Man, Troy, Shakespear is hardly the same thing as your bible! Your bible tells you what reality IS and how to ACT. If you choose to modify what your text tells you to do, then you're being an utter hypocrite. Don't you see how false you are being?
Be up front about it - make your OWN new religion called 'the Gospel according to Stull'.
now excuse me, but you're stating an outright falsehood:

Sciance tests its self as do all good followers of any religon

I have never heard of any religion that actually tests itself critically, looking for errors. The errors are SO glaring, that no religion could stand against any true self-investigation. Didn't you check the quiz I linked to? try this one too:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0101/sciencequiz.html
Take the quiz. Read the answers. If you chose to discount the answers given, then why would you retain anything in the book? It's full of such errors everywhere in it. Your proof that it's wrong is right there for starters - ten quotes proven FALSE.
Here's one more for you. A fundaMENTAL one. Which existed first, Earth or the Stars?
Bible ought to get it right, eh? WRONG. It depicts Earth being created BEFORE the stars. Check your genesis. Palpable bullshit. From a time of ignorance.


Religion cannot have any common ground with science at all. Science is about PROOF. Religion is about faith. Science CANNOT admit any tenent that is not proven. Religion has never ever been able to prove itself. Parade god in front of me, and I shall admit I was wrong. Nobody has ever baan able to do that, in all of history. There is NO solid evidence whatsoever.

If you still insist that science and religion can exist together, you are doing nothing more than a child who insists that there ARE monsters under the bed. We cannot discuss the matter with you at all. You will simply go on stating a falsehood convinced you are right, when you are utterly wrong.

You are right in one thing - science does not hold all the answers to all your questions - yet. It's a work in progress, and will take thousands of years to completely know everything, if that is possible. But consider this: although a human cannot fully know his own brain (because the information would require more than the storage capacity of the storaqge capacity your are completely understanding - a self-reference) he CAN understand the principles of a neural net, and of axons and dendrites, cervical anatomy, chemical principles, and biology principles. Knowing these, he can have enough of a specialized understanding of his own brain. Science can give you the same understnding level today for most questions on reality. We know the gross functions of reality. It's the specifics that still need tying down.
NONE of those are found in any religious text. ALL of those have been found solely by VERIFIED EXPERIMENTATION. This is not religion at all.
Religion is 'thou shalt believe'. That is dogma. It is not science. (Thank you, Dr. Novotny for that).

Just because we don't have a full picture of reality, why should we then invent fantasies, or endorse someone else's fantasy? Use science to give you an answer. And if you have to wait 500 years for an answer, as Da Vinci did to be able to fly, so what? At least you have a project to pass on after you die. That's the only immortality you can have.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Without having the time to read through this whole bundle, Mr. Stull...

It is YOUR obligation to define what your 'god' is...not the other way around.

I believe in a 'clackafrackanocktapoullus'.....

Prove me wrong.

You've stepped into the stream on the wrong footing by assuming what it is you're trying to prove.

And the same is true for the other that posted here.
------------

I'll get to reading the rest later. Consider that you are wrong??????---Noooo...that won't be possible. You start with what you believe to be true and analyze everything from that point of view.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Let's see what God has to say about His Word:


Jeremiah 8:8-9

"How can you say, `We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD, and what wisdom is in them?

I Thessalonians 2:13

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

II Peter 1:20-21

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Revelation of John 6:9

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;

Revelation of John 22:18-19

I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


You either believe it, or you don't... PERIOD... ;)

"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet" (Nahum 1:3)

An introduction to the 'English Language'...

colon:
A point or character, formed thus [:], used to separate parts of a sentence that are complete in themselves and nearly independent, often taking the place of a conjunction.

metaphor:
A figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity.

Now read the verse again...

The first part was literal while the second part was a metaphor...

How do I know this?

Spiritual discernment coupled with good reading comprehension skills... ;)

Jeffrey.....that PROVES IT ALL ENTIRELY!!!


OH....ur Koran says it is only to be served by showing the Christians how 'wrong' they are....so the Jihad can take place....

I'll tell you what.....' Fluck your religion...it results in death...and makes no sense...and you're a freakin' liar....you con us WHICH IS WHAT YOUR KORAN COMMANDS YOU TO DO....


You've said over and over and over that the non muslims need to be purged....(personally, am atheist)

But your so called christrian friends are to be killled....SAY IT IS NOT SO.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I believe this is what I said: Here... ;)

Qur'an: V The Table - Recommended reading for every Christian... ;)

5:59
Say: 'People of the Book, do you blame us for any other cause than that we believe in God, and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down before, and that most of you are ungodly?'

5:61-63
When they come to you, they say, 'We believe'; but they have entered in unbelief, and so they have departed in it; God knows very well what they were hiding. Thou seest many of them vying in sin and enmity, and how they consume the unlawful; evil is the thing they have been doing. Why do the masters and the rabbis not forbid them to utter sin, and consume the unlawful? Evil is the thing they have been working.

5:68
Say: 'People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to you from your Lord.' And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will surely increase many of them in insolence and unbelief; so grieve not for the people of the unbelievers.

5:82-83
Thou wilt surely find the most hostile of men to the believers are the Jews and the idolaters; and thou wilt surely find the nearest of them in love to the believers are those who say 'We are Christians'; that, because some of them are priests and monks, and they wax not proud; and when they hear what has been sent down to the Messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of the truth they recognize. They say, 'Our Lord, we believe; so do Thou write us down among the witnesses.

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

We know your hate from now on.....

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I believe this is what I said: Here... ;)

Qur'an: V The Table - Recommended reading for every Christian... ;)

5:59
Say: 'People of the Book, do you blame us for any other cause than that we believe in God, and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down before, and that most of you are ungodly?'

5:61-63
When they come to you, they say, 'We believe'; but they have entered in unbelief, and so they have departed in it; God knows very well what they were hiding. Thou seest many of them vying in sin and enmity, and how they consume the unlawful; evil is the thing they have been doing. Why do the masters and the rabbis not forbid them to utter sin, and consume the unlawful? Evil is the thing they have been working.

5:68
Say: 'People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to you from your Lord.' And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will surely increase many of them in insolence and unbelief; so grieve not for the people of the unbelievers.

5:82-83
Thou wilt surely find the most hostile of men to the believers are the Jews and the idolaters; and thou wilt surely find the nearest of them in love to the believers are those who say 'We are Christians'; that, because some of them are priests and monks, and they wax not proud; and when they hear what has been sent down to the Messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of the truth they recognize. They say, 'Our Lord, we believe; so do Thou write us down among the witnesses.

Do you have a spare copy Jeffery, I ran out of toilet paper.

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Account frozen...

Well, genius, according to

II Peter 1:20-21

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

YOU CANNOT THEREFORE INTERPRET ANY PART OF YOUR 'HOLY' BOOK AT ALL. You cannot claim a single word of it is 'metaphor'. You proceed under the assumption that your book was written by the hand of a man entirely guided by your god. You can't then decide that some of it is metaphor! "Who the hell are you to question and put answers into your god's mouth?" Isn't that what religious leaders say all the time? You are the biggest hypocrite, in believing and upholding ONLY the parts that support your own position. This has NOTHING to do with 'spiritual discernment' bullcrap! This is personal discernment for personal advantage!
An introduction to the english language: If some thing says

You either believe it, or you don't... PERIOD...

Then you do just that - make a choice. An introduction to beginner's logic: Not a wimpy half-choice, deciding since believing something blatantly false would be ludicrous, to change it and claim it was therefore metaphorical.

Seems you're quite the liar anyway, jeffrey. I haven't heard anything about "the Demon Haunted World", which you alluded to having. Where did you get the inside dedication quote, from checking the first few pages on Amazon.com? How about "Oasis in Space"? I haven't heard anything from you about that, when you asked for the proof of Earth's non-godly accretion in the first place! You asked for that months ago! Haven't you read the proof I cited?



You're going to get targeted and shown for the hypocritical liar you are every time, jeffrey. Robert asked you a direct question

But your so called christrian friends are to be killled....SAY IT IS NOT SO.

And you didn't say it was not so. You twisted and shifted like a weasel, and gave a non-answer that removes responsibility from you for making an answer. ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT IS PUT TO YOU.
Here's the answer your koran dictates, posted by myself already before:

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Koran 9:29)

“So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them,..."(Koran 47:4)

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191-2

Do you read english jeffrey? I do. It says to kill disbelievers. It doesn't say turn the other cheek. It doesn't say repel them on a tit-for-tat basis. It says to KILL disbelievers like myself and like Robert, and like any other christian, who, as you have said, "most of you are ungodly?"

I am sure you aren't coming to slice my head off with a dull knife. I am pretty sure you wouldn't actually commit such crimes, (although you might sit passively by and let them happen) because you seem to have some sense of actual western morality. But I could be entirely wrong on this. Time to make an actual choice jeffrey, and show your true stripes. You haven't done so, so far.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Since I can't see the last thread I posted, and therfore can't edit it, here's one more for ya, Robert:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

I'd have a whole lot more respect for him if he just came out and said plainly, "I want you dead dead dead". Lol, then we'd have somebody that says what he means and means what he says.

---------------------------------------

As for Mr. Hyland, although I disagree with him I've got to admire the fact that he purports to have looked over different belief systems himself and settled on one. (I would have settled on no religion but....).

At least he had the courage, I presume, to make up his own mind about what it is he wanted to believe in.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

sigh... again I'm not suggesting that you modify what it say. Look at it like this, Matthew says He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Now, you can take as nothing more then what it says to mean that you live a life of violence you will die in violence. (Trust me I get that one...) However you can also take it mean that in life, you generaly get what you had coming not just in referance to living a life in conflict but in your dealings with others. No two minds are completly alike and their going to find diffrent meanings in the same things, look at how long they've been pouring over the works of Da vinci, everyone finding their own meanings.

Hey... I'm here aren't I, activly asking you to find flaws in my belifes? So I don't know how you can say that no one in religon ever tests their faith critcly, but saddly I'm not getting any real test here, just a lot of 'thats bullshit' and referances to brainwashing, nothing really useful as far as expanding my belifes. So sir, I would say that your entire argument just collapsed.

I hate to break it to you, but the bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Dosen't say that he created the at the same time, just that they where created in the same 'Day'. There for it is still every bit viable to have had the 'havens' crated long before the earth ever formed. Sir, please check your facts in the future.

Have you read much of the works of C.S. Lewis? You might want to chek him out, he has extensive writings on faith based on reason. You'd likely get a kick out him. And in reality, there is a good deal of archlogical evidance to support, not just the bible but many other works. There is also no evidence against either, well nothing credible any way.

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/Central Florida Astronomical Society

Mr. Stull,

That is one of my favorite quotes from the bible. Here's 2 more of my favorites (paraphrased of course, as I'm not going to go get my Oxford Bible out of the shelf).

1. Love thy neighbor as thyself (it teaches you to at least to love yourself)

2. What does it benefit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

This one teaches you to acknowledge principles above material gains.

Now, once you claim what your god is and give him attributes then we can begin again. I won't call your ideas 'BS'...although we are sure to disagree on most everything....

But when a man says he believes in a thing, whatever it is, he ought to know what the definition and identity of that thing is. You seem sharp so let's hear it.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Now for the complete verse(s)...

4:89 They but wish that you should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they: so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah from what has been forbidden. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks:

Reading on...

4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty of peace, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people.

In summary...

Choose your friends wisely... ;)

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FYI... Same footing = Lacking Spiritual discernment...

Isaiah 44:18 They know not, nor do they discern; for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their minds, so that they cannot understand.

Religion has never ever been able to prove itself.

Chuck, that is why it is called religious faith rather than religious science.

Mr. Stull,

That is one of my favorite quotes from the bible. Here's 2 more of my favorites (paraphrased of course, as I'm not going to go get my Oxford Bible out of the shelf).

1. Love thy neighbor as thyself (it teaches you to at least to love yourself)

2. What does it benefit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

This one teaches you to acknowledge principles above material gains.

Now, once you claim what your god is and give him attributes then we can begin again. I won't call your ideas 'BS'...although we are sure to disagree on most everything....

But when a man says he believes in a thing, whatever it is, he ought to know what the definition and identity of that thing is. You seem sharp so let's hear it.

I have no issue with disagrements, as I said before I seek to have what i belive challenged, tested and examined thats the entire point. Ok well as far as defineing my God you could as a smile starting place start with more or less the God of the New Testiment.

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/Central Florida Astronomical Society

Exactly - it is faith. It isn't proven.
Science requires proof. Without proof, it is not science. Please axplain how the both can exist in harmony. That's utter bullshit. It's like saying your freezing snowball is also as hot as a red charcoal briquette from the grill.
A child will insist that a cold ball of snow can be super-hot at the same time.
This is the kind of 'logic' we're dealing with here.

Jeffrey, even if the translation I found is inaccurate, your translation STILL commands you to "seize them and slay them wherever you find them". So, jeffrey. WHO does that mean you are commanded to kill? Me? Robert? Es99? All of us? Any non-muslim at all? Didn't answer any direct questions again, did you, I.M.Weasel?



Troy...your words say one thing. One thing. NOT "you generaly get what you had coming". It doesn't say that. It says if you live using a sword, a sword will kill you. Given that that is demonstrably WRONG over and over, you try to make it metaphorical and change the meaning. (flaw #1) Fine. Even if we take it to mean that violence begets violence, it is STILL a globalization that is never 100% correct. So sorry, but your bible has just been proven WRONG yet again. (flaw #2)
Your genesis says that god created the heavens and the Earth on the first day. It doesn't say 'long expanse of years, which to god is as a day'. No. It says DAY. (flaw#3)If your bible is sooo correct in everything, then either genesis is wrong, or the verse given below about the bible being inspired directly by god is wrong. (flaw#4) We have more proof of genesis being wrong: given your non-mentionned immense spanses of time, how could plants created on the third 'day' have survived without light until the creation of the sun on the 'fourth' day. (flaw#5)Aside from the fact that sun's gravity was required along with nuclear fission to clear away the gas and dust between the forming planets. PROOF that Sun existed before Earth was done accreting, and CERTAINLY billions of years before PLANTS came into being! (flaw#6)Terrestrial plants before the sun! Give me a friggin break! The stupidity makes me want to bash my own head into a brick wall.
Would you like some MORE examples of how ludicrous your 'holy' book is? Actually GO to that landoverbaptist link I gave you, and actually READ the results of the quizzes. (at LEAST 10 flaws per quiz, and 25 quizzes makes at least 250 flaws.) Then come back here and see what you have to say. But no, you ignore that part, don't you?
Don't claim to an understanding of science, Troy. You're not interested in objective proof. 'Scientologists' claim the same type of baloney (among other types) you're claiming: since science doesn't have a complete explanation of reality, religion must therefore be the answer to fill the 'holes' you're too impatient to have in your lifetime.

So I've demonstrated 5 flaws, I've referenced 250 other flaws, and you have yet to provide proof of your purported 'archaeological evidence to support, not just the bible but many other works'. Since I have never ever heard of it in science, I assume you went into your own backyard with a shovel and dug up a radio to god yesterday?

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Exactly - it is faith. It isn't proven.
Science requires proof.

you sure of that? there seems to be a lot of theory in Science.

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/Central Florida Astronomical Society

WHO does that mean you are commanded to kill?

Now for the complete verse(s)...

4:89 They but wish that you should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they: so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah from what has been forbidden. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks:

Reading on...

4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty of peace, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people.

Reading on... ( For those who didn't quite understand the 1st half of verse 4:90 )

4:90 ... If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and instead send you guarantees of peace, then Allah has opened no way for you to war against them.

KILLING IS ONLY PRESCRIBED FOR SELF DEFENSE !!!

HOW MANY MORE TIMES WILL I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS ???

;)

Exactly - it is faith. It isn't proven.
Science requires proof. Without proof, it is not science. Please axplain how the both can exist in harmony. That's utter bullshit. It's like saying your freezing snowball is also as hot as a red charcoal briquette from the grill.

Chuck, the areas in question do not overlap. I am not saying that an apple is an orange.

My belief is that the majority of the problems that exist between your 'science is all' and those of the 'religion is all' points of view occur because both sides of the argument have either forgotten or never learned that the questions that are explored by religion are those of motivation, and the questions explored by science are those of method. In other words, religion asks why and science asks how.