There were millions of Classic SETI@home users, but there are only about half a million BOINC SETI@home users nowadays. Is BOINC still too difficult to use for beginners? At least, there is now the Simple View and the list of BOINC projects in the Join Project -window. What else could be done to make BOINC even more simple?

---

Manned mission to Mars in 2019 Petition <-- Sign this, please.

There were millions of Classic SETI@home users, but there are only about half a million BOINC SETI@home users nowadays. Is BOINC still too difficult to use for beginners? At least, there is now the Simple View and the list of BOINC projects in the Join Project -window. What else could be done to make BOINC even more simple?

I beleive it was stated somewhere (possibly by Matt Lebofsky), that of the millions of Classic users, many had only ever downloaded 1 WU and never returned it!

The new Project Selection window in the "Attach to project" wizard is a definite improvement, I beleive it is currently only available in 5.9.x versions of BOINC.

---

Sir Arthur C Clarke 1917-2008

From what I understand, the millions... and millions of the Classic fans were not active user accounts. As Keith said, most of them downloaded a single WU but never returned it. That begs the question - was Classic too difficult for the average user?

---

One factor that helped to create Classic’s large numbers is that when it was first released to the general public some of the major news media latched onto the story and exposed millions of people to the project including the URL. I clearly remember that is how I learned about it. In addition to those who never returned any work (as has been pointed out by others in this thread) many people crunched for a while but quickly lost interest when they didn’t immediately find ET.

BOINC itself is really pretty simple. Look at the front page:
Get started.
Read the rules.
Download and install.
Use this URL when prompted.

Things only get a little more complicated when one begins to use more advanced features such as running optimized apps, running it as a service, and/or micromanaging. Even running multiple projects isn’t too bad if you stick to the basics and let Manager do it’s thing.

Simpler is usually better, but I think the general level of computer literacy today is somewhat higher than just 8 years ago, especially with the huge growth of the internet. When I was in school PC’s didn’t exist, now they are a requirement in many places. So, I guess I don’t see the difficulty factor as much of a deterrent.

IMHO FWIW

From what I understand, the millions... and millions of the Classic fans were not active user accounts. As Keith said, most of them downloaded a single WU but never returned it. That begs the question - was Classic too difficult for the average user?

IIRC it was about 30% who never returned even 1 WU. The User results charts indicate there were about a million users who returned at least 100 results. But I'd guess that anyone who was an active participant for most of the Classic duration would be in the 200000 or so who returned 1000 or more.

                                                                 Joe

From what I understand, the millions... and millions of the Classic fans were not active user accounts. As Keith said, most of them downloaded a single WU but never returned it. That begs the question - was Classic too difficult for the average user?

IIRC it was about 30% who never returned even 1 WU. The User results charts indicate there were about a million users who returned at least 100 results. But I'd guess that anyone who was an active participant for most of the Classic duration would be in the 200000 or so who returned 1000 or more.

                                                                 Joe

Then it would seem to me that it was a loss of interest in the project, or perhaps people started questioning the seriousness of the project - as in many people started thinking it was a joke or a waste of time?

---

One factor that helped to create Classic’s large numbers is that when it was first released to the general public some of the major news media latched onto the story and exposed millions of people to the project including the URL. I clearly remember that is how I learned about it. In addition to those who never returned any work (as has been pointed out by others in this thread) many people crunched for a while but quickly lost interest when they didn’t immediately find ET.

BOINC itself is really pretty simple. Look at the front page:
Get started.
Read the rules.
Download and install.
Use this URL when prompted.

Things only get a little more complicated when one begins to use more advanced features such as running optimized apps, running it as a service, and/or micromanaging. Even running multiple projects isn’t too bad if you stick to the basics and let Manager do it’s thing.

Simpler is usually better, but I think the general level of computer literacy today is somewhat higher than just 8 years ago, especially with the huge growth of the internet. When I was in school PC’s didn’t exist, now they are a requirement in many places. So, I guess I don’t see the difficulty factor as much of a deterrent.

IMHO FWIW

When I was last in School, The Schools didn't have even a computer class, They barely had a computer club, And It met after school hours and this was in Los Angeles CA in the LACUSD at Banning High School.

---

The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

. . . When I was in school PC’s didn’t exist, now they are a requirement in many places. So, I guess I don’t see the difficulty factor as much of a deterrent.

IMHO FWIW

When I was last in School, The Schools didn't have even a computer class, They barely had a computer club, And It met after school hours and this was in Los Angeles CA in the LACUSD at Banning High School.

LOL. One benchmark was "Would computers ever be small enough to fit in one room."

Things only get a little more complicated when one begins to use more advanced features such as running optimized apps, running it as a service, and/or micromanaging. Even running multiple projects isn’t too bad if you stick to the basics and let Manager do it’s thing.

I think that most beginners see this large list of preference settings and start playing with them when they really don't understand what they are changing. If you leave the settings alone until you are more familiar with what is going on, there usually isn't a problem.

I am a computer professional and even I took some time before changing anything and even waited a couple of months before I started using Chicken's apps.

---

Calm Chaos Forum...Join Calm Chaos Now

Then it would seem to me that it was a loss of interest in the project, or perhaps people started questioning the seriousness of the project - as in many people started thinking it was a joke or a waste of time?[/quote]

I had run the classis and quit when all the Boinc talk started. I wanted to run seti and was put off that they wanted me to use my machines for other projects and for some reason I didn't think I would have much choice...I see now I was wrong. But I had quit for a few years.

---

Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

I DL'd boinc in October last year after an email requesting old seti users to come back, but couldn't get my preferences to stick on cpu usage (boinc was working 100% of the time, all of the time) and, as I know little about how pc's actually work, didn't bother trying to work it all out - I tried spent a few hours then gave up.

I think that most beginners see this large list of preference settings and start playing with them when they really don't understand what they are changing. If you leave the settings alone until you are more familiar with what is going on, there usually isn't a problem.

I agree the main area for confusions is the settings, there is no explanation for what they should be set at. I don't know how much space I should allow and there are no guidelines as to how it effects the running of my pc. 'Swap space' isn't a term I'd come across before and even when I looked it up, I still wasnt' sure what a sensible setting was for my pc.

When I rejoined a few weeks ago it was in the middle of another server related crisis and I was unsure if it was my pc or the server that was the problem. After hours of reading thru faq's and the wiki boinc and some much-needed help from people on here, I seem to have it up and running and it's all fine. It's just getting the initial set up sorted out that's the hard part. The old seti just did it's thing and you didn't have to worry. Now it seems you need to be a computer programmer to understand everything, or at least be willing to spend some time on it. Glad to be back though anyway =)

I agree the main area for confusions is the settings, there is no explanation for what they should be set at. I don't know how much space I should allow and there are no guidelines as to how it effects the running of my pc. 'Swap space' isn't a term I'd come across before and even when I looked it up, I still wasnt' sure what a sensible setting was for my pc.

First of all, welcome back.

Second, as a new user, why would one want to go changing preferences if you don't even know how the defaults work? Shouldn't you (generally speaking, not you specifically) simply leave the defaults alone unless you notice something isn't working right - and even then ask questions first?

I agree that a little more documentation would be a good thing, especially from those that have a deep understanding of what the software is doing, but it needs to be "readable" by the average Joe (not you, Joe Segur ;).

---

The complaints about BOINC generally seem to fall into three basic camps.

1. I don't like BOINC - it's too complicated, the old one JUST WORKED!
2. I don't like BOINC - the old screensaver was really cool, bring it back NOW!
3. I don't like BOINC - it makes my cpu go to 100%, I refuse to accept that the old one DID THE SAME!

I can't think of any good, compelling reason to go backwards to the classic SETI days.

Computing has got more complicated since classic SETI was started, computers themselves, the operating systems, the applications - in fact everything. But this is largely balanced out by users who are now much more tech savvy than a decade ago. Like any other well maintained software project, BOINC will continue to evolve and become better. Like most other software that won't mean less complicated.

As far as numbers of active project cpus go, it's important to remember that there's a great deal more choice today than when SETI classic ruled the roost. Other projects offer more in the way of instant gratification because they can offer concrete information about the progess being made. Plus some of these other projects have very fine and important goals. The best SETI can reasonably offer is 'ain't found that signal yet', which is ok because we understand that's how it is.

It would be interesting to know how many cpus are contributing to distributed computing overall today. (I include non-BOINC projects such as Folding@Home in that.) At least, a far more interesting number than carping about how many people are not crunching classic anymore.

First of all, welcome back.

Second, as a new user, why would one want to go changing preferences if you don't even know how the defaults work? Shouldn't you (generally speaking, not you specifically) simply leave the defaults alone unless you notice something isn't working right - and even then ask questions first?

I agree that a little more documentation would be a good thing, especially from those that have a deep understanding of what the software is doing, but it needs to be "readable" by the average Joe (not you, Joe Segur ;).

Hi, Thanks for the welcome. I knew this question would arise, 'if it's not broke, why fix it'. And that's good advice. However, due to my lack of understanding of how computers work (and how boinc affects it), I didn't think running boinc using 100% of the power, 100% of the time would be a good thing. It's asking me about multiprocessors, swap space, memory usage...how do I know the default settings arent' going to max everything out, and grind everything else to a hault unless somewhere it explains what it is doing?

I guess I really needed some information about what work my pc could comfortably do (it's not exactly super-quick at the best of times) without upsetting anything else I need my pc for, or without wearing it out/overheating it etc.

Fortunately people on here are very helpful! Just my 2cents anyway =)

I didn't hink running boinc using 100% of the power, 100% of the time would be a good thing. It's asking me about multiprocessors, swap space, memory usage...how do I know the default settings arent' going to max everything out, and grind everything else to a hault unless somewhere it explains what it is doing?

I guess I really needed some information about what work my pc could comfortably do (it's not exactly super-quick at the best of times) without upsetting anything else I need my pc for, or without wearing it out/overheating it etc.

Fortunately people on here are very helpful! Just my 2cents anyway =)

OK, I am going to try being helpful too. Seeing all the knowledge available around the clock on these fora, ask questions and you'll get replies ;)

1)the 100% usage: The beauty of boinc that it adapts to your needs. if you do a lot on your pc and use 70% of the power, boinc will only use the remaining 30% and not impede on anything you are doing. if your pc is idle however, boinc will use the maximum amount of power you allow it to use. in this case 100%. this is the standard setting and won't affect you at all. the only reason to go below 100% is if you should be concerned about the heat in your room, or your energy bill if you work with a cpu that powers down while not in use.

2)multiprocessors: some people own processors (like intel's core duo) that actually comprise 2, 4 or 8 cores. again you can choose: how many of those cores would you like seti to use? 1,2,4,8 etc. it won't impede you either, but it can increase your work throughput 2,4 or 8 fold :))

3)memory usage: how much of your ram would you like seti to use as an upper ceiling?

4) swap space: as far as I know the size of the harddisk seti can use temporarily to swap files to. (am not too sure about that one either.)

In short: Seti can't bring your pc to a halt, it cuts down on the pc usage whenever you need more power.

---

... I didn't think running boinc using 100% of the power, 100% of the time would be a good thing. ...

There is no problem with that at all. Computers are designed to run at 100% 24/7, and no your CPU won't wear out (there's no mechanical moving parts!).

The issue for 100% utilisation is for laptops where their cooling fans can be quite noisy.

And if your computer cannot reliably run at 100% utilisation, then you have cooling problems due to dirt and dust buildup. Or, very unlikely, but perhaps you have a poorly designed PC that should be returned as unusable (regardless, it is faulty!).


HTH, see the Boinc Help for more details.

Happy crunchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The complaints about BOINC generally seem to fall into three basic camps.

1. I don't like BOINC - it's too complicated, the old one JUST WORKED!
2. I don't like BOINC - the old screensaver was really cool, bring it back NOW!
3. I don't like BOINC - it makes my cpu go to 100%, I refuse to accept that the old one DID THE SAME!
<snip>
But this is largely balanced out by users who are now much more tech savvy than a decade ago.

With regard to the 100% utilisation, it's probably noticed more now, because whereas a p2/p3 going to 100% would a) not actually produce much more heat and b) the CPU fan was probably going full throttle all the time, a modern CPU/HSF will scale back when idle (both cpu and fan). So going to 100% load produces an -audible- difference, then people being more tech savvy, notice the CPU is now at 100%, without necessarily realised it's niced (or whatever the equivalent is on Windows).

I still think the old SETI 'worked' better for 'simple' needs/users, but as soon as you need to cache work or whatever, it's WAY worse than BOINC. Plus, boinc keeps improving with the wizards, simple view etc. It's still got problems (obeying preferences is my latest bugbear - you can do it by manual editing at least) but these usually get fixed sooner or later. All in all, I love boinc - much nicer to have a platform for multiple projects than F@H, S@H etc all producing separate apps (well f@h still do that, hopefully they'll see the light).

---

Crunching SETI@Home as a member of the Whirlpool BOINC Teams

The complaints about BOINC generally seem to fall into three basic camps.

1. I don't like BOINC - it's too complicated, the old one JUST WORKED!
2. I don't like BOINC - the old screensaver was really cool, bring it back NOW!
3. I don't like BOINC - it makes my cpu go to 100%, I refuse to accept that the old one DID THE SAME!
<snip>
But this is largely balanced out by users who are now much more tech savvy than a decade ago.

With regard to the 100% utilization, it's probably noticed more now, because whereas a p2/p3 going to 100% would a) not actually produce much more heat and b) the CPU fan was probably going full throttle all the time, a modern CPU/HSF will scale back when idle (both cpu and fan). So going to 100% load produces an -audible- difference, then people being more tech savvy, notice the CPU is now at 100%, without necessarily realized it's niced (or whatever the equivalent is on Windows).

I still think the old SETI 'worked' better for 'simple' needs/users, but as soon as you need to cache work or whatever, it's WAY worse than BOINC. Plus, boinc keeps improving with the wizards, simple view etc. It's still got problems (obeying preferences is my latest bugbear - you can do it by manual editing at least) but these usually get fixed sooner or later. All in all, I love boinc - much nicer to have a platform for multiple projects than F@H, S@H etc all producing separate apps (well f@h still do that, hopefully they'll see the light).

Oh somebody did, But then F@H on Boinc got killed or put on hold for some reason. :|

---

The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

With regard to the 100% utilisation, it's probably noticed more now, because whereas a p2/p3 going to 100% would a) not actually produce much more heat and b) the CPU fan was probably going full throttle all the time, a modern CPU/HSF will scale back when idle (both cpu and fan). So going to 100% load produces an -audible- difference, then people being more tech savvy, notice the CPU is now at 100%, without necessarily realised it's niced (or whatever the equivalent is on Windows).

Agreed. But just because it's running at 100% and noticeable, doesn't mean it's a problem. If the user isn't tech savvy, shouldn't they ask a professional (whether it be a friend or a paid serviceman)? I can understand getting concerned about it, but that's what consulting pros is for.

I still think the old SETI 'worked' better for 'simple' needs/users <snip>

I don't think BOINC will ever be as simple as SETI Classic for the main fact that SETI Classic was for the most part a single function piece of software (i.e. enter email address [which becomes account number], crunch).

BOINC, by nature, offers so much more flex-ability, and therefore requires a little more thought and offers so many more options to make it as user-configurable as possible (and options offer more complexity). But overall, BOINC provides much more than Classic ever did (as you noted) and then some. With each release, BOINC is becoming closer to user friendly every time.

Now if only we can get them to use radio buttons or check boxes instead of buttons whose words change when you click on them, which can be very confusing to understand (No New Tasks, I'm looking at you!).

---