Just out of interest why do you need the return immediately option?

I like to keep track of my machines as they also function as low access rate data servers for a process that runs on one of my older machines, and I know (or did know) how long it takes each one of them to complete a WU. But I do not always have direct access to them or the local network. I do however almost always have access to the Internet and the Berkeley servers, and can check there on one publicly accessible web page, day or night, to see when the last contact with each of the systems was. This allows me to remotely check on them and detect system hangs and power glitches that get through each machines UPS. (This is South Florida after all.) I then know when my attention at home is needed and how important the outage is.

With Seti@home Classic and SetiQue I could do the same by checking the total count progress as I knew my average rate of production, but not check individual machines. One reason I stuck with it to the end. A neighbor who remotely maintains a large number of his clients systems scattered across the country was doing the same thing by setting up a Seti@home Classic account for each account or small group of systems. This way he could check on them during times of the day when he did not normally have (for security reasons) direct access to them. Security issues with things like programs updates being automatically downloadable through company firewalls has ended his use of Setiathome except on his own personal systems.

My original interest in optimized applications was so I could detect much sooner when a system of mine was down, and why I don't care for longer running Enhanced WU's. (I have no interest in any of the other BOINC based projects!) Interest in completion came later as part of The Planetary Society team. The delaying of reporting of WU's by several hours or much more has caused numerous wasted trips home. Trux's optimized client solved that problem. But of course I will soon be back to five or more hours before a system outage is detected. And will most likely have to find some other way to check on them when I am not at home (or stay home more). Setting up my own Internet server is not an option allowed or supported by my ISP, and I really don't care for another process running on each of my systems connecting to the Internet or that reports to some commercial web site. SetiQue was nice in that I could isolate all Internet contact to one system and not expose the others.

@Jack Gulley,

I suppose in you case it makes a little bit of sense, guess I'm just not that competative these days.

Must be annoying to live in a supposedly modern country, and get such a bad electricty supply. But then again looking at the past history of railway track, freeways, cars etc it is probably what I should expect in your country ;-)

Andy

Must be annoying to live in a supposedly modern country, and get such a bad electric supply. But then again looking at the past history of railway track, freeways, cars etc it is probably what I should expect in your country

The electric supply is quite good here, now that five hurricanes in two years took down the bad poles and stripped all the trees down so they are no where near the power lines. Interesting to watch what 120 mph wind driven water can do to a tree. Stripped all the bark off of one 24 year old Ficus tree in the front yard as I watched and left only the limbs in the upper 20 feet of a 115 foot tall formosa pine tree. But that only makes all the lightning strikes from the afternoon thunderstorms more likely to hit the power lines near you and cause glitches and brief outages. Most people are either not home or know to leave their computers off that time of the day. Seti crunchers know to have a small UPS as part of their system. Seti systems crunched through it all until the last hurricane took down the main power lines coming out of the power plants. Sure was dark at night for a week.

When hurricanes take out Internet access for several weeks, I could always pack up the SetiQue system and drive to a location with working phone lines to get my small farm back crunching. With BOINC, I would have to move each system. Well, not as often now with the longer deadlines.

There is usually a good reason for everything. Looks like the real reason for our current complaint about Seti Enhanced Credit is that the developers did their academic calculations on what a WU credit should be and failed to take into account how hardware really works and how inefficient their old program was, giving the Seti 4.18 over inflated credits. And they are now trying to fix that, much to everyone's dismay.

Must be annoying to live in a supposedly modern country, and get such a bad electric supply. But then again looking at the past history of railway track, freeways, cars etc it is probably what I should expect in your country

The electric supply is quite good here, now that five hurricanes in two years took down the bad poles and stripped all the trees down so they are no where near the power lines. Interesting to watch what 120 mph wind driven water can do to a tree. Stripped all the bark off of one 24 year old Ficus tree in the front yard as I watched and left only the limbs in the upper 20 feet of a 115 foot tall formosa pine tree. But that only makes all the lightning strikes from the afternoon thunderstorms more likely to hit the power lines near you and cause glitches and brief outages. Most people are either not home or know to leave their computers off that time of the day. Seti crunchers know to have a small UPS as part of their system. Seti systems crunched through it all until the last hurricane took down the main power lines coming out of the power plants. Sure was dark at night for a week.

When hurricanes take out Internet access for several weeks, I could always pack up the SetiQue system and drive to a location with working phone lines to get my small farm back crunching. With BOINC, I would have to move each system. Well, not as often now with the longer deadlines.

There is usually a good reason for everything. Looks like the real reason for our current complaint about Seti Enhanced Credit is that the developers did their academic calculations on what a WU credit should be and failed to take into account how hardware really works and how inefficient their old program was, giving the Seti 4.18 over inflated credits. And they are now trying to fix that, much to everyone's dismay.

Lived in the Shetland Isles for nearly four years, they get 60mph winds 100 days a year and when the radar staion at the northern tip gat the highest recording a wind spead measureing equipment from the USA, in the first storm it went full scale and stuck there, whoops. The lighthouse there Muckle Fluga (hope I spelt that right) has an external door 150 ft abobe sea level and it is frequently bashed in by the waves. There very few trees on Shetland they cannot surveive.

The credits for enhanced are in line(approx) with 4.18 un-optimised, and if you can speed it up they will still grant the same not decrease with speed up as was/is the case with 4.18 optimised. If you use client that does fpop counting.

Andy

I dont understand the hole thing.
All will sort out by itself.

Mike

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

I suspect that they are hoping it blows over...

The point that needs to be realized is, that there are many different motivations for participants in these projects. Some are here strictly for the "science", and couldn't care LESS about credit, and they don't understand why it is granted in the first place. At the other end of the spectrum, there are people who are here solely for credit alone. I am here for both. And BOTH ends of the spectrum, and everyone in between, are ALL doing valid "science". If they weren't, their work would not be validated. But, if you take away the motivation for doing the science from a very large subset of crunchers, then they will either go somewhere else for their credits, or they will become totally disinterested in distributed computing altogether, and shut their computers off. Either way, it will end up ruining it for everyone. It does not matter to the science at all, if 30-60 credits are granted or if 160-230 credits are granted, as they were in Seti Beta. But it DOES hurt the science if a very large number of hosts are lost from the project. And it doesn't hurt any of the participants who don't care about credits, if more credit is granted. They don't care about them anyway. So, I just can't figure out why everyone who is supposedly here "solely for the science" is so opposed to granting more credit. If they don't care about credit, then fine. But don't insult and chase away those that DO care about credit.

People with an opposing view of mine should read Ayn Rand's book Atlas Shrugged. This is an EXCELLENT example of what happens when a very large subset of people depend upon a very small subset of people with greater ability and resources. There is nothing bad about people who have less ability and/or resources, but think about how little work would have actually been done for this project if it were not for people with very large farms of computers. One person with 50 computers can do the work of 50 people with ONE computer, and vice versa. But the thing to understand is that there would not BE people with even a dozen or more computers, if it were not for credit and competition. Alienate that subset of users, and push them away, and it would take many more YEARS to do the same amount of work. Sure, there would always be a few people left, but the project as a whole would greatly suffer without the top participants. This issue is not going to just blow over, regardless of how much anyone wishes it would.

Regards, Daniel.

Daniel,
It will matter to the projects, and to BOINC, if the level of credits/time for each project is not kept approximately the same. If not people who have no allegance to a project or are pure credit hogs, will switch from project to project, credit whore's or mercenaries in effect.

If the credits are kept approx. equal then the choice is open, knowing that it doesn't matter from a credits POV which project(s) they crunch for.

As most of the projects do not reveal their source code then unless they have someone like Akosf, over on Einstein, who can reverse engineer the code and is profficient in assembler, then the chances are most of the optimisation is going to be done here on Seti.

So the choice at the moment for most users, even if they do not like enhanced, is take a limited, probably less than a month, look over on Einstein and then come back here and use crunch3r's latest optimised app or ANOthers, if that appears and is faster.

I just cannot see any other options for the credit hogs, unless they work out which project/hardware and OS combunation gives them most bang for their buck.

Andy

Just out of interest why do you need the return immediately option?

I like to keep track of my machines as they also function as low access rate data servers for a process that runs on one of my older machines...
[snip]
This allows me to remotely check on them and detect system hangs and power glitches that get through each machines UPS. (This is South Florida after all.) I then know when my attention at home is needed and how important the outage is.

there are much easier and better ways of monitoring, you could set up a dynamic DNS account, so you can always access your site remotely, and run something like Nagios on a web server (prehaps on a random port, requiring authentication, so your ISP is happy), that'll give you a lot more detail, you could also set up secure remote access, so you can log into machines remotely, and use them over the internet, to reboot them or whatever

Setting up my own Internet server is not an option allowed or supported by my ISP, and I really don't care for another process running on each of my systems connecting to the Internet or that reports to some commercial web site. SetiQue was nice in that I could isolate all Internet contact to one system and not expose the others.

Nagios would allow you to do exactly that, and it puts virtually no additional load on PCs/servers, it's used by many companies for comercial/professional monitoring of servers

it's not really fair to use the SETI system in this way, putting additional load on the servers when there are better methods available

---

Want to search the BOINC Wiki, BOINCstats, or various BOINC forums from within firefox? Try the BOINC related Firefox Search Engines

I just cannot see any other options for the credit hogs, unless they work out which project/hardware and OS combunation gives them most bang for their buck.

Andy

YOU cannot see other options. But YOU are not the deciding official and maybe they will see and understand where we are coming from. Most of us WANT to crunch for Seti and not some other project. However, we are being pushed into a corner where many of us may decide to either switch or just quit crunching entirely. I have been with Seti since the early days, though I lost the password to my original account and had to make a new one. I crunched during the time when my machine might turn out 1 WU in 24 hours. I have no real desire to leave Seti for another project but the way things are headed now I may have to make that decision.

---

Just out of interest why do you need the return immediately option?

I like to keep track of my machines as they also function as low access rate data servers for a process that runs on one of my older machines, and I know (or did know) how long it takes each one of them to complete a WU. But I do not always have direct access to them or the local network.

I have the same need, but the servers are mission-critical, so I do not run anything on them that isn't strictly needed.

If they break, I don't eat.

I use Servers Alive for monitoring, it doesn't depend on the speed of a work unit.

I've also found UltraVNC to be quite handy.

---

I just cannot see any other options for the credit hogs, unless they work out which project/hardware and OS combunation gives them most bang for their buck.

Andy

YOU cannot see other options. But YOU are not the deciding official and maybe they will see and understand where we are coming from. Most of us WANT to crunch for Seti and not some other project. However, we are being pushed into a corner where many of us may decide to either switch or just quit crunching entirely. I have been with Seti since the early days, though I lost the password to my original account and had to make a new one. I crunched during the time when my machine might turn out 1 WU in 24 hours. I have no real desire to leave Seti for another project but the way things are headed now I may have to make that decision.

If you continue crunching for Seti you will on average get the same credits/time as any other project, using enhanced. If people are not happy with this situation, then it would probably be better for them to leave the BOINC community.

I don't think anybody should feel they are being pushed into a corner, why should they feel that way, just because ever since BOINC/Seti started the biggest, in capitals, has been the difference in claimed credits for different cpu's, OS's etc. etc. The main reason for this was the reliance on the benchmark figure for nearly everything important to us the users of the software. JM7 has fixed a lot of the promlems with his scheduler, you now get the correct amount of work in your cache, it ensures units don't miss deadlines, as long as the user leaves it alone.
The most important thing to be fixed, in the users mind's was the claimed credits, the Fpops calculation does that. Because the number of Fpops depends on the AR and that also decides what analysis is done or not done it makes the curve like a badly designed multiple ski jump. It has been noticed that the time taken and the credits claimed may not be as accurate as would be liked, but a least some of the developers know about it and I hope they have enough influence to get it adjusted.

There is no way, that Seti can go alone and offically base the credits on what users could claim using optimised apps and clients. They have to be approx equal to those granted on all the other projects. And on average I think they have achieved that.

And your comment on 24 hrs to crunch a unit is not needed try this computer result on Beta Beta resultid=779892if you want time to crunch a unit.

To all the nay sayers, next time there is an invitation to do a trail, come and join us there, your concerns will be listened to and if relevant will be acted upon before release into the wild. On the enhanced trial if credits is your thing you could have had a period of getting over 40/hour on a Pent M 1.86, without any apps or client being optimised.

Andy

Well Said WinterKnight!!

You get a + from me!

---

Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....

If E.T had been found by a cruncher using an optimised application. Would he have still been called a cheat.

---

It is sad to see people leaving the SETI Project over this issue of credits, yet I fully understand and support their decision.

I began crunching simply to test the results of my overclocking project, then I got involved with a team race and bought more boxes.

As I sit in my computer room (90 degrees F with the air conditioner running at full speed) I wonder if anybody at Berkeley understands those of us who have a competitive nature, those of us who spend (significant) amounts of money to acquire these worthless points.

My quandry: Should I spend more money to upgrade the air conditiner capacity on my home due to the heat output of the SETI farm, or should I turn off the farm, quit SETI and use the money to take a cruise with my wife?

I like SETI, I enjoy the quest for increasing my RAC, I think team races are awesome. I don't mind the utility bill, nor the high room temperatures. Unfortunately it looks like Berkeley does not care about any of the things that I like in this project.

If Berkeley is going to make a credit change in the SETI project, then I have one simple request; all I want is a uniform point system that gives the same points per hour regardless of which BOINC project I crunch on a specific machine. Don't make another project more valuable than another. One hour on my Dual Opteron should be worth the same number of points on every BOINC project.

If we are doing a wholesale revision of the credit system, then we should probably have a reset just like when we switched from Classic. Thus making points into an apples to apples comparison.

As for me, I have never crunched for any other project, just SETI and only SETI. This credit change is demoralizing and is doing great damage to our teams, something must be done to fix this damage.

I'm not certain what I will do yet. The cruise sounds fun, but I've crunched for SETI for so long, it would be hard to leave. I guess the decision is in the hands of Berkeley, they can give me my worthless points which cost them nothing, or I can save a ton of money. It's up to you Berkeley, call it extortion if you wish, but my worthless points have far more value to me than you appear to understand.

---

It's not too many computers, it's a lack of circuit breakers for this room. But we can fix it :)

To all the nay sayers, next time there is an invitation to do a trail, come and join us there, your concerns will be listened to and if relevant will be acted upon before release into the wild. On the enhanced trial if credits is your thing you could have had a period of getting over 40/hour on a Pent M 1.86, without any apps or client being optimised.

Andy

When I looked at the beta there were no credits being offered, and since I'm another credit monger I walked away. No credit = no participation

If they wanted participation they should have offered me credit equal to my rac for that machine during the beta period. I would have gladly participated.

I don't expect much for my contributions, just these silly worthless points.

---

It's not too many computers, it's a lack of circuit breakers for this room. But we can fix it :)

I have not see the following posted here yet so a valid comparison can be made.

Number of FLOP counts for:

The Reference Unit ran on the stock 4.18 application that earned 32 credits.
A typical Work Unit ran on the stock 4.18 application that earned 24 credits.

The same two WU's ran on an optimized application. (Should be the same FLOP.)

The same two WU's ran on the Enhanced 5.12 application. (If possible.)

Several typical Enhanced WU's ran on the 5.12 Enhanced application earning 62.

Then we can compare the actual work performed in each case with the credit granted.

If Berkeley is going to make a credit change in the SETI project, then I have one simple request; all I want is a uniform point system that gives the same points per hour regardless of which BOINC project I crunch on a specific machine. Don't make another project more valuable than another. One hour on my Dual Opteron should be worth the same number of points on every BOINC project.

That is exactly what they have just done, and those used to getting huge amounts of credits per hour are now finding that the playing field has been leveled & their optimised applications don't give them the advantage they had before (at least not yet anyway).

If we are doing a wholesale revision of the credit system, then we should probably have a reset just like when we switched from Classic. Thus making points into an apples to apples comparison.

But it's not a wholesale revision as such, just fixing up something that people have been carrying on about for the last couple of years or so. Of course now it gives others something else to carry on about.

This credit change is demoralizing and is doing great damage to our teams, something must be done to fix this damage.

Damaging teams?
Everyone is doing the same work & so will get the same credit. Those that have faster machines will get more credit per hour. Tose that have optimised clients will get more credit per hour than those that don't. Just not as much as they are used to.

It's up to you Berkeley, call it extortion if you wish, but my worthless points have far more value to me than you appear to understand.

Which would make me think you really need that cruise. Take a break & get some perspective on life.

---

Grant
Darwin NT

It is sad to see people leaving the SETI Project over this issue of credits, yet I fully understand and support their decision.

I began crunching simply to test the results of my overclocking project, then I got involved with a team race and bought more boxes.

As I sit in my computer room (90 degrees F with the air conditioner running at full speed) I wonder if anybody at Berkeley understands those of us who have a competitive nature, those of us who spend (significant) amounts of money to acquire these worthless points.

My quandry: Should I spend more money to upgrade the air conditiner capacity on my home due to the heat output of the SETI farm, or should I turn off the farm, quit SETI and use the money to take a cruise with my wife?

I like SETI, I enjoy the quest for increasing my RAC, I think team races are awesome. I don't mind the utility bill, nor the high room temperatures. Unfortunately it looks like Berkeley does not care about any of the things that I like in this project.

If Berkeley is going to make a credit change in the SETI project, then I have one simple request; all I want is a uniform point system that gives the same points per hour regardless of which BOINC project I crunch on a specific machine. Don't make another project more valuable than another. One hour on my Dual Opteron should be worth the same number of points on every BOINC project.

If we are doing a wholesale revision of the credit system, then we should probably have a reset just like when we switched from Classic. Thus making points into an apples to apples comparison.

As for me, I have never crunched for any other project, just SETI and only SETI. This credit change is demoralizing and is doing great damage to our teams, something must be done to fix this damage.

I'm not certain what I will do yet. The cruise sounds fun, but I've crunched for SETI for so long, it would be hard to leave. I guess the decision is in the hands of Berkeley, they can give me my worthless points which cost them nothing, or I can save a ton of money. It's up to you Berkeley, call it extortion if you wish, but my worthless points have far more value to me than you appear to understand.

Isn't this para, at odds with everything else you said, The Fpops method has been calibrated to claim and grant approximately equal credits with all other projects. The other projects it must be pointed out set their credit calculations to be approximately equal to Seti as Seti was the first.
If Seti was to grant more credits/time as most of the nay sayers seem to want then the other projects would be totally free to grant any credits they wanted, probably leapfrogging Seti and in the end we would be demanding 1 * 10^n in advance before we would even download a unit.

This issue is not going to just blow over, regardless of how much anyone wishes it would.

Yes it will. People will stay or people will leave, life will go on.

---

Grant
Darwin NT

Most of us WANT to crunch for Seti and not some other project.

Then it's simple- keep crunching.

I have no real desire to leave Seti for another project but the way things are headed now I may have to make that decision.

If you don't want to leave then don't. If you want to, then do so.
It's up to you.

---

Grant
Darwin NT