I cant't believe that people are upset about open sourse software being used for a comercial endevour!

I don't think anyone is upset about them using it comercially. After all Red Hat develops and sells services based off of Linux... But Red Hat makes no claim that Linux is their own invention. All they do is develop their own applications and sell support for the system.

Shoft on the other hand, has given no credit to developers of the BOINC project, copied/pasted their entire web site, and points users to places like BOINC.dk for support. None of which is illegal, but it seems kinda' slimy to me.

On a side note, I don't think what they are proposing would actually work. Because of the nature of financial applications there are a few problems I see.

+ The downloaded app would have to be quite large to encompass all the needed functions, there's also a chance it would have to change frequently

+ The next set of calculations is often dependant on the prior sets results for its input

+ Both the data to be worked with and instructions for what to do have to be sent (work is not just split off, but it is split and has more data added)

+ Results have to be re-assembled at the server once things are done

+ Even if no quorum is needed (ie each WU is only sent out once) sometimes it takes a long time to return results, if they are ever returned at all... And with no quorum, who's to say that the answers are even close to right?

All these things work to make the system slower and slower. That and the fact that their "733t 5k'115" seem to be such that I wouldn't trust them to make me a desktop calculator application.

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7,049 S@H Classic Credits

When source code is released, it may be copyrighted (even if open source), but by deleting the copyright notice in the source, it's therefore been changed and the copyright doesn't apply! Even a one line code change like adding "i=i;" indicates modified code and is not covered by the original copyright.

A one-line change does not turn a copyrighted work into a new work not covered by copyright.

The number I've usually heard is 20% -- and exactly what constitutes a 20% change is something the lawyers would argue incessantly.

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A one-line change does not turn a copyrighted work into a new work not covered by copyright.

The number I've usually heard is 20% -- and exactly what constitutes a 20% change is something the lawyers would argue incessantly.

And that's exactly why on the one application I did where there was a real risk of someone taking the source code (exposed but not open source), I broke it up into many small pieces, each copyrighted... making enough changes to each of the pieces to escape the copyright would almost guarantee that it wouldn't work any more, and it would be quicker to rewrite from scratch. :-)

The real problem is that copyrights and patents and such are "national", except for whatever treaty exists elsewhere. Before computers, and the internet, that was adequate. Now, it isn't, but there isn't a GOOD fix for the problem.

As for Shoft... I don't know if anything they are doing is illegal, and I don't understand enough to say it's definitely unethical, although it smells awfully fishy. I certainly wouldn't recommend anybody attach to it. If they're violating any BOINC licenses, that'll be up to UCB to determine and enforce.

- steal the texts from other pages without notice and comment out what might give you away - except of making your own pages or be smart enough to not comment out but delete the treacherous parts. That doesn't look like real pros in programming who can handle such a project

Well, if you go to their top-users page etc. and press "view source" you'll at least see the original author tags from the BOINC CVS:




However, I agree that they could at minumum mention the Berkeley dev group and the BOINC team somewhere... They'll only hurt themselves (through discussions like this one) by not doing so.

- steal bandwidth from another community (BOINC.dk) because you do not want to pay an own server/webpsace. In this case a commercial user misuses a non-profit user's resources, and that is not really friendly.

If you are talking about the download network used for add-ons, then this service is provided by BOINC.dk (and a lot of helpfull people) to the BOINC community - including any BOINC community that may form around commercial BOINC projects.
All BOINC projects have a plugin to access the BOINC.dk add-on list, like this on SETI.

Question : Does Shoft@home belong to the Boinc Community ?

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Do you want to get banned for 31 years and your account & credits deleted at a Boinc project ? Predictor@home is your best choice.

I believe that the bottom line should be this:

I'm not going to allow MY PC to do all the work so that someone else can make money without reimbursing me for my work. If they're going to make money on my work, and not pay me for my work, screw 'em....

The more I read this discussion, the more I dislike "shaft". They would be giving us all the "shaft" for crunching whatever WUs they send to us. I believe that the word should be spread to ALL BOINC communities.... >:-| |-:

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

[quote]I believe that the bottom line should be this:

I'm not going to allow MY PC to do all the work so that someone else can make money without reimbursing me for my work. If they're going to make money on my work, and not pay me for my work, screw 'em....

The more I read this discussion, the more I dislike "shaft". They would be giving us all the "shaft" for crunching whatever WUs they send to us. I believe that the word should be spread to ALL BOINC communities.... >:-| |-:

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[quote][quote]I believe that the bottom line should be this:

I'm not going to allow MY PC to do all the work so that someone else can make money without reimbursing me for my work. If they're going to make money on my work, and not pay me for my work, screw 'em....

The more I read this discussion, the more I dislike "shaft". They would be giving us all the "shaft" for crunching whatever WUs they send to us. I believe that the word should be spread to ALL BOINC communities.... >:-| |-::-) (-:

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

The point is part of the boinc licencing says it's not allowed to be used for a commercial reason (or so I've been told).
Anyway..linux and apache are made by the people that sell them (generally).

Reality is only a concept for some. Linux and Apache are not being developed by the folks that "sell them". I've never paid for either, but have been used both in a "for Profit" system!

That's what "open source" means. Folks like redhat add stuff to make it unique, and provide a CD (at cost + profit). (they make the profit)

The folks at UCB seem to have missed the whole concept of "open source". Once the source is changed, (even one file in a build that takes 100 files), it's different, and the CR is lost...

Adding a CR or EULA on open source is a joke! "I put this code in the public domain" is the basic concept of "open source".. That's why it's "open source"!

That's also why no project (that I know of) other than seti, will release source code to their cruncher.

The Russian folks that are using Boinc for comercial projects is only the beginning.. There will be more if Bonic proves to be stable. A simple Google of "Boinc" might soon provide many projects that are "for profit" as those run by non profits...

Open source is a "two edged sword"....

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The folks at UCB seem to have missed the whole concept of "open source". Once the source is changed, (even one file in a build that takes 100 files), it's different, and the CR is lost...

Erhm, the code is licensed using LGPL - that means the copyright has already been "lost"; at least in the sense that anyone can take the code and use it for their own purpose, modify it, even sell the code etc. (why anyone would buy code that is available for free beats me, but it happens from time to time...)
The only real condition stated in the license is that if you modify the code you should make the changed version available as LGPL. In this way useful modifications can travel back to the original project.

But it seems that Shoft didn't make any changes - except commenting out a few things on the webpages. Still a link to BOINC would seem reasonable...

Adding a CR or EULA on open source is a joke! "I put this code in the public domain" is the basic concept of "open source".. That's why it's "open source"!

I don't think so (we may differ in this area though). By default the code is covered by copyright from the owner. The owner then states a special case saying: "If you follow this license I will allow you to use and modify the code". In other words if a company uses/modifies the code and does not follow the license they will be facing the original copyright laws (not stuff from the license since they never agreed to it).
So "opensourcing" stuff isn't adding a CR but removing it if certain things are in place. Without those licenses it would be a nightmare to use other people's code in a project.

Overclock to the maximum and get the maximum amount of errors....

lllooooOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLllll!

That'S great, at least for loosening up a little after all these serious comments. But I'm not the destructive kind, I'll just leave them alone. But still, a real laugh. Thank you, I just got to work and that was a nice one for a start.

Regards,

Christoph

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"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." R.M. Nixon

I just found out about Shoft. This is the online demo for a product that they are selling to clients as their own. There is no mention of BOINC or anything like it.

I just went to the link you provided. And right on their home page is the "Powered by BOINC" logo and link to http://boinc.berkeley.edu/. Their link to "Download Client" is to boinc.berkeley.edu also. This may be new since the thread was opened but they do acknowledge BOINC.

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Their link to "Download Client" is to boinc.berkeley.edu also. This may be new since the thread was opened but they do acknowledge BOINC.
==========

I don't think that was there until recently. Who knows, maybe their reading this thread and trying to do things right ... ???

They have no Forum as of yet, and the greater majority of people running the Project are Russian or from country's around there. So even if they did have a Forum I don't know how much conversing would be going on if they don't speak English or you don't speak Russian ... :P

I just found out about Shoft. This is the online demo for a product that they are selling to clients as their own. There is no mention of BOINC or anything like it.

I just went to the link you provided. And right on their home page is the "Powered by BOINC" logo and link to http://boinc.berkeley.edu/. Their link to "Download Client" is to boinc.berkeley.edu also. This may be new since the thread was opened but they do acknowledge BOINC.

This link is new.
Yesterday, it didn't exist.

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Do you want to get banned for 31 years and your account & credits deleted at a Boinc project ? Predictor@home is your best choice.

Overclock to the maximum and get the maximum amount of errors....

lllooooOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLllll!

That'S great, at least for loosening up a little after all these serious comments. But I'm not the destructive kind, I'll just leave them alone. But still, a real laugh. Thank you, I just got to work and that was a nice one for a start.

Regards,

Christoph

I'm happy to be of service, Christoph. I'm glad you started your work day on a high note.... >:-) (-:

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

[quote]

Neil, here's how to get you sig to work:

[ url=http://www.boincsynergy.com][ img]http://www.boincsynergy.com/images/stats/comb-950.jpg[/img][/url] When you type it in leave out the spaces in the part [ url....] and [ img....]. I put the spaces in so the code would display. This will be the result:

Hope it helps.... >:-) (-:

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Question : Does Shoft@home belong to the Boinc Community ?

Not really, but if enoughf were interested I am sure that they would allow teams, xml stat's, Ect. but would not count on it. I am sure that most teams would not count the credit from comercial places. We are in this for the SCIENCE, not money.

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Pizza@Home Rays Place Rays place Forums

I think the people at Berkeley should have a closer look. It would also be interesting to see if the client really is the same as the one distributed by Berkeley. After all it might be a project where they do collect user addresses and data and the client might turn out to be a fraud machinery for phishing, scamming, spamming, collecting privacy data (PINs, TANs, passwords, credit cards numbers...) and whatever you like. If it ran some application though people might not even notice as they generously grant it network access and allow it to send data to the internet.

If a work is derived from a GPL licensed work then they're also obliged to provide the source code when asked for to anyone.

The GPL does also allow them to charge to recoup the costs of distribution etc.

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[quote][quote]

Neil, here's how to get you sig to work:

[ url=http://www.boincsynergy.com][ img]http://www.boincsynergy.com/images/stats/comb-950.jpg[/img][/url] When you type it in leave out the spaces in the part [ url....] and [ img....]. I put the spaces in so the code would display. This will be the result:

Hope it helps.... >:-) (-::-) (-:

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

Of course it would be nice if they paid crunchers for the work they did, but I'd even consider crunching if they donated a percentage of profits to the BOINC project for further development. If they're just in it for themselves they can get stuffed.

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Raithmir's SPARC64/UltraSPARC Linux Builds
http://www.kulthea.net/boinc/