...Masri in May was committed to a psychiatric institution after he was arrested in the southern German city of Neu-Ulm on suspicion of arson. His attorney blamed his troubles on the CIA, saying the kidnapping and detention had left Masri a "psychological wreck."

Sure - and I can totally understand this. To be not only kidnapped, arrested & intimidated without reason, but also even tortured without reason sure makes people psychologically sick.

"But judge, judge, I'm INNOCENT!! Seriously, ya gotta believe me!!" That works well too.

"But judge, judge, I'm INNOCENT!! Seriously, ya gotta believe me!!" That works well too.

He definitely is, until proven otherwise.

But the USA ducked responsibility for some dubious "security reasons". If they have nothing to hide, why don't they come out. Isn't that what they always say about the surveillance programs? Only the guilty will be affected, the innocent have to fear no harm?

It's one of the best documented cases of illegal kidnapping by some terrorist CIA-thugs. They kidnapped him, they tortured him, they dumped him once they found out he's not what they thought he is (took them some while to find out).

But if this kidnapping will become official knowledge, someone probably will have to look for the culprits and sentence them for it, that would be very inconvenient for those who want to go on with kidnapping and torture, perhaps even up to the real responsible upper echelons, not just some scape goats like in Abu Ghraib.

Popcorn, i need popcorn.

I love those threads :-)))

I think people have been watching too much Jack Bauer and fallen for that post 9/11 propaganda.

Slippery slope indeed. It never ceases to amaze me the acts that people can manage to justify.

I think people have been watching too much Jack Bauer and fallen for that post 9/11 propaganda.

"But judge, judge, I'm INNOCENT!! Seriously, ya gotta believe me!!" That works well too.

He definitely is, until proven otherwise.

But the USA ducked responsibility for some dubious "security reasons". If they have nothing to hide, why don't they come out. Isn't that what they always say about the surveillance programs? Only the guilty will be affected, the innocent have to fear no harm?

It's one of the best documented cases of illegal kidnapping by some terrorist CIA-thugs. They kidnapped him, they tortured him, they dumped him once they found out he's not what they thought he is (took them some while to find out). But if this kidnapping will become official knowledge, someone probably will have to look for the culprits and sentence them for it, that would be very inconvenient for those who want to go on with kidnapping and torture, perhaps even up to the real responsible upper echelons, not just some scape goats like in Abu Ghraib.

I think people have been watching too much Jack Bauer and fallen for that post 9/11 propaganda.

True, they think that crap is reality.

Slippery slope indeed. It never ceases to amaze me the acts that people can manage to justify.

You don't have to agree with the justifications, but that's why everyone does it, whether you like it or not.

It's the epitome of gov't force. A lot of you guys seem to love that stuff. Well, as long as you agree with it.

Had a feeling that one would raise it's ugly head sometime. Yes I do agree with the use of government force, when it comes to taxation, because, of my own free will, I accept that such force may be used against myself. I accept the use of government force to imprison convicted criminals, because I accept that if I were to become one of their number I, too, shall be imprisoned.

I don't accept that torture may be used against me, hence I don't condone its use against others. By similar reasoning, if one accepts the use of torture against another, then one must accept that it may be used against oneself.

You and the USA as you like it, Rush, can be glad that I ever can become president there. First thing after calling back all military forces from each foreign country would be: close down all secret services and their affiliate agencies, including their official and secret facilities - and then punish all those who are or were guilty of torture and other violations of Human Rights. It would save a lot of the budget to not spend money anymore to such useless agencies like CIA, NSA et cetera ad nauseam.

Congress won't let you do what you want. Anymore than they would let me.

Popcorn, i need popcorn.

I love those threads :-)))

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

It doesn't matter what you accept or don't accept, as long as others convince the gov't to use force against you. Speaking of which, do you enjoy paying for the CIA and the WHISC? How about those secret CIA prisons, those are your tax dollars hard at work. Oh, and the Lear jets that they use for rendition aren't cheap either.

Whether you accept that gov't can use torture against others or not is of no concern--they'll do it to you (or anyone else) without any consideration of your position at all.

...
Are you sadistic, Mr. Interrogator? Have you enjoyed to have that much power over people? Has it aroused you?

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

If they are not able to show self-restraint, they are simply not chosen for the tasks!

...
Are you sadistic, Mr. Interrogator? Have you enjoyed to have that much power over people? Has it aroused you?

Thorin, I don't think you have any ideas how the people who are trained for those things are being selected.

The guys I have known from the Rangers here, who also are being taught things they don't speak about, or only mention at rare occasions, have been some of the most mentally balanced people I have met. If they are not able to show self-restraint, they are simply not chosen for the tasks!

But what about you, Thorin, are you aroused?

If they are not able to show self-restraint, they are simply not chosen for the tasks!

Thorin, I don't think you have any ideas how the people who are trained for those things are being selected.

...
Are you sadistic, Mr. Interrogator? Have you enjoyed to have that much power over people? Has it aroused you?

Thorin, I don't think you have any ideas how the people who are trained for those things are being selected.

The guys I have known from the Rangers here, who also are being taught things they don't speak about, or only mention at rare occasions, have been some of the most mentally balanced people I have met. If they are not able to show self-restraint, they are simply not chosen for the tasks!

But what about you, Thorin, are you aroused?

No. Definitely not by these virtual things here. And also not by any powers I had in Real Life. Quite the contrary: I am a person who considers responsible posts not as posts to use power but to serve those who I am responsible for. It's a matter of humbleness and respect, not of pride and disrespect.
As somebody wise had said: "With powers comes responsibility."

And when I see the violence of some cops or other officers, and especially of interrogators - connected to your sentence

If they are not able to show self-restraint, they are simply not chosen for the tasks!

... then I must say, most of these guys are chosen poorly.

Thorin, I don't think you have any ideas how the people who are trained for those things are being selected.

You are right. I have no idea how they are selected. But I don't think that any of the things I know about interrogations: the intimidating, decently violent atmosphere in the interrogation room, the threatenings, the disrespect and hate, and finally the violence itself, are things which people who are "mentally balanced" ever can accustom to.

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

Yes, yes, it doesn't matter to you, the gov't or anybody else that matters, but the case you appear to be making is not that torture is moral, just that it's practiced.

On the question of the use made of my tax dollars, I'm afraid I have no say whatsoever in the matter, though I'm hoping that situation will change soon.