Speed of Light, and space travel.

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Message 855296 - Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 4:37:12 UTC - in response to Message 855264.  


[
. . . Tesla - Tachyon Fields

. . . Tachyon Fields by Dr. Hans A. Nieper (The Symposium on Energy Technology in Hannover, November 27 and 28, 1980)

. . . Tachyon Fields by Dr. Hans A. Nieper pdf file

. . . Of Tesla and Tachyons

. . . have fun - i shall now proceed to make dinner for Lady Joanne & i - then watCh ! 'the Visitor'

l8Tr . . .




Funny how independent third party laboratories are never allowed to have a close, sceptical look at these devices.

Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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Message 855520 - Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 21:46:54 UTC

If I'm not mistaken, a major strategic goal of the Large Hadron Collider is to evaluate the Standard Model. If the Standard Model can be experimentally verified, that will in turn validate both Quantum Theory and Relativity. (Both kinds.) But if not, then the flood gates are thrown open and physics is in chaos. Either way, stay tuned for surprises, I bet.

Also of interest is the work being done with Bose-Einstein condensates. The speed of light is reduces to near zero in these substances. See Wiki or:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/2242


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Message 855692 - Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 7:18:20 UTC - in response to Message 855520.  

If I'm not mistaken, a major strategic goal of the Large Hadron Collider is to evaluate the Standard Model. If the Standard Model can be experimentally verified, that will in turn validate both Quantum Theory and Relativity. (Both kinds.) But if not, then the flood gates are thrown open and physics is in chaos. Either way, stay tuned for surprises, I bet.

Also of interest is the work being done with Bose-Einstein condensates. The speed of light is reduces to near zero in these substances. See Wiki or:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/2242


Interesting article but I am not sure how it applies to this particular discussion about faster than light travel.

Special Relativity has the well known (and usually wildly misunderstood) E=MC^2 equation. Which devolves the equally famous (or infamous) statement that “nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum” (also, please note the "in a vacuum” bit; because that is also integral to the “relativity bit.”) Put it in computer terms: this is Relativity V 1.9.0.5.

The LHC experiments may (or may not) help unite Quantum Theory and General Relativity. But General Relativity (Relativity V 1.9.1.5) is a completely different animal since it is about gravity, not energy.

Clearly the two theories, arising as they do from the same mind, are interconnected. Indeed, often thought of as variants of the same theory in the public’s mind. But, in truth, they are vastly different concepts describing vastly different things. If you want to talk FTL, you do need to get it past the first before considering the second. So, just considering Special Relativity (the simpler E=MC^2, FYL theory):

You cannot travel faster than light travels in a vacuum. (Approx 300 000 km/sec). Full stop. End of sentence.

I haven’t studied the math about the Bose-Einstein condensate that you referenced, so I have no real statement to make. (Give me a month or so. I am slow at math so it takes me awhile to grasp it’s subtleties.)

But, I am pretty sure that interstellar space is not composed of densely packed Bose-Einstein Condensate so, for the purposes of this thread, light speed remains the upper limit. Alpha Centauri is approximately 4.3 light years away, I have not seen anything yet to make me believe that travel between here and there in less (Earth) time is possible.
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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Message 855723 - Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 11:19:32 UTC

THE LHC AT CERN

If the Higgs Boson is discovered it will simply confirm that super symmetry is a valid way of looking at the universe of the very small. It will move towards the notion of the "true" nature of mass. It will not "prove" quantum theory or relativity they are quite well proven now.

It would move us closer to the elusive Grand Unified Theory (GUT) which would marry up relativity with Quantum theory.
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Message 856268 - Posted: 22 Jan 2009, 3:23:04 UTC

Kenzie, I didn't mean to toss a red herring with the Bose-Einsten thing, but perhaps I did, and you're exactly right. I'm probably far worse at math than you are, but I do appreciate the poetry of Special Relativity, I hope. E=MC^2 is elegant beyond belief. C is the speed limit, not by decree but because it just is. There may be ways to get around it. We don't know enough to rule on that. it may be possible to manipulate space-time locally, and build a warp drove or jump gates. We don't know enough to say one way or the other. But we aren't going to accelerate a spaceship or a Volkswagen to lightspeed ever, no matter what. Not even close. We do know that! At C, the mass of the Volkswagen is infinite, and it would take infinite energy to get it to that speed. Ain't gonna happen....
"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else." (Han Solo)
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Message 856344 - Posted: 22 Jan 2009, 9:25:06 UTC - in response to Message 856268.  

Kenzie, I didn't mean to toss a red herring with the Bose-Einsten thing, but perhaps I did, and you're exactly right. I'm probably far worse at math than you are, but I do appreciate the poetry of Special Relativity, I hope. E=MC^2 is elegant beyond belief. C is the speed limit, not by decree but because it just is. There may be ways to get around it. We don't know enough to rule on that. it may be possible to manipulate space-time locally, and build a warp drove or jump gates. We don't know enough to say one way or the other. But we aren't going to accelerate a spaceship or a Volkswagen to lightspeed ever, no matter what. Not even close. We do know that! At C, the mass of the Volkswagen is infinite, and it would take infinite energy to get it to that speed. Ain't gonna happen....

I didn’t mean to be picky. I am just contrary by nature. (!!!)

It isn’t just mass/energy requirements: time is against ever attaining light-speed. It would take an infinite amount of time to accelerate that last little bit from 0.999... to 1. (To be fair, tho, mass, energy and time are just three ways of saying the same thing.)

Worm holes are conceivable but, from what I understand, would take the power of a good sized galaxy of stars to make one large enough and stable enough to use. Outside what I see in Star Trek and StarGate TV shows, I don’t know anything at all about warp drives or jump gates.

I remember reading awhile ago about a technique to simulate the equivalent of instantaneous travel by using a black hole to reverse time.

Say you wanted to set up trade routes between us and A Centauri (about 4.3 LY away.) Build a black hole in space, half way between here and there. Then the ships traveling back and forth (with their crews in suspended animation) travel to the black hole at a speed comfortably below light speed. (Say, taking 10 years to travel the 2.15 LY distance). Then, use the black hole to send your ship back in time 20 years (the author was a bit fuzzy on the details of how that would work!) and continue on your way, flying another 10 years to arrive at A Centauri at about the same time that you left Earth.

Obviously, there are one or two minor theoretical and engineering details to be sorted out. :P

Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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Message 856421 - Posted: 22 Jan 2009, 13:49:33 UTC - in response to Message 856344.  

The more we try to understand the universe , the more the lines between fact and fiction become blurred . I thought that black holes were supposed to be so dense that not even light could escape , then how are we to use it for travel other than use of its gravity to increase our velocity, but that wont take us any were near the speed of light or will it.
We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy
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Message 856657 - Posted: 23 Jan 2009, 2:14:28 UTC

Its been theorized that, due to gravitational distortions of space-time, passing thru certain areas near a rotating or electrically charged black hole would allow a ship to move backward in time. Roger Penrose produced some diagrams quite a few years ago that explain how this should work. I have serious doubts that any form of time travel into the past can work. The paradoxes produced by it seem to indicate that any attempt to do so would cancel itself out, logically and causally speaking. Michael
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Message 856752 - Posted: 23 Jan 2009, 9:54:54 UTC

For those who want to travel at or faster than speed of light, try removing the mass factor by applying the Gaxaly clock theory and see if you dont attain it

GALAXY CLOCK THEORY.
We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy
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Message 857919 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 3:05:10 UTC - in response to Message 856752.  

Citing yourself, Kasule? Sorry, but that carries no weight. If you have a theory to offer, where's the math? Let's see the math, please. Without rigorous math this is all just nonsense. If all you have to sell is snake oil, take it down the road, please!
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Message 857958 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 4:51:43 UTC

I am going to try and explain this as simply as I can.

When a physicist refers to a photon (or an electron or any other sub-atom sized item) as behaving like a wave or behaving like a particle, we need to remember the inclusion of the word “like” in the statement. They are similes and metaphors, not reality.

Events at the subatomic scale are so far outside normal human experience that the human mind is literally not capable of grasping what is happening. So we create convenient ‘real world’ metaphors (particles and waves for example) to allow us (laypersons and physicists alike) to get our heads around the concepts. But it should always be remembered that these are metaphors for things that can only be described mathematically.

For those of us (most of us, I would guess) who don’t really get the math behind this, we should always remember that a photon of light doesn’t really exist as a discrete particle, nor does it really exist as a wave. Though it can behave like it was a particle or a wave (or even both at the same time) that particle or wave concept is just a simile, not reality.

I do understand the burning need to believe in UFO’s as aliens or in faster-than-light travel. But it is all magical thinking. It is the innate desire for there to be something more. (In the past, humans believed in fairies in the trees, that the wind was a god’s breath, that there was an invisible man in the sky who sent us 10 commandments.) Most of us have evolved intellectually beyond believing in such superstitions but the urge to believe is part of the human mind and so the temptation to grab on to modern day gods and daemons, like alien visits.

The universe that we live in simply doesn’t allow for it. And despite how much we may want it otherwise, there is no way around it. There is no god, no Santa Clause and no aliens hovering over the Nevada deserts. I really wish it were otherwise, but that is just the way that it is.

As Sparrow said, if this Galaxy Clock Theory is to have any validity it must exist as more than just a mistaking of metaphor for reality, but as a mathematically based theory. Without that, just more magical thinking.
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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Message 857980 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 5:58:29 UTC - in response to Message 857919.  
Last modified: 26 Jan 2009, 6:09:26 UTC

They way things work is like this, first there is an idea then there proper scrutiny by the knowlegable then comes the math .I wouldn't like to say words like impossible for the fact that when a human mind reads such a code it immediately stops the processing of that particular information it would be better if we said that its not feasible ,everything is possible.Many known scientists have accepted this as possible and many are trying right now to provide a proper mathimatical description for this very idea .There even people at nasa working on it ,scientists in russia working on it the math is coming but off course it will take sometime because its cutting edge .
We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy
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Message 857995 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 6:41:32 UTC

There are plenty of things that are impossible.

Squaring the Circle is impossible

Temperatures below Absolute Zero are impossible

Very few people question those impossibilities however because they are relatively (pun intended) esoteric and people do not have an emotional “I wish it were so” attachment to them.

Also, I disagree with the assertion that the idea comes then the math is found to support it. Relativity and Quantum Theory both evolved with (or after) the mathematics. In the example of Relativity, much of the geometry of Einstein’s work is based on the earlier work of Bernhard Riemann

In most theoretical physics models, theory comes out of the math, not the other way around.


Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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Message 858060 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 13:03:42 UTC - in response to Message 857995.  
Last modified: 26 Jan 2009, 13:12:50 UTC


Also, I disagree with the assertion that the idea comes then the math is found to support it. Relativity and Quantum Theory both evolved with (or after) the mathematics. In the example of Relativity, much of the geometry of Einstein’s work is based on the earlier work of Bernhard Riemann

In most theoretical physics models, theory comes out of the math, not the other way around.


Also of Tullio Levi-Civita and Gregorio Ricci-Curbastro (think of the Ricci Tensor).
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Message 858070 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 13:22:18 UTC - in response to Message 857995.  
Last modified: 26 Jan 2009, 14:20:02 UTC

I agree with you kenzie that there things that are impossible and hell knows these could be one of them ,but there things that were said to be impossible and later proved otherwise because they were actually not possible at a particular time .i will leave for others to see but we shall continue suching and late the physistist do there part in getting us to those stars.
We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy
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Message 858131 - Posted: 26 Jan 2009, 17:12:27 UTC

You may well be right in all of this, kasule francis.

I am personally very cynical of people like Sereda who postulate something, provide only enough “proof” to impress the gullible and who are primarily interested in selling their books.

I do appreciate how desperately you want these things to be true.


Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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Message 873571 - Posted: 8 Mar 2009, 0:21:44 UTC - in response to Message 765528.  

IT HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLANED THAT AT ANY TIME YOU APPROCH L/S YOU ARE REFERCEING
TIME . TO A POINT THAT AT NO TIME CAN YOU ACHEAVE A TRUE LIGHT SPEED WITHOUT GOING IN TO A ALTERED TIME /SPACE = RELATIVE TO THE S/C2 / EVEN AT 99% OF C2
YOU MUST TAKE IN TO CONCIDERATION THAT M/E/C WILL REACH A ZERO ACCELATION.

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Message 873619 - Posted: 8 Mar 2009, 3:06:46 UTC - in response to Message 873571.  
Last modified: 8 Mar 2009, 3:17:46 UTC

IT HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLANED THAT AT ANY TIME YOU APPROCH L/S YOU ARE REFERCEING
TIME . TO A POINT THAT AT NO TIME CAN YOU ACHEAVE A TRUE LIGHT SPEED WITHOUT GOING IN TO A ALTERED TIME /SPACE = RELATIVE TO THE S/C2 / EVEN AT 99% OF C2
YOU MUST TAKE IN TO CONCIDERATION THAT M/E/C WILL REACH A ZERO ACCELATION.


Okay, as the closest that SAH has to a defender of Einstein physics, please redefine this as proper equations, with definitions, and I will be more than happy to pick it apart.

However, posting something in random capital letters with vague references to ALTERATED TIME/SPACE makes no sense at all to those of us wishing for more informative and mathematically precise definitions.

In other words, much more detail, rationally presented, without the CAPITAL LETTER PONTIFICATION, please.

:o)
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein
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