Importance of the forums to SETI@home funding.

Author	Message
Scary Capitalist Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0	Message 689737 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 13:48:29 UTC - in response to Message 689721. I am one of your statistical units. I have never donated cash to SETI. Since I started crunching though I have donated something that does have an absolute finacial value to me. I run my PC 99% of the year 24/7. This has meant I've had to replace my systems far far earlier than I would have had to normally. I've had to buy new power supplies when they died. Replace worn fans, drives, CPUs. Replace blown memory.... ect.. ect... My electricity is not free either. Personally I don't know how to quantify that. Maybe $300 per year?... Crunching for Boinc/Seti seems to give you some sense of accomplishment, there is no doubt about that otherwise you would not continue as you have. Looking after the software and hardware for just one computer running 24/7 requires a great deal of time and commitment to the project over the course of a year. You are to be commended on this. However......in addition to your commitment and expenses of $300.00 per year you cannot make one $25.00 donation per year to keep the project going? By your own figures you are spending .82 cents per day for Seti. You cannot afford an additional 6.8 cents per day to help insure that Seti will continue as a viable project? If there were no financial donations from us, in all probablility, Seti would not exist. Thank you, Geek@Play. This is what many people seem to forget. Perhaps it's wise to seek pro profit, pro capitalist funding. It may contradict what some of the obvious and notoriously leftie people at Berkeley believe in but it'd get the damn job done. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ID: 689737 ·

kittyman Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004	Message 689739 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 13:56:25 UTC - in response to Message 689737. I am one of your statistical units. I have never donated cash to SETI. Since I started crunching though I have donated something that does have an absolute finacial value to me. I run my PC 99% of the year 24/7. This has meant I've had to replace my systems far far earlier than I would have had to normally. I've had to buy new power supplies when they died. Replace worn fans, drives, CPUs. Replace blown memory.... ect.. ect... My electricity is not free either. Personally I don't know how to quantify that. Maybe $300 per year?... Crunching for Boinc/Seti seems to give you some sense of accomplishment, there is no doubt about that otherwise you would not continue as you have. Looking after the software and hardware for just one computer running 24/7 requires a great deal of time and commitment to the project over the course of a year. You are to be commended on this. However......in addition to your commitment and expenses of $300.00 per year you cannot make one $25.00 donation per year to keep the project going? By your own figures you are spending .82 cents per day for Seti. You cannot afford an additional 6.8 cents per day to help insure that Seti will continue as a viable project? If there were no financial donations from us, in all probablility, Seti would not exist. Thank you, Geek@Play. This is what many people seem to forget. Perhaps it's wise to seek pro profit, pro capitalist funding. It may contradict what some of the obvious and notoriously leftie people at Berkeley believe in but it'd get the damn job done. This statistical unit HAS sent cash to Seti. And payed $1000.00s in hardware and electric bills. What other funding are you alluding to? "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster ID: 689739 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 689740 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 14:06:29 UTC - in response to Message 689737. Last modified: 8 Dec 2007, 14:12:15 UTC Perhaps it's wise to seek pro profit, pro capitalist funding. It may contradict what some of the obvious and notoriously leftie people at Berkeley believe in but it'd get the damn job done. Last year Eric replied to a similar question, so I posted the following on various teamboards, I'll now repeat this here again: From here *Eric Korpela, Forum moderator, Project administrator,Project developer,Project scientist,* explains:** Whoa.... Been reading the thread. I wasn't aware that Seti was in such dire straits. I guess I assumed that most of Seti was backed by Universities and grants. First we need to make the distinction between SETI@home and SETI. SETI is not an organization, SETI is a field of study. There is no centralized organization running SETI efforts. You may have heard of the SETI Institute. They are not SETI. In fact, most of the people working there have never done any SETI related work. SETI@home is one SETI project run by the UC Berkeley SETI group. In terms of scientific staff, the Berkeley SETI group is me and Dan Werthimer. Matt Lebofsky and Jeff Cobb form the remainder of the staff. David Anderson is running the BOINC program and advises SETI@home. We have a systems adminsitrator that that is leaving on tuesday because (even if we had ample money) the pay rates for systems administrators at the University don't come close to matching private industry. And we aren't allowed to pay more than the University will let us. (Actually is the state that prevents us from giving raises. Even though we aren't funded through taxes, the University considers us to be part of the overall budget) That's it, really. 5 people. Less than 3 FTEs. SETI@home is entirely funded by donations. Most of these donations come from people who also run SETI@home. Universities don't really "back" anybody. Faculty at Univerisities and expected to bring in their own funding. If Dan and I don't bring in money, we don't get paid, but we still keep our jobs (without pay). Matt and Jeff get a pink slip. In exchange for a cut of that funding, the universities provide offices and keep the lights on. The NSF and NASA currently do not fund any SETI observing programs. At least none that I am aware of. Nor does any other government agency. We submit grant applications to the NSF Galactic Astronomy program, but we are unlikely to get funding. The sorry truth is that the $500,000 per year needed to keep SETI@home running is very large fraction the entire annual NSF Galactic Astronomy budget. The proposals are reviewed by other Astronomers, none of whom work on SETI. They naturally would prefer that the funding remain in the areas of astronomy in which they work. These are also predominantly astronomers who are Professors who get paid by the University for "teaching" in during the school year. (Even though the bulk of astronomy professors rarely teach). Therefore they frown upon paying "senior personnel" with the money they control. And because of earmarks that happened last year, the NSF Astronomy budget is getting squeezed. Previously SETI@home was funded by corporate donations and matching funds a state program run by the UC Office of the President. SETI@home does not currently have any corporate donors that provide financial donations. Therefore we are entirely dependent on donation which predominantly come from people who run SETI@home. Regarding to potential of finding wealthy sponsors. We, unfortunately, are forbidden from contacting most wealthy individuals directly unless we have a current relationship with them (i.e. they run SETI@home) or if they contact us. This policy is set by the U.C. Office of the President because the U.C. President prefers to direct such funding toward projects he wants funded. (i.e. a new business school, a new building for biological sciences, whatever else the president wants as his legacy). Funding SETI@home won't get the U.C. President a statue on Sproul plaza. Many wealthy donors to the University also want a lasting (concrete) legacy. Funding projects rather than buildings doesn't really cause letters to appear in granite cornerstones. I was under the assumption that it was managed by people skilled in the area of management. Dan and I have many, many years of experience in project management. The other half of my time, I'm an ultraviolet astronomer that manages the development of instruments for space missions. Being a skilled project manager doesn't help when you can't afford to pay people. You can't hire people until you have enough money to pay then. The University is pretty strict about that. Why donate to a project when the core business or mission isn't being looked after. On the other hand, there is a need to introduce something new to entice more funding which in turn will provide the needs to return to the original mission. Am I seeing this correctly so far in basic terms? I think you are seeing it pretty well. Unfortunately with a staff of 3 FTEs we end up chasing fires a lot of the time rather than doing new things, and without money we can't hire more staff. Server outages are bad press, so keeping them running is high on the priority list (and is certainly part of the core mission). We will have some new things to announce this year, but how many and when is a question I can't yet answer. -- Eric _______________________________________________________________ I mailed Dr. Anderson and asked him for a statement to post here as a comment to this, and he was so kind to answer me. Dr. David Anderson said: To Eric's excellent post, I would only add: 1) SETI@home's scientific progress is limited by money, and it has made slow progress in the last several years. To each BOINC participant: carefully examine the list of volunteer computing projects, and decide which of them is doing the most good. (This is a personal decision - it depends on your beliefs and values). By promoting the idea of "cross-project" credit totals, we have tried to eliminate the incentive to stick with one project indefinitely. And also, in response to some of the posts: 2) Buying items from the SETI@home store brings a small amount of money to SETI@home, but it is much more cost-effective to contribute directly. -- David ________________________________________________________ Thank you David for taking the time for this. It's very much appreciated. For your info, the questions about items bought in the Seti store was brought up on the BOINC Synergy forum, which I linked to him to see, so he addressed this also. "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 689740 ·

cRunchy Volunteer moderator Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3555 Credit: 1,920,030 RAC: 3	Message 689749 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 14:40:21 UTC - in response to Message 689668. Last modified: 8 Dec 2007, 15:40:21 UTC .....SNIP... However......in addition to your commitment and expenses of $300.00 per year you cannot make one $25.00 donation per year to keep the project going? By your own figures you are spending .82 cents per day for Seti. You cannot afford an additional 6.8 cents per day to help insure that Seti will continue as a viable project? SNIP... @Geek@Play, That's a very personalised expectation for me to donate. My post was about being fair. It was about the fact that people already donate resources that have a real world value for them. I was suggesting that 'cash' wasn't the only true ecconomic value of SETI members. My post wasn't an invitation for someone to target me as a fundraising oppourtunity or potentially represent me as a bad person for not donating cash. Should I feel guilty because as you ask: "You cannot afford an additional 6.8 cents per day to help insure that Seti will continue as a viable project?" If the project doesn't keep going will I be to blame for not donating $25 as you suggest? Is there an expectation that people who use the forums should donate more? Each year I give away my spare cash to people based charities. Will I look bad in certain peoples eyes here if I choose to give my spare cash this Christmas to one of my city's local projects that provides food and shelter for homeless people ('Crisis At Christmas') rather than SETI? Is SETI important and should we support it in the best way that each of can afford. Yes. Is it important enough for me to donate to during Christmas when there are so many people or social projects in need. Absolutely not. ...Snip... If there were no financial donations from us, in all probablility, Seti would not exist. Thank you, Geek@Play. This is what many people seem to forget. @Fuzzy I know it is important for you to raise funds but just because people don't donate it does not mean that we have 'forgotten' that SETI needs finances to run. === I do my best with the resources (cash or otherwise) I have. If I spend $300 or so on computing and electricity for SETI and $1000 on people charities each year I think SETI has gained an absolute bargain. I don't want to be made to feel guilty because I don't have any more to give SETI. I don't want to give simply because I was named and shamed in this forum for not giving that extra "6.8 cents per day"... :o( What a way to fundraise is this :o( ID: 689749 ·

kittyman Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004	Message 689750 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 14:47:54 UTC - in response to Message 689749. I don't want to give simply because I was named and shamed in this forum for not giving that extra "6.8 cents per day"... :o( What a way to fundraise is this :o( Crunchy..... You don't have to be so dang negative all the time. The question about having a few more cents a day to donate to Seti was a valid one. But you don't have to feel ashamed about not donating to Seti. Contributing your computer time and the cost of doing so is enough if that's what you wish to limit it to. And if you wish to donate to more 'human' causes that is all right too. But that does not change the fact that Seti does not have unlimited resources to draw on. So if you or anybody else has a few cents a day to contribute, please do so!!! If not, then thank you for partcipating in any way you wish. It's all good. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster ID: 689750 ·

cRunchy Volunteer moderator Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3555 Credit: 1,920,030 RAC: 3	Message 689752 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 15:08:20 UTC - in response to Message 689750. Last modified: 8 Dec 2007, 15:16:42 UTC I don't want to give simply because I was named and shamed in this forum for not giving that extra "6.8 cents per day"... :o( What a way to fundraise is this :o( Crunchy..... You don't have to be so dang negative all the time. SNIP... You know full well that I am not negative all the time. It was just a response to a direct question (or challenge) to me. Sorry if I write things in an emotive way at times. . ID: 689752 ·

kittyman Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004	Message 689754 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 15:19:30 UTC - in response to Message 689752. I don't want to give simply because I was named and shamed in this forum for not giving that extra "6.8 cents per day"... :o( What a way to fundraise is this :o( Crunchy..... You don't have to be so dang negative all the time. SNIP... You know full well that I am not negative all the time. It was just a response to a direct question (or challenge) to me. Sorry if I write things in an emotive way at times. . No problemo..... I have an emotional outburst now and again myself.....LOL. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster ID: 689754 ·

Sirius B Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7	Message 689767 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 16:38:31 UTC - in response to Message 689754. I have looked through the donations threads & found that payments can be made by credit card, paypal & for those crunchers in the US by check. I never use CNP (Card Not Present) or order through the net. What payment method is available besides these to overseas crunchers? I wish to donate by snail mail but a UK check is not valid - Would a Western Union transfer be valid? ID: 689767 ·

John Clark Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0	Message 689768 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 16:41:37 UTC Sirius As I understand it PayPal is also another route that can be used, assuming a PayPal account is available It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues ID: 689768 ·

Sirius B Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7	Message 689774 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 16:53:08 UTC - in response to Message 689768. Last modified: 8 Dec 2007, 16:53:26 UTC Sirius As I understand it PayPal is also another route that can be used, assuming a PayPal account is available Thanks, however I don't have one & would much prefer to forward donation by mail. I like keeping tight control over my bank account. Have read too many tales of problems with internet payments - Have a customer in my street who has had nothing but trouble with ebay & paypal. We have Western Union offices here in the UK, so if that was possible, it would be direct with no problems. ID: 689774 ·

Scary Capitalist Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0	Message 689776 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 16:59:02 UTC - in response to Message 689767. I have looked through the donations threads & found that payments can be made by credit card, paypal & for those crunchers in the US by check. I never use CNP (Card Not Present) or order through the net. What payment method is available besides these to overseas crunchers? I wish to donate by snail mail but a UK check is not valid - Would a Western Union transfer be valid? I'm sure that direct bank transfers would pose no problem. Talk to Fuzzy or Pappa. They seem to know all about these sorts of things. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ID: 689776 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 689788 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 17:30:36 UTC - in response to Message 689774. Sirius As I understand it PayPal is also another route that can be used, assuming a PayPal account is available Thanks, however I don't have one & would much prefer to forward donation by mail. I like keeping tight control over my bank account. Have read too many tales of problems with internet payments - Have a customer in my street who has had nothing but trouble with ebay & paypal. We have Western Union offices here in the UK, so if that was possible, it would be direct with no problems. Since I usually use PayPal for my international money transfers and I have used the direct address on the donation page, I'm not quite sure what is the easiest way or which one is the most cost effective. The very few times I have had to send money otherwise than PayPal, I have had my bank to issue an international check, which I then sent with a letter. Then it could take many days for it to clear before the person could get his/her money. The big issue, in my opinion, is the fees that's usually connected to having my bank to issuing a check, so I won't use that option myself, only when I have to. I don't know about your bank and it's fees, but I'd say that if this is the way you want to send money, you can look into this possibility. I think the postal services also offer ways for money transfers, again, I don't use these options very often. "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 689788 ·

Dr. C.E.T.I. Send message Joined: 29 Feb 00 Posts: 16019 Credit: 794,685 RAC: 0	Message 689793 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 17:51:04 UTC - in response to Message 689774. Sirius As I understand it PayPal is also another route that can be used, assuming a PayPal account is available Thanks, however I don't have one & would much prefer to forward donation by mail. I like keeping tight control over my bank account. Have read too many tales of problems with internet payments - Have a customer in my street who has had nothing but trouble with ebay & paypal. We have Western Union offices here in the UK, so if that was possible, it would be direct with no problems. see PM (from Mi) ;) BOINC Wiki . . . Science Status Page . . . ID: 689793 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 689801 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 18:35:54 UTC "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 689801 ·

Sirius B Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7	Message 689803 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 18:40:31 UTC - in response to Message 689801. Richard & Fuzzy, thanks. Have looked into Paypal but since they've vacated the UK, it seems that there are numerous problems cropping up with them. Also, from what I have seen, I'm not prepared to do business with them. Is an International Money Order acceptable to Seti? - I believe any fees chargeable will be at my end, & I have no problems with that. ID: 689803 ·

Rush Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3131 Credit: 302,569 RAC: 0	Message 689833 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 20:04:36 UTC - in response to Message 689803. Have looked into Paypal but since they've vacated the UK, it seems that there are numerous problems cropping up with them. Also, from what I have seen, I'm not prepared to do business with them. "Vacated the U.K?" Both my U.S. and U.K. Paypal accounts work fine. Never had any issues with either of them, and I use them regularly. Cordially, Rush elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com Remove the obvious... ID: 689833 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 689845 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 20:57:31 UTC - in response to Message 689833. Have looked into Paypal but since they've vacated the UK, it seems that there are numerous problems cropping up with them. Also, from what I have seen, I'm not prepared to do business with them. "Vacated the U.K?" Both my U.S. and U.K. Paypal accounts work fine. Never had any issues with either of them, and I use them regularly. Now now, dear, not so grumpy. A lot of people think their Paypal accounts are at risk because of all the phishing mails regarding Paypal. It never is. All people must do is never ever ever to reply to those emails they get about their Paypal accounts. Always only log into their Paypal account themselfes, never follow any links from any emails. And I suppose any international credit and debit cards can be used with them. Not all countries are supported with the bank accounts, I don't think it works in my country. "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 689845 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 689846 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 20:59:19 UTC - in response to Message 689803. Richard & Fuzzy, thanks. Have looked into Paypal but since they've vacated the UK, it seems that there are numerous problems cropping up with them. Also, from what I have seen, I'm not prepared to do business with them. Is an International Money Order acceptable to Seti? - I believe any fees chargeable will be at my end, & I have no problems with that. Sure it is. Just remember to put a note with it with the email address for your project account, so you can get your green star. :-) "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 689846 ·

Sirius B Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7	Message 689847 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 21:07:09 UTC - in response to Message 689846. Last modified: 8 Dec 2007, 21:08:00 UTC Sure it is. Just remember to put a note with it with the email address for your project account, so you can get your green star. :-) Magic! Thanks very much Fuzzy. Donation on it's way next week. @ Rush, from the info on the Paypal site, it is transferring it's UK operation to the Luxemberg Bank - With the problems I've been seeing on Paypal about freezing A/C's & emptying bank accounts - No thank you. PS: Who should the IMO be made payable to? - S@H or Berkeley? ID: 689847 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 689850 - Posted: 8 Dec 2007, 21:14:59 UTC - in response to Message 689847. Sure it is. Just remember to put a note with it with the email address for your project account, so you can get your green star. :-) Magic! Thanks very much Fuzzy. Donation on it's way next week. @ Rush, from the info on the Paypal site, it is transferring it's UK operation to the Luxemberg Bank - With the problems I've been seeing on Paypal about freezing A/C's & emptying bank accounts - No thank you. PS: Who should the IMO be made payable to? - S@H or Berkeley? S@H, definitely S@H. :-D And thanks for your donation. :-) "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 689850 ·

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