I was going to post in the original thread that started this whole mess. It was hidden, then for reasons I still do not understand was revived by the original author. All that has been accomplished is NOT preventing anyone from doing anything wrong but preventing a lot of people from getting "tasks" completed faster.

Sure, on the whole, the community is not noticing anything different. A new app version installed itself; "Boy, those SETI people are working hard to stay up to date!"

As for me, I am not going to reset the computers that need to get the new version and others are not getting new work from SETI (enhanced or BETA). I will wait and see if sanity returns.

Thanks a bunch, Tony!

[edit:spelling]

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Hey, there's two of you now. And you each have a RAC of about 45, so that would be roughly 1.5 work units (90 credits) completed each day for you guys!

Steve, yes that's 2 of us....sorry our RAC doesn't live up to your liking, where there are 2 of us I'm sure
many more would follow.

And let me say this: SETI doesn't owe us a thing...it's their sandbox!

I'll second that, it's there bed, they can make it how they like it. And yes they will have to sleep in it if it doesn't work out.

Andrew

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Hey, there's two of you now. And you each have a RAC of about 45, so that would be roughly 1.5 work units (90 credits) completed each day for you guys!

Let's please not get into that kind of talk. That's not what SETI is all about. We all contribute what we can and some of us choose to crunch only with spare CPU cycles. If you were to review my posts either here or at Beta you would see that I have a lot of respect for the investment of time and hardware you guys make. Being a student with a disability on an extremely tight budget, I can only donate the spare cycles from my one machine, but it is still 100% of what I have available and I'm happy to give it to SETI.

I am on strike for at least a week. I stopped all work for Seti@Home.
I will continue to inform other users, that they should do the same.

Broeno

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Hey, there's two of you now. And you each have a RAC of about 45, so that would be roughly 1.5 work units (90 credits) completed each day for you guys!

Let's please not get into that kind of talk. That's not what SETI is all about. We all contribute what we can and some of us choose to crunch only with spare CPU cycles. Making derogatory remarks about how small someone's RAC is has no bearing whatsoever on the current situation. I believe Freud might have a few comments on your pre-occupation with it as well.

I am merely pointing out that those most vocal about the lack of importance credits play in attracting volunteers are typically the ones who do very little themselves (compared to those who compete), and thus have very low credits.

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http://www.setiusa.net

Hey, there's two of you now. And you each have a RAC of about 45, so that would be roughly 1.5 work units (90 credits) completed each day for you guys!

I don't give a stuff about the RAC, its a meaningless number plus I'm actively crunching 17 projects, the average RAC for a single project will never get high for me unless it the project is in EDF mode like one of my machines has been for the pass 2 months to finish a climate WU.

Andrew

You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.

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You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.

I don't care period, whether I had a large RAC or not. The biggest mistake that S@H made was to put a credit system in place, it was my opinion in '99-2000 it most definitely is today.

Andrew

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You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.

I don't care period, whether I had a large RAC or not. The biggest mistake that S@H made was to put a credit system in place, it was my opinion in '99-2000 it most definitely is today.

Andrew

If you don't care period, Andrew? Why even argue the point?

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http://www.setiusa.net

You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.

I don't care period, whether I had a large RAC or not. The biggest mistake that S@H made was to put a credit system in place, it was my opinion in '99-2000 it most definitely is today.

Andrew

If you don't care period, Andrew? Why even argue the point?

Sick of people bitching about a misunderstanding, a lost email, big egos and hurt pride. So I'm spreading my love and opinion around seeing as people think every one is entitled to voice there opinion.

Andrew

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You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.

I don't care period, whether I had a large RAC or not. The biggest mistake that S@H made was to put a credit system in place, it was my opinion in '99-2000 it most definitely is today.

Andrew

If you don't care period, Andrew? Why even argue the point?

Sick of people bitching about a misunderstanding, a lost email, big egos and hurt pride. So I'm spreading my love and opinion around seeing as people think every one is entitled to voice there opinion.

Andrew

Well, just take some time away from reading these threads. I agree there are too many irrelevant opinions being thrown out here.

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http://www.setiusa.net

For goodness sake, you make credits sound like a "currency", and a case of the haves and havenots (especially when RAC is concerned).

Unbelievable.

You guys are starting to sound like a cartel! The top 20% 'producing' 80% of the effort......(the market is cornered) lucky you don't have a political party and weapons, we could call you a nation state and the you could declare war on the Berkleyites.

Add free market competition (the other projects) and wow, we got a whole little world here with its own political factions.

Perhaps you should all take a long hard look at what is going on and see the project(s) for what they are.

A contribution to mankind

Why can't people just be happy with their individual effort and contribution to a bigger picture?

If information was available as to the worldwide progress and stats (all stars, regions and frequencies mapped/remapped globally, the credit system would be displaced (people may actually see it for what it really is - USELESS)).

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Belief gets in the way of learning

Well, just take some time away from reading these threads. I agree there are too many irrelevant opinions being thrown out here.

First time I've read the Boards in about a week, I work from home and it's been a quite day, but thanks for the advise.

Andrew

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Has Atlas Shrugged?

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

For goodness sake, you make credits sound like a "currency", and a case of the haves and havenots (especially when RAC is concerned).

Unbelievable.

You guys are starting to sound like a cartel! The top 20% 'producing' 80% of the effort......(the market is cornered) lucky you don't have a political party and weapons, we could call you a nation state and the you could declare war on the Berkleyites.

Add free market competition (the other projects) and wow, we got a whole little world here with its own political factions.

Perhaps you should all take a long hard look at what is going on and see the project(s) for what they are.

A contribution to mankind

Why can't people just be happy with their individual effort and contribution to a bigger picture?

If information was available as to the worldwide progress and stats (all stars, regions and frequencies mapped/remapped globally, the credit system would be displaced (people may actually see it for what it really is - USELESS)).

ok, now a third case in point.

Total credit 5,866.87
Recent average credit 37.51

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http://www.setiusa.net

ok, now a third case in point.

Total credit 5,866.87
Recent average credit 37.51

The more that follow the two.

Andrew

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Another thought: How 'bout if credit systems were done away with completely? And you only get the satisifaction of knowing you're a participant. How many of us would reamain onboard?

If there were no acknowledgement whatsoever, I probably wouldn’t. But for me it would suffice to be able to see my own cobblestones, WU count, CPU time, or whatever measure of my contribution, in my own client interface and account pages, along with some assurance that it was also being permanently recorded somewhere. I enjoy certain aspects of the competition, teams, and (especially) stats-tracking and -graphing stuff, and have availed myself of the opportunity to display my scores, post in Milestones threads, and so on, but as motivation that’s not at the make-or-break level.

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ok, now a third case in point.

Total credit 5,866.87
Recent average credit 37.51

The more that follow the two.

Andrew

So, the three of you have a combined RAC of approx 131. That's fine, and we all appreciate your contributions to the science here. Now look at my stats for my 2 computers:

Total credit 455,722.80
Recent average credit 767.06

That means I'm contributing 5.85 times the amount of science work as the three of you, which makes me alone worth nearly 18 of you in terms of science work production for SETI.

I am not stating this to brag or toot my horn - merely to illustrate that SETI lost 18 of you when I left and switched to other projects this weekend.

And, you are posting flames insinuating it is bad that we compete for credits - what does it matter to you? You say you don't care about credits after all. And what difference does it make what motivates me vs. you in the end anyway? I'm producing more science work for the project (well, I was) which should be the best thing for the Berkeley scientists and our search for ET!

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http://www.setiusa.net

For goodness sake, you make credits sound like a "currency", and a case of the haves and havenots (especially when RAC is concerned).

Unbelievable.

You guys are starting to sound like a cartel! The top 20% 'producing' 80% of the effort......(the market is cornered) lucky you don't have a political party and weapons, we could call you a nation state and the you could declare war on the Berkleyites.

Add free market competition (the other projects) and wow, we got a whole little world here with its own political factions.

Perhaps you should all take a long hard look at what is going on and see the project(s) for what they are.

A contribution to mankind

Why can't people just be happy with their individual effort and contribution to a bigger picture?

If information was available as to the worldwide progress and stats (all stars, regions and frequencies mapped/remapped globally, the credit system would be displaced (people may actually see it for what it really is - USELESS)).

ok, now a third case in point.

Total credit 5,866.87
Recent average credit 37.51

Thanks for re-enforcing my claims above.

Steve Akers
Joined: Sep 5, 2004
Posts: 102
ID: 7806029
Credit: 455,723
RAC: 767

Do you think the above Credits and RAC have ANY intrinsic value beyond you being personally satisfied with your contribution to a world-wide project??

Do people look on at your numbers (cause thats all they are) with ENVY? Admiration? Respect?

It should never come to that as these values are human constructions and worth nothing.

Talk about warped thinking..............

If the top 20% of 'crunchers' walked away today, SETI@HOME could completely revamp the credit system (i.e. disband it) and provide a more valuable measure of progress (like which star systems, maps, whatever have been examined).

I suspect that they havent done it already because of advocates like yourself, but it is only a matter of time.

>> MESSAGE TO THE MODS AND BERKLEY <<

**** UPGRADE THE CREDIT SYSTEM TO A WORLDWIDE PROGRESS TRACKING SYSTEM ****

Now, this would be progress!!

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Belief gets in the way of learning

You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.

Outrageous pomposity! Does higher RAC make you a better person in any way? Shame!

Am I the only one who feels this deserves redress??? In the recent past such crass comments as his would have been blown out of the water by dozens. Step up people!

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Without love, breath is just a clock ... ticking.
Equilibrium

Let's do some number crunching.

On BOINCstats, SETI@home currently has 460,156 users and 7,334,459,113 (over seven billion) credits for SETI@home.

Trux mentioned that a reference SETI work unit generates 32.32 cobblestones on a reference machine.

These figures then give a total of 226,932,522 work units.

Let's assume 1% of total WUs used Crunch3r's code. That's 2,269,325 work units.

Let's assume that, on average, Crunch3r's work cuts 20% off execution time. Conversely, we can say that 25% more work is done on Crunch3r-enabled machines than on non-optimized ones.

Without Crunch3r's code, those machines would only have completed 1,815,460 work units. With optimization, 453,865 additional work units were completed.

Again, using the BOINCstats figures above, SETI@home averages 493 work units per user.

Everything else being equal, Crunch3r's code has generated the work of 920 ADDITIONAL average users.

Everything else being equal, there are 4,603 users running Crunch3r's code.

On BOINCstats, SETI generates roughly 20 million credits per day. That's 43 work units per user per day.

Using the data above, a Crunch3r user generates 25% more work units than a standard user.

If all 4,603 Crunch3r users stoppped work, SETI loses 247,411 work units per day. Over 100 hundred days, a full boycott results in 24,741,100 lost work units.

These are a lot of assumptions. Scale them up or down, according to your inclination.

Also, please check the math. I may have gotten some things wrong.

After all is said and done, perhaps what I'm trying to say is:
1. people use Crunch3r's code because it gets more science done;
2. SETI benefits because more science is done sooner rather than later; and
3. people supporting Crunch3r have a right to be upset because, without him, further optimization may not be forthcoming (unless asokf, TMR, and others fill in the vacuum, or the project gets more funding to support further optimization).

I'm shifting my machines to other projects in the meantime. Like Crunch3r, I don't have access to all my machines all the time, so some of them will still be crunching SETI.

I'll set SETI to "no new work" until Crunch3r comes back. For this, it would be enough that the project (Dr. Anderson, et al) ask him to come back and continue his work, with or without "official" endorsement. If Crunch3r refuses, I'll reassess my stand then.

Months ago, I added Einstein so my machines can work even when SETI was down. Last week, when both SETI and Einstein were down, I added QMC, SIMAP, and SZTAKI. I chose these other projects because I was interested in the science they were doing, but also because asokf has released optimized apps for SIMAP and SZTAKI as well. QMC isn't optimized, but... I like the science enough to crunch for it without optimized clients.

I'm not on any team. I'm not in this for the RAC.

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