If It takes 9hrs or more for to do a WU(To say nothing of 30-51hr or longer WUs), Then I may as well do EinsteinBoinc instead as SetiBoinc will be taking too much time for Me to be comfortable with. As I won't feel like I'm helping any, But then I don't have a cray Super computer. Unless someone makes an Optimized app for the New WUs of course.

This will be a major issue for many people, especially for those that have built farms with old discarded systems. But, that is the great advantage of Boinc. These otherwise wasted CPU power can hopefully be redirected to other worthy projects with less intensive analysis requirements.

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Boinc V7.2.42
Win7 i5 3.33G 4GB, GTX470

Please ignore posting error

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Boinc V7.2.42
Win7 i5 3.33G 4GB, GTX470

I keep seeing "profit" mentioned, and this isn't the right thread for it, but other than SHOFT or w/e it was called, ARE there any BOINC projects that are not non-profit? I keep hearing that the protein folding ones "will make money from the drugs produced", but even in that case, I believe the projects themselves are university-driven, pure-research, with the results available to anyone. Any profits, other than maybe licensing fees that went back to the university, would go to whoever made and sold the drugs, which I don't have a problem with, as they're the ones who would invest their money in testing, production, marketing, etc., well after the research points out which ones are worth looking into. If that tenuous a connection is enough to be "for profit", then SETI is for profit - because if we find a signal, _someone_ is going to make money selling t-shirts with "you are here - they are there" skymaps... and they might even license (and pay for the use of) the SETI@HOME logo.

I agree. My thought is this. A cure for AIDS is found. The company uses information from one of the projects and makes $100 million. Saving 40 million peoples lives. That is OK with me.

The only thing I hope is that they pump some money into these projects so they can continue to enrich man kind.

Poorboy made a good point you run say 30hr work units and dont get validated or no credit participants are going to complain. I already am complaining and havent even run the program. I donate cpu time, I donate money, and support my team to crunch for seti@home but 20/30hr work units thats forcing participants into a corner leave or stay. I cant beleive this. I dont think this is about the science no way. Sure you have a better apllication but it took till merge to figure out. If you dont get validated unit or credit after 30hrs thats 30hrs of electricity $$$ down the drain.

Then don't crunch. Either you understand the math and science behind the project or you don't. I have some PII running and they are also cruching on 2 other projects. I probably never get credit for any chrunging they do on seti. I am not worried about it. If you are here for credits you need to get a life, really. The credits are fun and all that, but try to figure out what is really important about these projects. It ain't you, and it ain't me, and it definitly isn't the credits. Get over it.

I must say that you think a lot like me, Tom.

I'm not in this for credits. I'm letting my computers chrunch these workunits on their idle time, and that costs me close to nothing. Why should I care about credits? I know I'm helping out with something good, and I like that.

I don't know if I lost any credits during the last outage. I haven't checked, and I wont. I don't care. If it's lost it's lost. I don't want the staff here use time on granting me credits I don't need when they can do much more usefull stuff.

And also, I don't care if anyone is making profit over this. If my computer discovers the cure for aids, and someone makes money on that cure, that's OK by me if it saves lives! I would then be part of saving someones, or maybe a lot of peoples lives! I'm glad to be given this opportunity!

If the people making the cure was unable to make money on it, they probably wouldn't do it. Therefor it's OK that they do. And if they had to buy supercomputers to do this work so they could make money on it, the cure would be a lot more expencive, and people needing it in the third world couldn't afford it.

I repeat: I'm not in this for credits, and I don't care if somebody is making money on it. The important thing is to get the work done, and I can help with my computers, and it costs me nothing!

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Greetings from Norway.
Crunching is fun!

If It takes 9hrs or more for to do a WU(To say nothing of 30-51hr or longer WUs), Then I may as well do EinsteinBoinc instead as SetiBoinc will be taking too much time for Me to be comfortable with. As I won't feel like I'm helping any, But then I don't have a cray Super computer. Unless someone makes an Optimized app for the New WUs of course.

This will be a major issue for many people, especially for those that have built farms with old discarded systems. But, that is the great advantage of Boinc. These otherwise wasted CPU power can hopefully be redirected to other worthy projects with less intensive analysis requirements.

Not to mention some teams, PC Perspective has 940 users last I looked, Of that I think 128 are active(Me included) and some like the Uncle B's are all using optimized apps and clients, They may not like being only able to do only around 3 WU per week, If Seti wants this then fine people will leave and Seti will suffer. I don't think the extra science is a bad idea and others may say the same thing, But the time spent may not be seen as worthwhile here in the real world outside of Berkley.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

If It takes 9hrs or more for to do a WU(To say nothing of 30-51hr or longer WUs), Then I may as well do EinsteinBoinc instead as SetiBoinc will be taking too much time for Me to be comfortable with. As I won't feel like I'm helping any, But then I don't have a cray Super computer. Unless someone makes an Optimized app for the New WUs of course.

This will be a major issue for many people, especially for those that have built farms with old discarded systems. But, that is the great advantage of Boinc. These otherwise wasted CPU power can hopefully be redirected to other worthy projects with less intensive analysis requirements.

Not to mention some teams, PC Perspective has 940 users last I looked, Of that I think 128 are active(Me included) and some like the Uncle B's are all using optimized apps and clients, They may not like being only able to do only around 3 WU per week, If Seti wants this then fine people will leave and Seti will suffer. I don't think the extra science is a bad idea and others may say the same thing, But the time spent may not be seen as worthwhile here in the real world outside of Berkley.

Why not? You are getting the exact same amount of credits per hour of chrunching. If you chrunch 30 workunits a week or three, shouldn't matter??

---

Greetings from Norway.
Crunching is fun!

I keep seeing "profit" mentioned, and this isn't the right thread for it, but other than SHOFT or w/e it was called, ARE there any BOINC projects that are not non-profit? I keep hearing that the protein folding ones "will make money from the drugs produced", but even in that case, I believe the projects themselves are university-driven, pure-research, with the results available to anyone. Any profits, other than maybe licensing fees that went back to the university, would go to whoever made and sold the drugs, which I don't have a problem with, as they're the ones who would invest their money in testing, production, marketing, etc., well after the research points out which ones are worth looking into. If that tenuous a connection is enough to be "for profit", then SETI is for profit - because if we find a signal, _someone_ is going to make money selling t-shirts with "you are here - they are there" skymaps... and they might even license (and pay for the use of) the SETI@HOME logo.

I agree. My thought is this. A cure for AIDS is found. The company uses information from one of the projects and makes $100 million. Saving 40 million peoples lives. That is OK with me.


The only thing I hope is that they pump some money into these projects so they can continue to enrich man kind.

Poorboy made a good point you run say 30hr work units and dont get validated or no credit participants are going to complain. I already am complaining and havent even run the program. I donate cpu time, I donate money, and support my team to crunch for seti@home but 20/30hr work units thats forcing participants into a corner leave or stay. I cant beleive this. I dont think this is about the science no way. Sure you have a better apllication but it took till merge to figure out. If you dont get validated unit or credit after 30hrs thats 30hrs of electricity $$$ down the drain.

Then don't crunch. Either you understand the math and science behind the project or you don't. I have some PII running and they are also cruching on 2 other projects. I probably never get credit for any chrunging they do on seti. I am not worried about it. If you are here for credits you need to get a life, really. The credits are fun and all that, but try to figure out what is really important about these projects. It ain't you, and it ain't me, and it definitly isn't the credits. Get over it.

I must say that you think a lot like me, Tom.

I'm not in this for credits. I'm letting my computers chrunch these workunits on their idle time, and that costs me close to nothing. Why should I care about credits? I know I'm helping out with something good, and I like that.

I don't know if I lost any credits during the last outage. I haven't checked, and I wont. I don't care. If it's lost it's lost. I don't want the staff here use time on granting me credits I don't need when they can do much more usefull stuff.

And also, I don't care if anyone is making profit over this. If my computer discovers the cure for aids, and someone makes money on that cure, that's OK by me if it saves lives! I would then be part of saving someones, or maybe a lot of peoples lives! I'm glad to be given this opportunity!

If the people making the cure was unable to make money on it, they probably wouldn't do it. Therefor it's OK that they do. And if they had to buy supercomputers to do this work so they could make money on it, the cure would be a lot more expensive, and people needing it in the third world couldn't afford it.

I repeat: I'm not in this for credits, and I don't care if somebody is making money on it. The important thing is to get the work done, and I can help with my computers, and it costs me nothing!

Competition is healthy to Me and So long as Seti gets what they want I'm happy, Then the Credit is fine as I do It for free, If I do more than someone else in the team I'm i n then I move up and past that person and My team will or might move past another team. Some here almost make the word competition sound like a dirty word, Much like Capitalism is under communism. But then Competition is what goes on in life.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Though I applaud the idea of the improved sensitivity, I am disturbed by the increased work unit times. When my "new" computer is completed I'm anticipating the completion of 16-18 work units a day between the two dual processor computers using optimized clients. I'll admit that they're not fast when compared to many new computers but I think 8 to 10 work units a day from a couple of P3 computers is pretty good.

Try and forget Workunits. We use credits now, we don't count n units per day, it is credits per day. A given system will get the same credits per day regardless of the length of the work unit.

There's a couple things that bother me about the new scheme. The first is that the people at berkeley seem to have become more concerned with the connection rate than the potential loss of data. The longer a computer waits to report completed units the greater the chance of the loss of that data.

I cannot see where you get the idea that connection rates have anything to do with it?

As for data loss, for the science it doesn't matter, BOINC takes care of re-sending work that's needed automatically. If you are referring to your computers not being able to accurately run 10 or 20 hours or hold data files for a few days without corrupting the result, then that is a situation you need to address yourself.

Then there's the difference in computational capabilities of the computers processing the data. The problem I see here is that if a work unit is given to my computer and three faster computers a quorum will have been reached days before my computer completes it's work unit. My dual P3 700 averaged just over six hours per work unit using an optimized standard seti app. That would mean sixty hours to run a work unit using the enhanced seti app. Some of the newer computers complete work units using the standard seti app in an hour or less. This means they would complete work units in ten hours or less. Taking this into account, there's a very good chance that there is going to be a major increase in the number of instances where a quorum is reached and credit is granted before my computer completes it's work units. Granted, it happens from time to time using the current seti app but most of the time my computer's time counts toward the calculation of the credit granted. With the enhanced client the majority of the work units will reach a quorum before my computer completes a unit. This means that for most units the time spent processing the data will be wasted time. It's as if those running seti are using the project to push people toward newer and faster computers.

The same computational differences exist now. A system that averages 1 hr per WU will generally beat a system that takes 1:30. Likewise with enhanced SETI the 1ht system will take say 10hrs and the 1:30 system 18 hrs, the relationship remains constant.

IMO, there is no such thing as wasted work, 4 results with a quorum of 3 is the specification of the system.

Though seti is my preferred distributed computing project, I see a point in the near future where I'll be forced to make a tough decision. Do I continue processing work units for a project where my computer's time isn't making a real contribution or do I find a project where it can?

Your system is already "wasting" 1/4 of it's time (actually 3/4 if you accept that the vast majority of results match, making the quorum of 3 unnecessary).

I'll admit that there's a number of other BOINC projects out there but many are using the free processing capabilities provided by the BOINC platform for what will ultimately prove to be very profitable. The protein related projects for example will eventually yield results leading to new drugs which will make countless billion for the pharmaceutical companies. Though I'd like to see a cure for cancer and other diseases, I'm not willing to provide free computing power to a project which will ultimately turn my donation into a profit. Seti is one of the few projects motivated by the true search for knowledge rather than potential profit.

Agreed, I do not run any project that has a primary motive of profit.

I admit that my computer hasn't run any work for a few weeks. I'm waiting for parts to do a little reorganization and to assemble the second computer. I'll be up and running once the 3ware controller and additional 1GB of ram arrive.

Now where did I put that fire-resistant suit...

>
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Poorboy made a good point you run say 30hr work units and dont get validated or no credit participants are going to complain. I already am complaining and havent even run the program. I donate cpu time, I donate money, and support my team to crunch for seti@home but 20/30hr work units thats forcing participants into a corner leave or stay. I cant beleive this. I dont think this is about the science no way. Sure you have a better apllication but it took till merge to figure out. If you dont get validated unit or credit after 30hrs thats 30hrs of electricity $$$ down the drain.

If It takes 9hrs or more for to do a WU(To say nothing of 30-51hr or longer WUs), Then I may as well do EinsteinBoinc instead as SetiBoinc will be taking too much time for Me to be comfortable with. As I won't feel like I'm helping any, But then I don't have a cray Super computer. Unless someone makes an Optimized app for the New WUs of course.

You do know that you could easely put more than 2,5 pages to scroll in the qoutescreen?

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If It takes 9hrs or more for to do a WU(To say nothing of 30-51hr or longer WUs), Then I may as well do EinsteinBoinc instead as SetiBoinc will be taking too much time for Me to be comfortable with. As I won't feel like I'm helping any, But then I don't have a cray Super computer. Unless someone makes an Optimized app for the New WUs of course.

This will be a major issue for many people, especially for those that have built farms with old discarded systems. But, that is the great advantage of Boinc. These otherwise wasted CPU power can hopefully be redirected to other worthy projects with less intensive analysis requirements.

Not to mention some teams, PC Perspective has 940 users last I looked, Of that I think 128 are active(Me included) and some like the Uncle B's are all using optimized apps and clients, They may not like being only able to do only around 3 WU per week, If Seti wants this then fine people will leave and Seti will suffer. I don't think the extra science is a bad idea and others may say the same thing, But the time spent may not be seen as worthwhile here in the real world outside of Berkley.

Why not? You are getting the exact same amount of credits per hour of chrunching. If you crunch 30 workunits a week or three, shouldn't matter??

I think It will matter, So Seti will get part of what they want and lose a lot in the end. From what I've read some have said the credits will not increase. Oh and the Uncle B's have 34 Hosts with a few of them being dual core cpus, So far that is.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

And while I am here , its easy to state that once there were hundreds of thousends of crunchers who did not had a problem with 30 hours per wu, in the early days.;-)

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Though I applaud the idea of the improved sensitivity, I am disturbed by the increased work unit times. When my "new" computer is completed I'm anticipating the completion of 16-18 work units a day between the two dual processor computers using optimized clients. I'll admit that they're not fast when compared to many new computers but I think 8 to 10 work units a day from a couple of P3 computers is pretty good.

Try and forget Workunits. We use credits now, we don't count n units per day, it is credits per day. A given system will get the same credits per day regardless of the length of the work unit.


>
>
Poorboy made a good point you run say 30hr work units and dont get validated or no credit participants are going to complain. I already am complaining and havent even run the program. I donate cpu time, I donate money, and support my team to crunch for seti@home but 20/30hr work units thats forcing participants into a corner leave or stay. I cant beleive this. I dont think this is about the science no way. Sure you have a better apllication but it took till merge to figure out. If you dont get validated unit or credit after 30hrs thats 30hrs of electricity $$$ down the drain.

If It takes 9hrs or more for to do a WU(To say nothing of 30-51hr or longer WUs), Then I may as well do EinsteinBoinc instead as SetiBoinc will be taking too much time for Me to be comfortable with. As I won't feel like I'm helping any, But then I don't have a cray Super computer. Unless someone makes an Optimized app for the New WUs of course.

You do know that you could easely put more than 2,5 pages to scroll in the qoutescreen?

Is this better?

So I am complaining too and I haven't run the new app either.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

I think It will matter, So Seti will get part of what they want and lose a lot in the end. From what I've read some have said the credits will not increase. Oh and the Uncle B's have 34 Hosts with a few of them being dual core cpus, So far that is.

Can you point to someone who's said that? Credits are based on work done, and since these are doing more work (which is what takes more time), they'll be giving more credit.

MJ

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One page to scroll is an improvement.:-)

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I think It will matter, So Seti will get part of what they want and lose a lot in the end. From what I've read some have said the credits will not increase. Oh and the Uncle B's have 34 Hosts with a few of them being dual core cpus, So far that is.

Can you point to someone who's said that? Credits are based on work done, and since these are doing more work (which is what takes more time), they'll be giving more credit.

MJ

If I remember where I saw It, sure, Until then I can't be of any help, But then I've heard credit will go up by 4x too, So the real answer is not something that I know of right now. In any case 9-51 hours or more is a bit much, Einstein on this PC would take less than 4 hours per WU, So I don't see how they can be equal when the times won't be.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

30 hours or 30 minutes p/w the competition is the same, exept for the time freed for just have to look every 30 hours sted of half.:-)

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And while I am here , its easy to state that once there were hundreds of thousends of crunchers who did not had a problem with 30 hours per wu, in the early days.;-)

Never mind 30 hours, my first work units on a 100MHz laptop using the screensaver took upwards of 96 hours. One WU per week was uusual.

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30 hours or 30 minutes p/w the competition is the same, exept for the time freed for just have to look every 30 hours sted of half.:-)

huh?

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

The credit system for Seti is the same as it is for all Boinc projects. If you do several projects, as I do, you will notice only a small difference in the credits received from each for a given time period.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that this is going to change just because the app takes longer to crunch a work unit.
This what newly migrated Classic users don't get when they want to convert old or new credits. The actual credits have no relevance to the WU itself. You receive credits based on the time you, and others that did the same unit, took to crunch it.

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Boinc V7.2.42
Win7 i5 3.33G 4GB, GTX470

And also, I don't care if anyone is making profit over this. If my computer discovers the cure for aids, and someone makes money on that cure, that's OK by me if it saves lives! I would then be part of saving someones, or maybe a lot of peoples lives! I'm glad to be given this opportunity!

If the people making the cure was unable to make money on it, they probably wouldn't do it. Therefor it's OK that they do. And if they had to buy supercomputers to do this work so they could make money on it, the cure would be a lot more expencive, and people needing it in the third world couldn't afford it.

[off topic reply]
I think you have things a little confused. Drug companies aren't humanitarian organizations. They're corporations motivated by profit. Look at the drug Taxol.

It is very unlikely that any CURES would result from the protein related projects. Possibly vaccines to prevent a disease or more likely maintenance drugs to halt a disease's progression. When compared with a maintenance drug there's no real money in a cure. When these drugs are produced don't expect the products to reach the market at a price affordable for common people, much less those in third world nations. Just look at the cost of common AIDS maintenance drugs.
[/off topic reply]

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Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws.
Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

The credit system for Seti is the same as it is for all Boinc projects. If you do several projects, as I do, you will notice only a small difference in the credits received from each for a given time period.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that this is going to change just because the app takes longer to crunch a work unit.
This what newly migrated Classic users don't get when they want to convert old or new credits. The actual credits have no relevance to the WU itself. You receive credits based on the time you, and others that did the same unit, took to crunch it.

Well You don't crunch a Credit, You crunch a WU, That is what I was saying in that instance. And the extra time bothers Me, A lot, As I'd like to see progress, Not going slower than a snail.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

From what I've read some have said the credits will not increase. Oh and the Uncle B's have 34 Hosts with a few of them being dual core cpus, So far that is.

The credit will not increase when you think cresits per hour of work, but of course it will increase per workunit if the units takes longer to chrunch. The credits are calculated from time used, not the number of chrunched units!

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Greetings from Norway.
Crunching is fun!