I have heard that the temperature of Mars is also increasing. Thats gotta be due to the sun. Same sun as we have. Dunno....

That is interesting information. Got a source for that?

Mars Emerging from Ice Age, Data Suggest

Thanks for bailing me out on that one Bill. My only source was " I think I read it somewhere".....

Another oddity is the sharp disagreement between climate models predictions and temperatures over the Antarctic continent. Temperatures are much colder than predicted in the interior of the Antarctic. See Antarctic temperatures disagree with climate model predictions from the Ohio State University.

I have heard that the temperature of Mars is also increasing. Thats gotta be due to the sun. Same sun as we have. Dunno....

That is interesting information. Got a source for that?

Mars Emerging from Ice Age, Data Suggest

Thanks for bailing me out on that one Bill. My only source was " I think I read it somewhere".....

Another oddity is the sharp disagreement between climate models predictions and temperatures over the Antarctic continent. Temperatures are much colder than predicted in the interior of the Antarctic. See Antarctic temperatures disagree with climate model predictions from the Ohio State University.

So Bill, you believe in all this:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

For which there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHAT-SO-EVER....

yet you don't believe in human caused global warming for which there is a huge amount of evidence for.

Right. Nuff said.

National Geographic May 1998. humans add 7 billion metric tons of CO 2 to the earth a year. The atmosphere holds 750 billion metric tons. Oceans hold 35 Trillion tons. Humm Also the US Navy contributes 3 Kazillion mega tons of noxious gases to the atmosphere while the US Marine Corps contribute none ! (I just made up that last part for Bill)

So Bill, you believe in all this:

(the Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints)

For which there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHAT-SO-EVER....
yet you don't believe in human caused global warming for which there is a huge amount of evidence for.
Right. Nuff said.

So Bill, you believe in all this:

(the Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints)

For which there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHAT-SO-EVER....
yet you don't believe in human caused global warming for which there is a huge amount of evidence for.
Right. Nuff said.

Madam, that is certainly not "Nuff said."
First, the inclusion the Articles of Faith of my religion in this discussion is, as you well know, a logical fallacy and intended strictly to be a means of literary doublespeak. Introducing such a non sequitur into a discussion of the climate is shameful and should be beneath you.

Second, I have said many times that I do not believe that the evidence presented and available to me gives proof that humans have caused any more than an insignificant percentage of the change in climate shown by the raw data available. What I have seen indicates that the climate changes we are seeing fall well within limits of previous climate changes recorded in archeological evidence.

I think enough evidence has been shown to you to demonstrate that there is a part played by humans in climate change and that the current rate of climate change doesn not fall within normal parameters.

...
Not at all, I think it reflects on your ability to assess evidence and think logically. It is entirely relevant.

...

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

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Not at all, I think it reflects on your ability to assess evidence and think logically. It is entirely relevant.

...

Are you saying that people who are religious and have a faith in something, whatever it is, don't have the ability to think logically?

Around our neighbourhood we have a particularly active Jehovas Witnesses group. These people have to be admired for their total dedication to what they genuinely believe in. Yes they think logically, and of course they do. But I have to say, that such a fervent adherence to their chosen way of life, must surely, colour their opinion upon certain issues?

As you've gathered, I'm advocating a middle road opinion here.

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

All EU nations must back proposals to cut harmful emissions by 30% by 2020 or risk jeopardising the global effort to curb climate change, warn ministers.

The call for unity among the 27-nation bloc was made by the UK Environment Secretary, David Miliband, and his Spanish and Slovenian counterparts.

Failure to act would threaten efforts to get nations such as the US and China to agree to cap emissions, they said.

Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said: "I urge the rest of the developed world to follow our lead, match our reductions and accelerate progress towards an international agreement on the global emission reductions."

Global Warming

Water heats gradually

and boils suddenly.

...
Not at all, I think it reflects on your ability to assess evidence and think logically. It is entirely relevant.

...

Are you saying that people who are religious and have a faith in something, whatever it is, don't have the ability to think logically?

Around our neighbourhood we have a particularly active Jehovas Witnesses group. These people have to be admired for their total dedication to what they genuinely believe in. Yes they think logically, and of course they do. But I have to say, that such a fervent adherence to their chosen way of life, must surely, colour their opinion upon certain issues?

As you've gathered, I'm advocating a middle road opinion here.

Of course a certain religious fervent adherence can colour people's opinions on certain issues, just as certain politically fervent adherences can colour people's opinions as well.

But using a person's religious religious views to claim that this person is unable to think logically made me react. I am a religious person, my faith is very strong, but I think my ability to think logically is intact.

National Geographic May 1998. humans add 7 billion metric tons of CO 2 to the earth a year. The atmosphere holds 750 billion metric tons. Oceans hold 35 Trillion tons. Humm Also the US Navy contributes 3 Kazillion mega tons of noxious gases to the atmosphere while the US Marine Corps contribute none ! (I just made up that last part for Bill)

Just a small point Lester;

"humans add 7 billion metric tons of CO2 to the earth a year"

No they don't. Nobody is adding anything to the Earth. No extra CO2 is being added, no water is being added.

It's all simply being moved around; by nature, or by humans. From coal to atmosphere, from ice to salty water...

The Earth is fine. Whether the Sun's energy shines on its clouds, its surface or its seas - it gets it all. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust - the Earth ain't worrying!

But we sure should.

You cannot believe both in science and evolution and the Bible. They are mutually exclusive.

You cannot believe both in science and evolution and the Bible. They are mutually exclusive.

You cannot believe both in science and evolution and the Bible. They are mutually exclusive.

This is untrue. While there is a philosophical question to be answered here, it all returns to epistemology.

Frankly, the reason I don't really discuss this stuff with Bill is that he seems to understand that there is a difference between "faith" and "reason." While I don't want to get into a discussion that belongs in the Religion thread, there is no problem with faith, per se. Most simply, faith is just an utterly unfounded belief that has no logical proof or experimental material evidence behind it.

Believe in Jeebus, The Mohammadinator, Crystal Skulls, Nessie, Niburu, Telekinesis, whatever you wish--they're all based on faith, nothing more. As long as one realizes that, there's no real problem

However, often those that profess to have faith, really don't. They seek actual physical evidence or proof--which is where the dichotomy comes in. Either you have faith, or you don't. If you actually have faith, you don't need proof, and your religious beliefs are pure. If you don't have faith, and you need actual proof, then you are denying your very beliefs. At some level you realize that the universe works a bit differently than you'd like, and you seek the proof to justify your belief.

But that ain't what (insert oh most blessed holy deity of choice here) commanded you to do. It told you to have faith, and by cracky you better do it, the (oh most blessed holy deity of choice) ordered you to.

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

You cannot believe both in science and evolution and the Bible. They are mutually exclusive.

You cannot believe both in science and evolution and the Bible. They are mutually exclusive.

This is untrue. While there is a philosophical question to be answered here, it all returns to epistemology.

Frankly, the reason I don't really discuss this stuff with Bill is that he seems to understand that there is a difference between "faith" and "reason." While I don't want to get into a discussion that belongs in the Religion thread, there is no problem with faith, per se. Most simply, faith is just an utterly unfounded belief that has no logical proof or experimental material evidence behind it.

Believe in Jeebus, The Mohammadinator, Crystal Skulls, Nessie, Niburu, Telekinesis, whatever you wish--they're all based on faith, nothing more. As long as one realizes that, there's no real problem

However, often those that profess to have faith, really don't. They seek actual physical evidence or proof--which is where the dichotomy comes in. Either you have faith, or you don't. If you actually have faith, you don't need proof, and your religious beliefs are pure. If you don't have faith, and you need actual proof, then you are denying your very beliefs. At some level you realize that the universe works a bit differently than you'd like, and you seek the proof to justify your belief.

But that ain't what (insert oh most blessed holy deity of choice here) commanded you to do. It told you to have faith, and by cracky you better do it, the (oh most blessed holy deity of choice) ordered you to.