ES 99 wrote:

Interesting thinking.

Government Schools may get worse. Therefore...

Interesting thinking. I tell you what actually happens where this has been done and you replace 'will' with 'may'.

Screw those who wish to succeed.

Nope, it seems that you support screwing everyone.

As I have said repeatedly: It is The Left's 'Thinking', and 'Solutions, which are the problem.

As I have said, where The Right's solutions have been put into practice, misery and inequality have ensued.

Regarding Teachers Unions, from this 10000% Pro-Union person:

Many have degenerated into only Job Security/Pay Raise Unions. Not Pro-Student.

That is the sad fact.

That is a lie. It is not a fact. This coming from someone who has been in more than one teacher's union and knows the lies that are told about us by those with an agenda. You should do some actual thinking and stop swallowing wholesale the BS because you like the sound of it so much.

Highly Educated, does not, and never has, meant Ethical.

However, people generally go into teaching because they are ethical. Those that aren't ethical and are highly educated will go elsewhere to a job with more money and more status and less people lining up to blame the ills of society on you. One where you won't constantly be called greedy for wanting to be paid on level that matches the importance and skill of your profession. (BTW, I don't know what you think the average teacher earns, but if the unions are working so hard to makes us rich they are doing a sh*t job of it.)

Very much agree with parts, and disagree with other parts.

Unfortunately, locally, the rhetoric coming from the mouths of the union when speaking to the press, seems to be far more about insuring that the flow of dollars to the union executives is maximized, rather than any genuine concern for the pupils. There is some reason to believe this. In the recent contract negotiation the School Board told the Union how much additional money was available. They were given an option to hold pay and spend the rest of the money on supplies. That was rejected. They also were given the option to reduce class size. That was rejected. IIRC there was a news report that calculated the $ the union would have gotten from hiring the additional teachers to lower the class size was not as much as the $ that raising the base salary would provide the union. We live in a capitalistic society.

As to what happens to government schools ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasadena_Unified_School_District
Went from being able to take high school classes for credit taught at Caltech by their faculty, to not so good but lots of very expensive private schools. Yes, there is good education available, but your taxes don't pay for it anymore, so if you aren't independently wealthy, you can't get a good education!

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Ouch! 44 schools & 180 officials involved in cheating

Could it happen here? Is it happening here?

20 years jail ....!!!!

This is what happens when you compare private with public and it's the public schools that have to prove there doing the job but not private schools to get the money to run them .

And to think that is what has been happening here as it's made harder for the schools to justify the money .

As the Liberals wish to push private over public .

IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS WISH TO EXIST THEN THEY ARE THE ONES THAT NEED TO JUSTIFY THEY NEED THE MONEY AND ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING as here even the private schools get money from the government , they just don't have to justify what they spend it on .

TOTAL B/S private school's they only breed jealous , nasty , racists that are mean and greedy .

Pretty much most of the polly's in most country's and why they stuff most things up

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ES 99 wrote:

Interesting thinking.

Government Schools may get worse. Therefore...

Interesting thinking. I tell you what actually happens where this has been done and you replace 'will' with 'may'.

Screw those who wish to succeed.

Nope, it seems that you support screwing everyone.

As I have said repeatedly: It is The Left's 'Thinking', and 'Solutions, which are the problem.

As I have said, where The Right's solutions have been put into practice, misery and inequality have ensued.

Regarding Teachers Unions, from this 10000% Pro-Union person:

Many have degenerated into only Job Security/Pay Raise Unions. Not Pro-Student.

That is the sad fact.

That is a lie. It is not a fact. This coming from someone who has been in more than one teacher's union and knows the lies that are told about us by those with an agenda. You should do some actual thinking and stop swallowing wholesale the BS because you like the sound of it so much.

Highly Educated, does not, and never has, meant Ethical.

However, people generally go into teaching because they are ethical. Those that aren't ethical and are highly educated will go elsewhere to a job with more money and more status and less people lining up to blame the ills of society on you. One where you won't constantly be called greedy for wanting to be paid on level that matches the importance and skill of your profession. (BTW, I don't know what you think the average teacher earns, but if the unions are working so hard to makes us rich they are doing a sh*t job of it.)

Very much agree with parts, and disagree with other parts.

Unfortunately, locally, the rhetoric coming from the mouths of the union when speaking to the press, seems to be far more about insuring that the flow of dollars to the union executives is maximized, rather than any genuine concern for the pupils. There is some reason to believe this. In the recent contract negotiation the School Board told the Union how much additional money was available. They were given an option to hold pay and spend the rest of the money on supplies. That was rejected. They also were given the option to reduce class size. That was rejected. IIRC there was a news report that calculated the $ the union would have gotten from hiring the additional teachers to lower the class size was not as much as the $ that raising the base salary would provide the union. We live in a capitalistic society.

As to what happens to government schools ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasadena_Unified_School_District
Went from being able to take high school classes for credit taught at Caltech by their faculty, to not so good but lots of very expensive private schools. Yes, there is good education available, but your taxes don't pay for it anymore, so if you aren't independently wealthy, you can't get a good education!

Well firstly, I have seen how selectively the press reports on things, so just because the press reports one part of something, doesn't mean that is the whole story.

Here in BC teachers have taken many concessions just like the ones you suggested, and I would never recommend they do it again.

For example, we have been in a long fight with the government that may go all the way to the Supreme Court because of one such concession. Teachers agreed to a pay freeze in return for limits on class size and composition. The government then tore up this contract and imposed a new one that took that agreement away. So in the end teachers and students lost out.

The lasted volley from the government is about professional development days. Teachers want to be the best they can so they negotiated that they could take some days off their holidays and use them for professional development through out the year. The teachers organise these themselves because technically they are unpaid. The government has now decided that they don't like teachers having these 'days off' in school time and have just passed a law saying that they will now decided what happens on these professional development days.

So that is what happens when teachers decide to do what is best for students rather than taking pay rises.

This time last year we went on strike over the contract issue. Teachers had been without a negotiated contract for years and had been on a pay freeze so pay was falling below inflation.

The demand were a pay increase below inflation and restoring class size and composition to students. Guess which one the media focussed on? So when the average person in the street was asked if teachers should get a pay rise of 9% they said teachers were greedy. When asked if a pay rise in line with inflation covering the years their pay had been frozen would be acceptable everyone thought that would make sense, not realising that it was less than what teachers were asking for.

Teachers should be paid well for what they do and just like any well educated professional in charge of something so important they should be able to negotiate adequate pay for what they do.

Oh..and the reason the dispute dragged out so long was because teachers refused to 'work to rule' because it would affect the students. They didn't want to stop doing all the unpaid after school activities that parents things students are entitled to.

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Reality Internet Personality

Union Member Carped:

(BTW, I don't know what you think the average teacher earns, but if the unions are working so hard to makes us rich they are doing a sh*t job of it.)

Union Bosses 'Represent' Membership.

So, Shat Bosses equal Shat Members.

Seems Union Representation 'is' Spot On.

Yep.

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

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Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

Yet exactly the same media reports you talked about. So many the media reports you see aren't telling the whole story either.

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Reality Internet Personality

Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

Yet exactly the same media reports you talked about. So many the media reports you see aren't telling the whole story either.

I was unaware you were reading the local throw away news rags we have here locally that cover the local news in detail. If you mean the national yellow stuff a/k/a Corporate Opinion, well ......

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Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

Yet exactly the same media reports you talked about. So many the media reports you see aren't telling the whole story either.

I was unaware you were reading the local throw away news rags we have here locally that cover the local news in detail. If you mean the national yellow stuff a/k/a Corporate Opinion, well ......

I mean all the media, Gary. I am not sure what you are not getting here.

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Reality Internet Personality

Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

Yet exactly the same media reports you talked about. So many the media reports you see aren't telling the whole story either.

I was unaware you were reading the local throw away news rags we have here locally that cover the local news in detail. If you mean the national yellow stuff a/k/a Corporate Opinion, well ......

I mean all the media, Gary. I am not sure what you are not getting here.

You are taking an absolute position on all media and also telling me no matter which media [plural] I may see, you know how the story is biased.

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Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

Yet exactly the same media reports you talked about. So many the media reports you see aren't telling the whole story either.

I was unaware you were reading the local throw away news rags we have here locally that cover the local news in detail. If you mean the national yellow stuff a/k/a Corporate Opinion, well ......

I mean all the media, Gary. I am not sure what you are not getting here.

You are taking an absolute position on all media and also telling me no matter which media [plural] I may see, you know how the story is biased.

Gary, you know what I am telling you. Stop playing semantic games as if this is a court of law.

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Reality Internet Personality

Ess your PM over there is best buddies with Tony Abbott and they shear the same views to about education .

So i'm not surprised one bit your having trouble , funny the same thing is starting to happen here mmmm wonder why !!

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Different union, different representation, different vote, different result.

Yet exactly the same media reports you talked about. So many the media reports you see aren't telling the whole story either.

I was unaware you were reading the local throw away news rags we have here locally that cover the local news in detail. If you mean the national yellow stuff a/k/a Corporate Opinion, well ......

I mean all the media, Gary. I am not sure what you are not getting here.

You are taking an absolute position on all media and also telling me no matter which media [plural] I may see, you know how the story is biased.

Gary, you know what I am telling you. Stop playing semantic games as if this is a court of law.

Maybe means yes? Or only on a date?

When you have made hay at others for being imprecise with their language, well, have others do unto you as you would do unto them. You do a fair amount of putting words in others mouths and telling them how they feel in a couple of other threads. If you find a different way to express yourself, you might find a lot more general agreement. Unfortunately, this BBS style of posting tends to force one into making assumptions about the persons you are talking with, assumptions that frequently are not totally correct.

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Secret Teacher: I'm astonished by what some parents complain about

Don't we all look forward to the day when schools are run on the free market system and parents will have a louder voice on what happens to their little darlings? I just hope teachers will be able to control the weather by then.

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Reality Internet Personality

Secret Teacher: I'm astonished by what some parents complain about

Don't we all look forward to the day when schools are run on the free market system and parents will have a louder voice on what happens to their little darlings? I just hope teachers will be able to control the weather by then.

Maybe the school needs to send those complaints to this web site or suggest they go to the web site in your reply emails to complaints like that here it is .


http://www.god.com

on second thoughts maybe not you might get fired . hehehehehehe

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Possibly Free Choice, with vouchers, in poor neighborhoods.

Oh. Neither Teacher Unions, nor Government School supporters, will allow a mother to get the best education for her children.

Why?

Why can't some people learn the associative and communicative laws and set theory?

Why can't every child have the best?
Why do we have different schools with some "better" than others?
Why don't we simply put those "better" schools in places where there are "less than better" schools?
Should it matter where a child goes to school?
Shouldn't the educational opportunity be identical for all children?

Why can't some people learn the associative and communicative laws and set theory?

Or is privilege of the wealthy too powerful? Will they simply pay and bribe so that their children start higher so they can forever be privileged? (The rich get richer!)

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Secret Teacher: I'm astonished by what some parents complain about

Don't we all look forward to the day when schools are run on the free market system and parents will have a louder voice on what happens to their little darlings? I just hope teachers will be able to control the weather by then.

Maybe the school needs to send those complaints to this web site or suggest they go to the web site in your reply emails to complaints like that here it is .

http://www.god.com

on second thoughts maybe not you might get fired . hehehehehehe

Possibly Free Choice, with vouchers, in poor neighborhoods.

Oh. Neither Teacher Unions, nor Government School supporters, will allow a mother to get the best education for her children.

Why?

What you don't seem to understand that is that choice isn't the problem. Most schools in poor areas are funded much less than schools in well off areas. Its basic math.

http://www.alternet.org/education/gap-between-rich-and-poor-schools-grew-44-percent-over-decade/

Give the schools enough to do the job properly and they will. Hire enough teachers. Poor areas tend to need more support staff for special needs. They cost money. Buy text books so kids don't have to share. Invest in libraries in the school. Schools in poor areas actually need more funding than schools in rich areas because of the associated problems that go hand in hand with poverty. Somehow I don't think choice is going to magically make this happen.

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Reality Internet Personality

Possibly Free Choice, with vouchers, in poor neighborhoods.

Oh. Neither Teacher Unions, nor Government School supporters, will allow a mother to get the best education for her children.

Why?

Why can't some people learn the associative and communicative laws and set theory?

Why can't every child have the best?
Why do we have different schools with some "better" than others?
Why don't we simply put those "better" schools in places where there are "less than better" schools?
Should it matter where a child goes to school?
Shouldn't the educational opportunity be identical for all children?

Why can't some people learn the associative and communicative laws and set theory?

Or is privilege of the wealthy too powerful? Will they simply pay and bribe so that their children start higher so they can forever be privileged? (The rich get richer!)

Gary...

I do agree with you about the problem.

There are many way to improve public Schools. But...

I just wonder about those who don't care about the individual, and their children. Believing they can experiment on them.

These parents only have one-shot at raising them. They cannot wait years.

How do we help their children in the meantime?

School vouchers? Why not?

That's right, we can't wait decades for trickle down to operate. So we need to force the rich kids into the inner city public schools so their rich mommies and daddies will finally spend time and money to fix the public schools. This way the problem will be solved PDQ. As long as rich mommies and daddies can ignore the problem by sending junior to some private voucher school, the issue will get worse.

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That's right, we can't wait decades for trickle down to operate. So we need to force the rich kids into the inner city public schools so their rich mommies and daddies will finally spend time and money to fix the public schools. This way the problem will be solved PDQ. As long as rich mommies and daddies can ignore the problem by sending junior to some private voucher school, the issue will get worse.

Gary: part of my btain is reading this and thinking "Gary's being sarcastic. I don't think he would go for this force." Yet, it does seem you agree there's a problem and that it will remain as bad, or get worse, by allowing us to self-segregate. I do wish to understand your view as I wish to understand Es' and that of many others. So, could you clarify?

That's right, we can't wait decades for trickle down to operate. So we need to force the rich kids into the inner city public schools so their rich mommies and daddies will finally spend time and money to fix the public schools. This way the problem will be solved PDQ. As long as rich mommies and daddies can ignore the problem by sending junior to some private voucher school, the issue will get worse.

Gary: part of my btain is reading this and thinking "Gary's being sarcastic. I don't think he would go for this force." Yet, it does seem you agree there's a problem and that it will remain as bad, or get worse, by allowing us to self-segregate. I do wish to understand your view as I wish to understand Es' and that of many others. So, could you clarify?

You are right that I don't intend to use deadly force to get compliance. The tax code should be sufficient. But understand I attended a school district under forced busing. That did more to significantly raise property values than you can begin to imagine. The parents did not permit a bad school, once they came to realize their child would be attending. This raised test scores district wide and with that came real estate values because it was now a good school district.

Now as to "vouchers" the unspoken issue is that the poor, will not be able to use them. If for no other reason than getting their child to the voucher school. I'm also sure that the voucher school will "require" a laundry list of items, all of which cost money, none of which will be covered by the voucher.

I hate to say it, but it is a bit of a socialistic viewpoint. That every child be offered the same basic core education, without regard to where they happen to live. This doesn't mean every child takes all the same classes. It does mean that at every school all classes are offered. It means that the teachers are all about equally good, or if that can't be achieved, then they play musical schools. The point is to assure that we don't have a single school that has all less than average teachers while another has all above average teachers.

How much money your parents have should not be a factor in a child obtaining an education. As a nation, we should care about having the highest median, not the ones with the most privilege. I hope we have all come to the realization that separate but equal (segregation) was a failure. I don't think it matters why the segregation comes about either.

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The voucher thing has been suggested here by the Liberal Party .

So can someone please explain what it is and how it works as it sounds like a crap system and i'm very sus about it .

The Liberal Party here (tony Abbott Party) i believe is trying to change our system to be like America which i STRONGLY disagree with .

Sorry but i think your system is a bad one . The higher education in your country just needs to be tweeked and i'm not so against that but from ages of 5 - 18 your system sounds bad .

Primay schools and high schools should be available to all and it should be mostly free . (small fees for excurisions and things ) exercise books , uniforms , bags , shoes , pens rulers ok the perents can pay for them but not Textbooks . If perents can't pay then the gov should help out .

Is that what the vouchers are for to help poor people send there kids to school ?

If you wish to send your kids to a private school then the perents should pay for all costs and there should be no money coming from the government .

THEY ARE PRIVATE if they can't pay there own way then they should not exsit

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