Middle East is in Crisis Again Closed

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Message 369359 - Posted: 16 Jul 2006, 15:19:40 UTC - in response to Message 369352.  

If I were playing 'evil dictator of the world' wargame...

I'd have N.Korea invade the South. Iran invade Iraq to tie up the allied forces there....
China can move into N.Korea to 'stabilize' territory.

Japan can attack out of its own national interest. Russia can move forces to the Eastern border..

Syria reoccupy Lebanon......and invade the Israelies

We could throw a war party and invite everyone. Now THAT'S a war....

Yes, but let's not forget what's really important here...


...who's going to get the television rights?

Would you want to invest with me? I've saved up a few bucks from gambling....we may have a winner here, ES
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Message 370220 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 17:20:54 UTC

Ayn Rand Institute Press Release
http://www.aynrand.org/

World Leaders Encourage Hezbollah and Hamas
July 17, 2006

Irvine, CA—"The worldwide condemnation of Israel's retaliation against Lebanon is morally obscene," said Dr. Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute. "The calls effectively demand that the innocent victim be sacrificed to the aggressor."

"Instead of excoriating Hezbollah and helping Israel to annihilate it, President Bush and other leaders urged that the victim, Israel, not cause 'excessive' damage to the aggressor--and begged that no harm come to Lebanon's terrorist-supporting government. Were Israel to follow such calls, it would have to leave in place the terrorist leadership and infrastructure that works to abduct, blow up and slaughter Israelis.

"The obscene premise governing so many of the West's leaders is the belief that we have no moral right to defend ourselves against the forces of Islamist barbarism.

"All of this can serve only to encourage Islamic totalitarian groups to intensify their war on Israel--and the West."


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Message 370276 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 18:27:05 UTC

Very good Robert, very good...here hear.
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Message 370293 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 18:45:53 UTC

Irvine, CA—"The worldwide condemnation of Israel's retaliation against Lebanon is morally obscene," said Dr. Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute. "The calls effectively demand that the innocent victim be sacrificed to the aggressor."


And where we really screwed up is by not following through after pressuring them to hold democratic type election. They basically elected a terrorist government, which should have been condemned instantly by the West. Without placing sanctions on the new government, we have in essence given them our blessing to initiate terrorist acts towards Israel. There should be no tolerance for that behavior.
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Message 370334 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 20:07:45 UTC - in response to Message 370293.  

And where we really screwed up is by not following through after pressuring them to hold democratic type election. They basically elected a terrorist government, which should have been condemned instantly by the West. Without placing sanctions on the new government, we have in essence given them our blessing to initiate terrorist acts towards Israel. There should be no tolerance for that behavior.

Damn foreigners, not electing who we tell them to! It's not democratic I tell you!
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Message 370344 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 20:28:52 UTC

Ya know, this was Palistine in the first place. it was when Jesus was born. and for centries on. Then came the "Crusader's" that " in the name of christainanity", pilaged and stole artifacts only to Piss of the muslum world. even today we are considerd "Crusader's". then in the late 40's Jews attacked and captured palistine and renamed it Iserial. Though all the palistian's in camp's and expected them to be happy. the history in that area goes back to far to try to pick sides, but, Iserial needs to give back some and live peacefully with its nabors. the hole mess revolves around that one action. If they are "God's chosen one's" then they need to act like it and prove to the lord that they are. Peace and good will to ALL man, what ever religon they are. I think the whole world needs to step in and dissarm the whole area, Jews and all and make peace possible for all who lives in the middle east.
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Message 370345 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 20:34:04 UTC - in response to Message 370293.  

Irvine, CA—"The worldwide condemnation of Israel's retaliation against Lebanon is morally obscene," said Dr. Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute. "The calls effectively demand that the innocent victim be sacrificed to the aggressor."


And where we really screwed up is by not following through after pressuring them to hold democratic type election. They basically elected a terrorist government, which should have been condemned instantly by the West. Without placing sanctions on the new government, we have in essence given them our blessing to initiate terrorist acts towards Israel. There should be no tolerance for that behavior.

The Palestinians elected Hamas as their ruling party, not Lebanon. Lebanon has a mildly pro-western government... it just happens to be a mildly pro-western government that was unable or unwilling to exert its soveriegnty over the Hezbollah militants operating within its borders.

Personally, I believe that Lebanon was taking baby steps in this direction but it was:

1. Not fast enough to stop a conflagration that could have happened at any time (i.e., when Iran needed a distraction), or

2. Hezbollah or its sponsors saw that Hezbollah would eventually be handled by Lebanon and decided to use-it-or-lose-it, or

3. A combination of the above.
No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.
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Message 370347 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 20:38:13 UTC - in response to Message 370334.  

And where we really screwed up is by not following through after pressuring them to hold democratic type election. They basically elected a terrorist government, which should have been condemned instantly by the West. Without placing sanctions on the new government, we have in essence given them our blessing to initiate terrorist acts towards Israel. There should be no tolerance for that behavior.

Damn foreigners, not electing who we tell them to! It's not democratic I tell you!


Not that we need to get our foot in the door there. At least the idea of a democratic government is vastly better than the one they had (?) In any case, for want of a better solution, just how should the best course of action be?

Ya know, this was Palistine in the first place. it was when Jesus was born. and for centries on. Then came the "Crusader's" that " in the name of christainanity", pilaged and stole artifacts only to Piss of the muslum world.


And Palestinians had effecticely abandoned this land in order to persue "greener pastures" in and around Saudi Arabia and Egypt only to be shunned and tossed out of those countries. So now that Israel has pulled out of West Bank areas and allowed some room to breathe (remember, there was still a lot of 'cross-border' traffic between the two areas) all that has resulted in is a closer launching area for missle attacks. Who is provoking who now?
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Message 370350 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 20:45:46 UTC


The Palestinians elected Hamas as their ruling party, not Lebanon. Lebanon has a mildly pro-western government... it just happens to be a mildly pro-western government that was unable or unwilling to exert its soveriegnty over the Hezbollah militants operating within its borders.


In as much as whatever elections they held, a majority of the voters decided to put a blatantly militant group at the helm, why shouldn't they be held accountable? It's not as if 30% of the voting populace voted someone in that held the majority, it was a majority of the population. If they had wanted a more moderate party ruling, Hamas would not have been the primary pick. And since there have been no peaceful overtures from this party (read: they only want the destruction of Israel) then what are the terms of negotation? Please stop killing me so we can talk peace?
Sanctions at the minimum, but what do you take away from someone who only wants to play with fire? You have to take away their matches.
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Message 370354 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 20:58:06 UTC - in response to Message 370350.  


The Palestinians elected Hamas as their ruling party, not Lebanon. Lebanon has a mildly pro-western government... it just happens to be a mildly pro-western government that was unable or unwilling to exert its soveriegnty over the Hezbollah militants operating within its borders.


In as much as whatever elections they held, a majority of the voters decided to put a blatantly militant group at the helm, why shouldn't they be held accountable? It's not as if 30% of the voting populace voted someone in that held the majority, it was a majority of the population. If they had wanted a more moderate party ruling, Hamas would not have been the primary pick. And since there have been no peaceful overtures from this party (read: they only want the destruction of Israel) then what are the terms of negotation? Please stop killing me so we can talk peace?
Sanctions at the minimum, but what do you take away from someone who only wants to play with fire? You have to take away their matches.

Israel bent over backwards to its own detriment to acommodate the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip... had Hamas been interested in peace, it could have served as a model of getting the West Bank as well. However, as is clear to anyone with a functioning neuron, Hamas is not interested in peace. That's why there's a shooting war going on in Gaza right now.

Hezbollah may have thought that Israel was too embroiled in Gaza to act with any real power in the north. Hezbollah is learning the error of that reasoning as Israel fights a two-front war and then started calling up its reserves.
No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.
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Message 370396 - Posted: 17 Jul 2006, 23:09:43 UTC - in response to Message 370354.  

Hezbollah may have thought that Israel was too embroiled in Gaza to act with any real power in the north. Hezbollah is learning the error of that reasoning as Israel fights a two-front war and then started calling up its reserves.

According to the Lebanese Ambassador Israel kidnapped 2 Hezbollah soldiers a month agao, that led to Hezbollah kidnapping the 2 soldiers. A tit for tat if you must. Israel decided enough was enough and you know the rest. I have no proof of the accuracy of what the Ambassador said, but he said it.

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Message 371782 - Posted: 19 Jul 2006, 21:39:27 UTC

The UN human rights chief Louise Arbour has said that under international humanitarian law that there is a "supreme obligation to protect civilians during hostilities". Arbour suggests killings could be war crimes.
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Message 371784 - Posted: 19 Jul 2006, 21:51:59 UTC - in response to Message 371782.  

The UN human rights chief Louise Arbour has said that under international humanitarian law that there is a "supreme obligation to protect civilians during hostilities". Arbour suggests killings could be war crimes.

There are two issues that often get co-mingled. One is attacking in a way that doesn't minimize civilian casualties. The other is the doctrine of "proportionality."

Israel has been taking steps to avoid civilian casualties but has not been detered from attacking when Hezbollah has used human shields. Here the operative crime is the use of human shields. Hezbollah has been blatantly attacking civilian targets. That's two against Hezbollah.

On the doctrine of proportionality, this is enumerated in a treaty that Israel never signed, so it doesn't apply. No points there.

Israel has inflicted a tremendous amount of damage on civilian infrastructure, but the case can be made for military necessity: Hezbollah uses that infrastructure to facilitate attacks against Israel. Diplomats with 20/20 hindsight will undoubtedly find a point against Israel, but it will be unfairly assessed.
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Message 371805 - Posted: 19 Jul 2006, 22:57:03 UTC

Dear Editor:

Islamic totalitarians have explicitly stated their goal: to
forcibly impose Islamic law around the world. To succeed, they will
continue to attack those parts of the world that oppose
their "divine mission." The United States, Israel, Canada,
England, India, and any other country that places the least bit of
value on freedom and progress, will continue to be targets.

The freer nations need to recognize the real nature of this
enemy: an ideology that demands complete submission to Allah,
either voluntarily or at the point of a knife. Do you wait for the
knife to slit your throat or do you fight back and defend yourself?

The combined military strength of the freer countries is more than
enough to eliminate decisively and definitively the assorted
collection of murderous terrorists and the governments that support
them financially or ideologically. There is no need for an
endless global conflict. What there is a need for is a
recognition that those of us living in freer countries have the right
to take any necessary actions to defend ourselves--and that our
lives are at stake.

Debi Ghate
Vice President, Academic Programs


Copyright (c) 2006 Ayn Rand(R) Institute. All rights reserved.

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Message 371863 - Posted: 20 Jul 2006, 0:37:06 UTC - in response to Message 370396.  

Hezbollah may have thought that Israel was too embroiled in Gaza to act with any real power in the north. Hezbollah is learning the error of that reasoning as Israel fights a two-front war and then started calling up its reserves.

According to the Lebanese Ambassador Israel kidnapped 2 Hezbollah soldiers a month agao, that led to Hezbollah kidnapping the 2 soldiers. A tit for tat if you must. Israel decided enough was enough and you know the rest. I have no proof of the accuracy of what the Ambassador said, but he said it.

Israel probably didn't go into Lebanon to capture the soldiers. They probably captured them when they were in Israel which is not the same thing.
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Message 371875 - Posted: 20 Jul 2006, 1:11:09 UTC - in response to Message 370344.  
Last modified: 20 Jul 2006, 1:34:51 UTC

Ya know, this was Palistine in the first place. it was when Jesus was born. and for centries on. Then came the "Crusader's" that " in the name of christainanity", pilaged and stole artifacts only to Piss of the muslum world. even today we are considerd "Crusader's". then in the late 40's Jews attacked and captured palistine and renamed it Iserial. Though all the palistian's in camp's and expected them to be happy. the history in that area goes back to far to try to pick sides, but, Iserial needs to give back some and live peacefully with its nabors. the hole mess revolves around that one action. If they are "God's chosen one's" then they need to act like it and prove to the lord that they are. Peace and good will to ALL man, what ever religon they are. I think the whole world needs to step in and dissarm the whole area, Jews and all and make peace possible for all who lives in the middle east.



Early History of Palestine


The Jews were always present in Land of Israel.
The Romans changed the name from Land Of Israel to Palastina after 70 AD.
It wasn't until the 640 AD that the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized.

It is important to note that there was a Jewish population in Palestine continuously. Even after the Jewish state was ended by the Romans, Jewish communities continued to exist. All of the successor governments tried to eliminate the Jews at one time or another, but none succeeded as numerous accounts testify over the centuries. When the Zionists started the modern "return" to Eretz Yisrael in the 19th Century, they were joining Jews who never left.



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Message 372347 - Posted: 20 Jul 2006, 15:28:59 UTC

The Jerusalem Post has quoted the Lebanese Minister of Defense threatening Israel that if the IDF mounts a ground invasion, that the Lebanese Army will fight alongside Hezbollah.

First, between the IDF and Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army, I'd put the Lebanese Army as a distant third.

Second, if Lebanon's government officially protects Hezbollah from the IDF, they will likely find out just how restrained Israel has been up to this point.
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Message 372377 - Posted: 20 Jul 2006, 17:47:06 UTC - in response to Message 371863.  

Hezbollah may have thought that Israel was too embroiled in Gaza to act with any real power in the north. Hezbollah is learning the error of that reasoning as Israel fights a two-front war and then started calling up its reserves.

According to the Lebanese Ambassador Israel kidnapped 2 Hezbollah soldiers a month agao, that led to Hezbollah kidnapping the 2 soldiers. A tit for tat if you must. Israel decided enough was enough and you know the rest. I have no proof of the accuracy of what the Ambassador said, but he said it.

Israel probably didn't go into Lebanon to capture the soldiers. They probably captured them when they were in Israel which is not the same thing.

His statement said they came into Lebanon to get the 2 people. Israel says they captured 2 Hezbollah people that were on their wanted list. Israel does not say where they got the 2 people.

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Message 372386 - Posted: 20 Jul 2006, 18:14:57 UTC - in response to Message 370354.  


The Palestinians elected Hamas as their ruling party, not Lebanon. Lebanon has a mildly pro-western government... it just happens to be a mildly pro-western government that was unable or unwilling to exert its soveriegnty over the Hezbollah militants operating within its borders.


In as much as whatever elections they held, a majority of the voters decided to put a blatantly militant group at the helm, why shouldn't they be held accountable? It's not as if 30% of the voting populace voted someone in that held the majority, it was a majority of the population. If they had wanted a more moderate party ruling, Hamas would not have been the primary pick. And since there have been no peaceful overtures from this party (read: they only want the destruction of Israel) then what are the terms of negotation? Please stop killing me so we can talk peace?
Sanctions at the minimum, but what do you take away from someone who only wants to play with fire? You have to take away their matches.

Israel bent over backwards to its own detriment to acommodate the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip... had Hamas been interested in peace, it could have served as a model of getting the West Bank as well. However, as is clear to anyone with a functioning neuron, Hamas is not interested in peace. That's why there's a shooting war going on in Gaza right now.

Hezbollah may have thought that Israel was too embroiled in Gaza to act with any real power in the north. Hezbollah is learning the error of that reasoning as Israel fights a two-front war and then started calling up its reserves.


Another hate monger filtered.
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Message 372432 - Posted: 20 Jul 2006, 20:19:45 UTC

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