What I don't get is why Atheists have to produce evidence that God doesn't exist. Surely...seeing as religious folks are the ones that invented the idea, they should be the ones doing the proving.
...so go on then. Convince me.

Straight up I am a non believer! BUT from the multitudes of people that have tried to convince me the bottom line is "you gotta believe". There is no "proof" one way or the other that can convince anyone that doesn't wish to be convinced. There is no God that is going to come down and say "believe or die", and then enforce it. Likewise there is no Devil coming up and saying whatever and then enforcing that. Either you "believe" in God or you don't.

Which is exactly why the phrase is "religious faith". Faith is widely defined as a belief that is not based on proof. In my religion, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we have 13 Articles of Faith that describe what our core beliefs are:
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

That is the LDS faith, my faith, in a nutshell. And I find it endlessly fascinating to explore our similarities and differencies with other religious faiths.

Number 10, why would it be on the American continent. I would have thought Israel would be the holy place.
Thanks for the post, very interesting.

Atomic...I think they don't like me on this site

there is no Devil coming up and saying whatever and then enforcing that.

Sure there is... You just don't see it happening... ;)

Then can you explain, leaving out of course any thing that could be explained by natural or Scientific causes, what the Devil has done?

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5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

This is the one I have a problem with...

True, God calls who He wills, but God doesn't need any church to help Him... ;)

Here comes the interesting part, one "man of God" saying that another "man of God" believes the wrong thing! Hey aren't the Muslim's doing that?
Go for it Jeffrey, beat up on his Church's beliefs. Tell him how his Church is wrong and YOUR Church is the ONLY way!

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What I don't get is why Atheists have to produce evidence that God doesn't exist. Surely...seeing as religious folks are the ones that invented the idea, they should be the ones doing the proving.
...so go on then. Convince me.

Straight up I am a non believer! BUT from the multitudes of people that have tried to convince me the bottom line is "you gotta believe". There is no "proof" one way or the other that can convince anyone that doesn't wish to be convinced. There is no God that is going to come down and say "believe or die", and then enforce it. Likewise there is no Devil coming up and saying whatever and then enforcing that. Either you "believe" in God or you don't.

Which is exactly why the phrase is "religious faith". Faith is widely defined as a belief that is not based on proof. In my religion, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we have 13 Articles of Faith that describe what our core beliefs are:
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

That is the LDS faith, my faith, in a nutshell. And I find it endlessly fascinating to explore our similarities and differencies with other religious faiths.

Wow..you sure to do believe a lot of stuff.

Why?

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Reality Internet Personality

Wow..you sure to do believe a lot of stuff.

Why?

Because it gives my family and I a far better life than otherwise would be the case.
I have a relationship with God that that I believe gives me tangible benefits. Among those benefits are the health benefits related to prayer I have mentioned previously and a much increased ability to retain equanimity under adverse conditions.
I associate with people who are committed to the welfare of my family and vice versa. Indeed, the family is considered sacred in the LDS community.
Should I lose my job or become disabled, I am assured that my family will never lack for the necessities.
My daughter has a far better chance of living within a traditional family than otherwise. The divorce rate among those who have married with the LSD church is between 6% and 13%, depending on your source, but in any case far lower than that of the general population. This holds true for converts or those born into the LDS church.
I could go on, but that is a good start.

Wow..you sure to do believe a lot of stuff.

Why?

Because it gives my family and I a far better life than otherwise would be the case.
I have a relationship with God that that I believe gives me tangible benefits. Among those benefits are the health benefits related to prayer I have mentioned previously and a much increased ability to retain equanimity under adverse conditions.
I associate with people who are committed to the welfare of my family and vice versa. Indeed, the family is considered sacred in the LDS community.
Should I lose my job or become disabled, I am assured that my family will never lack for the necessities.
My daughter has a far better chance of living within a traditional family than otherwise. The divorce rate among those who have married with the LSD church is between 6% and 13%, depending on your source, but in any case far lower than that of the general population. This holds true for converts or those born into the LDS church.
I could go on, but that is a good start.

I used to work in an LDS Church Family History Library, been a while now, and found EVERYONE to be very nice people! As I said I am not a Religious person, so when the Center decided to go with only LDS people as Librarians I was removed. Never any ill will or feelings towards me that were bad in any way. No ill feelings on my part either, just sorry I lost the key and the ability to do more research. The Library is open fewer hours now, but Security is tightened ALOT!.

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Does anybody here think they can change the mind of someone who thinks the opposite?

If you believe in God, and have all your reasons worked out, what makes you think that someone who doesn't believe in God hasn't worked out their reasons to believe their way? Or vice versa? The best you can do is try to explain how you believe, but don't expect to convince anyone. This isn't science, it's religion. Proof is impossible, the best you can do is explain the basis for your belief. Unlike a science experiment that can give consistent results each time anyone does it, your reasons will often yeild very different results (or conclusions) for others.

Gee, it sounds like I'm scolding you people, but I am really just trying to explain what I have learned over time.

Wow..you sure to do believe a lot of stuff.

Why?

Because it gives my family and I a far better life than otherwise would be the case.
I have a relationship with God that that I believe gives me tangible benefits. Among those benefits are the health benefits related to prayer I have mentioned previously and a much increased ability to retain equanimity under adverse conditions.
I associate with people who are committed to the welfare of my family and vice versa. Indeed, the family is considered sacred in the LDS community.
Should I lose my job or become disabled, I am assured that my family will never lack for the necessities.
My daughter has a far better chance of living within a traditional family than otherwise. The divorce rate among those who have married with the LSD church is between 6% and 13%, depending on your source, but in any case far lower than that of the general population. This holds true for converts or those born into the LDS church.
I could go on, but that is a good start.

I used to work in an LDS Church Family History Library, been a while now, and found EVERYONE to be very nice people! As I said I am not a Religious person, so when the Center decided to go with only LDS people as Librarians I was removed. Never any ill will or feelings towards me that were bad in any way. No ill feelings on my part either, just sorry I lost the key and the ability to do more research. The Library is open fewer hours now, but Security is tightened ALOT!.

That's sad. But can't you research further being a customer of the Center?
In the church at my old home, there were much more non-LDS members than LDS members researching in the Family History Center - AFAIK twice as many as members have been there at all. Between genealogists here, the PAF - software of the LDS Church is told to be the most-used one, and the other churches are mostly kind when helping out with data.
I must say, that I experienced a kind-of-openness in this church, like: I appreciate your believe though I know that your's is the wrong one - but you have the same right to believe yours as I do have the right to belief mine.
So they also help others without preaching, and just this help makes people nosy enough to ask who they are and what they believe in.
Sure, like some others, the LDS church is doing missions also. But that doesn't mean they want to convince people. Okay, if some-one convince themselves because of the informations and talks to join the church later, it is a nice side effect; but mainly they just go out to spread the gospel, to inform the people: here are we, our faith is this, please listen to what we believe to be God's plan.
I myself went with the missionaries more than a dozen years ago (just 7 or 8 months after my own baptism); I lived with them, went door to door with them, talked to people on the streets with them, taught, prayed, sang with them - for about two (very short) months during a short-time mission. And for each flat we were invited in to have wonderful talks, about hundred refused before to even let us introduce who we were. Pity for them, but they had the same right to not invite us - the Lord gave us the right of free decision.
For me, this time was an experience I never want to miss.
The most wonderful thing was, three months later, one of the persons I had taught about the gospel during this short-time mission wished to be baptized by me. That was so marvellous in the moment of baptizing this man, I really felt to be a tool in the hand of God. Pure energy ran through me, non-describable.

Unfortunately, my life ran in a way which made me inactive from time to time (like kind of a sinus curve), so I never have been in a temple except when it was open to everybody... But I'm working on it.

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Account frozen...

Does anybody here think they can change the mind of someone who thinks the opposite?

If you believe in God, and have all your reasons worked out, what makes you think that someone who doesn't believe in God hasn't worked out their reasons to believe their way? Or vice versa? The best you can do is try to explain how you believe, but don't expect to convince anyone. This isn't science, it's religion. Proof is impossible, the best you can do is explain the basis for your belief. Unlike a science experiment that can give consistent results each time anyone does it, your reasons will often yeild very different results (or conclusions) for others.

Gee, it sounds like I'm scolding you people, but I am really just trying to explain what I have learned over time.

As I mentioned some postings before, no-one can change the mind of any-one else. Convincing is a process everybody must go through of his or her own, using the informations he or she can get. I can't convince you, neither you can convince me. I might be able to convince myself of your point if I felt that this is more right than mine.

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Account frozen...

Go for it Jeffrey, beat up on his Church's beliefs. Tell him how his Church is wrong and YOUR Church is the ONLY way!

I did no such thing...

Scripturally the LDS church is wrong, not in there core beliefs, but in the power and authority that they think they have... The 'Book of Mormon' is okay (it's just another testament to Jesus Christ), but the 'Doctrines and Covenants' is not in line with all the other scriptures and falls right into the same category as 'Islamic Law'... I could tell you the who what where when and how the LDS church went off course, but that isn't what I'm about...

It was kinda odd... The Missionaries asked me to pray to God and ask Him if the church was true... I did, and I got a response (in the form of knowledge) but it wasn't the one they were expecting... I never did find the heart to tell them what I now know...

ANY church is a good start, but if you want to find God you had better get into His books... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

ANY church is a good start, but if you want to find God you had better get into His books... ;)

I can do nothing but agree with that. Before I decided which religion I would join in, I read everything, from Bagavatgita to Q'ran, Bible, Buddhist, Hinduistic, Asian, and other sacred, holy and unholy, and philosophic texts as well as several secondary literature to each of these texts. This, and my previous ideology (which showed up to be false) made myself wonder where I could really find the truth.

Finally, I found it in the Bible, after I read it again, presuming there could be something about that Jesus...

And, even before there was a missionary to ask me to try out verse 5 of the first chapter of the Epistle of St. James, I did it for myself. Strangely, days after my very first prayer, I found the Bible to be true - and later, when I read the book of Mormon, I tried the same: I prayed and got the feeling that for me this book also is true.

May be it's not true for you, I don't know it. And may be you found another way to believe in God (if you believe).

But what I do know is that for me, for my very person, this belief, the LDS church, is the only true one, that - as far as I'm concerned - I found the truth.

But - as Pilate asked (St John, 18:38): "What is truth?"

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Account frozen...

May be it's not true for you, I don't know it. And may be you found another way to believe in God (if you believe).

Looks like somebody hasn't read through my post history...


I believe the Torah (Old Testament) to be the inspired word of God, but now obsolete...

I believe the Gospels (New Testament) to be the inspired word of God, but tampered with...

I believe the Book of Mormon was written and translated through divine intervention...

I believe the Qur'an to be a direct revelation from God Himself...


Same God, same message, different messengers... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

May be it's not true for you, I don't know it. And may be you found another way to believe in God (if you believe).

Looks like somebody hasn't read through my post history...
I believe the Torah (Old Testament) to be the inspired word of God, but now obsolete...
I believe the Gospels (New Testament) to be the inspired word of God, but tampered with...
I believe the Book of Mormon was written and translated through divine intervention...
I believe the Qur'an to be a direct revelation from God Himself...
Same God, same message, different messengers...

You must worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience, of course.

You must worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience, of course.

NO... I worship God according to what He dictates, not a church that only chooses to follows a portion of what God has revealed to mankind... As a Mormon you should know that ALL these books come from the same God, ESPECIALLY when this info comes from the part of Gods doctrine that you claim to follow...

"God sent a messenger to every nation and to every people"... Have you read your book lately? Ever? Sometimes I wonder... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

"You can either believe in science and evolution or the Bible. But not both. They are mutually exclusive" Paraphrased from a letter to National Geographic. What do u think ?

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Wow..you sure to do believe a lot of stuff.

Why?

Because it gives my family and I a far better life than otherwise would be the case.
I have a relationship with God that that I believe gives me tangible benefits. Among those benefits are the health benefits related to prayer I have mentioned previously and a much increased ability to retain equanimity under adverse conditions.
I associate with people who are committed to the welfare of my family and vice versa. Indeed, the family is considered sacred in the LDS community.
Should I lose my job or become disabled, I am assured that my family will never lack for the necessities.
My daughter has a far better chance of living within a traditional family than otherwise. The divorce rate among those who have married with the LSD church is between 6% and 13%, depending on your source, but in any case far lower than that of the general population. This holds true for converts or those born into the LDS church.
I could go on, but that is a good start.

I used to work in an LDS Church Family History Library, been a while now, and found EVERYONE to be very nice people! As I said I am not a Religious person, so when the Center decided to go with only LDS people as Librarians I was removed. Never any ill will or feelings towards me that were bad in any way. No ill feelings on my part either, just sorry I lost the key and the ability to do more research. The Library is open fewer hours now, but Security is tightened ALOT!.

That's sad. But can't you research further being a customer of the Center?
In the church at my old home, there were much more non-LDS members than LDS members researching in the Family History Center - AFAIK twice as many as members have been there at all. Between genealogists here, the PAF - software of the LDS Church is told to be the most-used one, and the other churches are mostly kind when helping out with data.

Yes I can, but the problem as I alluded to is timing. I work on the days that they are now open. When I was working there I was able to open the Library on days the LDS Members could not. I could not only do my own research, which thanks to them is quite extensive, but I was able to help others that came in. Now I am unable to do my research there and must do it elsewhere. Fortunately the internet is a wonderful place and just full of more and more Genealogical info every day!

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Go for it Jeffrey, beat up on his Church's beliefs. Tell him how his Church is wrong and YOUR Church is the ONLY way!

I did no such thing...

Scripturally the LDS church is wrong, not in there core beliefs, but in the power and authority that they think they have... The 'Book of Mormon' is okay (it's just another testament to Jesus Christ), but the 'Doctrines and Covenants' is not in line with all the other scriptures and falls right into the same category as 'Islamic Law'... I could tell you the who what where when and how the LDS church went off course, but that isn't what I'm about...
It was kinda odd... The Missionaries asked me to pray to God and ask Him if the church was true... I did, and I got a response (in the form of knowledge) but it wasn't the one they were expecting... I never did find the heart to tell them what I now know...
ANY church is a good start, but if you want to find God you had better get into His books... ;)

This is a very good start, BUT you can do better than that!

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You must worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience, of course.

NO... I worship God according to what He dictates, not a church that only chooses to follows a portion of what God has revealed to mankind... As a Mormon you should know that ALL these books come from the same God, ESPECIALLY when this info comes from the part of Gods doctrine that you claim to follow...

"God sent a messenger to every nation and to every people"... Have you read your book lately? Ever? Sometimes I wonder... ;)

This is a good start Jeffrey, keep it up. Show us how YOUR God is the one and only true God and that anyone that does not believe as you do is going to visit Mr. Lucifer himself.

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WOW ! You guys are having fun ! Any chance of one of you converting the other ?

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Mikey, could you please email me privately?

If you don't have the address, it's knightmare_rush@yahoo

I have something I wish to discuss with you. :-)

If it takes me a bit to respond, it means that I am sleeping...lol

I'll answer as soon as I wake up.

Thanks.