITAIN FIRST!

Or don't you bother reading/watching UK Media? Oh, I forgot, you think it's a government conspiracy!

God help the children you teach!

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Rush wrote:

"...humans are sometimes apathetic to those around them. There is no duty to act for most of them."

Really? So human life has no intrinsic value? Are you prepared to die for this belief of yours? One of these days it's quite possible you'll be in the street needing CPR. Am I--or some lefty like me--going to give it to you? Am I willing to assume the health risks of doing that, let alone the yuck factor? Let's see...If I don't give you CPR, your eyes roll up into your head and you drown in your own mucus or vomit. If I do, then I get to share all your nasty biological symptoms and puke my guts out later thinking about it, but at least I have the consolation that I did the right, best thing. What will you have, except your own miserable life back?

Have you ever cared for those who were dying, or hauled corpses to the morgue? I think if you had, you wouldn't talk like such a fool.

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"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else." (Han Solo)

Interesting how the government can spend so much on wars and still "lose" 2.5 trillion dollars of our money into thin air.

How they can ship food and aid half way around the world to help others faster than they can get water to New Orleans after Katrina.

Why should politicians help us out when part of the profits go straight into their pockets from medical ins and pharma co's? Because we elect and pay them too? I guess we just don't pay ENOUGH, in their eyes!

Amazing really.

See more...

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss