Why are we still having to debate about abortion?


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Politics : Why are we still having to debate about abortion?

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · Next
Author Message
rob smithProject donor
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 8560
Credit: 60,120,011
RAC: 94,578
United Kingdom
Message 1330638 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 6:34:12 UTC

It would be life, in the same way that there are single-cell life forms on earth.
It may not be sentient life.
____________
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Profile Es99Project donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Aug 05
Posts: 9036
Credit: 256,804
RAC: 113
Canada
Message 1330643 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 6:40:30 UTC - in response to Message 1330635.

Ya, so if a single cell is found on another planet it wouldn't REALLY be life then would it?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

It would be life.

It would NOT be human life.

Although that would depend on the single cell you are talking about. If the single cell cannot perform all the functions of life then it will die, so it won't be alive. There are plenty single cell organisms out there. They are not human though.

Human life is a whole other ball game.
____________
Are you a feminist? Take the test

Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12822
Credit: 7,403,352
RAC: 18,353
United States
Message 1330645 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 6:46:40 UTC - in response to Message 1330635.

Ya, so if a single cell is found on another planet it wouldn't REALLY be life then would it?

We are talking human life, or did you commit murder today when you ate lunch?

ID's constant subject shifting has me convinced he is a hypocrite. He damn well knows a zygote isn't human life but can't admit it to anyone else because that would be an admission his belief system is riddled with errors.

____________

Profile Sarge
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99
Posts: 9258
Credit: 1,516,025
RAC: 1,728
United States
Message 1330647 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 6:48:42 UTC - in response to Message 1330634.

The Person with The Clump Of Cells in them, which are Dividing and Can Become A Human, has The Only Say in The Final Destination of Said Cells.


Dare I respond?
I think Worm/4th Angel/Demonella is also disagreeing with I.D.
Does this now make him a socialist sherpson?
I don't think so.

Profile Jim_SProject donor
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Feb 00
Posts: 4527
Credit: 18,881,986
RAC: 8,319
United States
Message 1330666 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 8:17:52 UTC
Last modified: 25 Jan 2013, 2:24:23 UTC

Time for Another Cooldown. at least 12 to 36 hours.
I am unlocking this Thread now...However it Will be watched For Baiting and Flames.
____________

I Desire Peace and Justice, Jim Scott (Mod-Ret.)

Profile Bill Turner
Send message
Joined: 29 Nov 10
Posts: 112
Credit: 37,989
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1331011 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 2:46:03 UTC

A friend of a friend just sent this to me. Just shows what lengths some people will go to push their agenda on others.

New bill would consider abortions from rape as "tampering with evidence"
____________
**Check out my wifes cupcakes**

Profile Blurf
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 2 Sep 06
Posts: 7580
Credit: 6,993,607
RAC: 2,829
United States
Message 1331028 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 4:21:03 UTC - in response to Message 1331011.

A friend of a friend just sent this to me. Just shows what lengths some people will go to push their agenda on others.

New bill would consider abortions from rape as "tampering with evidence"


Yes that is preposterous.
____________


Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12822
Credit: 7,403,352
RAC: 18,353
United States
Message 1331039 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 4:44:31 UTC - in response to Message 1331011.

A friend of a friend just sent this to me. Just shows what lengths some people will go to push their agenda on others.

New bill would consider abortions from rape as "tampering with evidence"

introduced by state Rep. Cathrynn Brown
?!!! By a woman?!!!!
!@#$%^&*()~!@#$%^&*()_~!@#$%^&*()!!!!!
Brown said in a statement Thursday that she introduced the bill with the goal of punishing the person who commits incest or rape and then procures or facilitates an abortion to destroy the evidence of the crime.

That is some quick backtracking. That or a totally inept attempt to write a law. I pity the people in her district. Recall isn't going to be fast enough.

____________

Profile Es99Project donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Aug 05
Posts: 9036
Credit: 256,804
RAC: 113
Canada
Message 1331058 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 5:55:55 UTC - in response to Message 1331011.

A friend of a friend just sent this to me. Just shows what lengths some people will go to push their agenda on others.

New bill would consider abortions from rape as "tampering with evidence"

How do such stupid people get into positions of power? WTF???
____________
Are you a feminist? Take the test

Profile Ex
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 12 Mar 12
Posts: 2895
Credit: 1,797,699
RAC: 796
United States
Message 1331059 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 6:09:48 UTC - in response to Message 1331058.

A friend of a friend just sent this to me. Just shows what lengths some people will go to push their agenda on others.

New bill would consider abortions from rape as "tampering with evidence"

How do such stupid people get into positions of power? WTF???

I blame the voters, and their lack of interest/knowledge in who they vote for.
____________
-Dave #2

3.2.0-33

rob smithProject donor
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 8560
Credit: 60,120,011
RAC: 94,578
United Kingdom
Message 1331062 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 6:17:05 UTC

Given that it is possible to collect a viable DNA sample while the foetus is only a few weeks (might be days?) old, such paternity proof testing could be performed without going to term.
(In the case of rape I would add an ongoing "maternal medical costs" levy on the father - based on the "normal medical costs" of bringing up a child to the age of say 16...)
____________
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12822
Credit: 7,403,352
RAC: 18,353
United States
Message 1331069 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 6:50:18 UTC - in response to Message 1331058.

How do such stupid people get into positions of power? WTF???

Stupid people, i.e. morons, are much easier to trick into doing your secret agenda and they are very beholden to you for financing their campaign. Citizens United being a big help there as well. Yes, the electorate is that gullible, and that is who our future is. For more someone should create an idiot politicians and how they get elected thread so as not to drag this thread OT.


____________

WinterKnight
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 8707
Credit: 25,220,581
RAC: 29,642
United Kingdom
Message 1331077 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 7:37:37 UTC

Would appear to be problems with the Catholic run Hospitals in Germany as well.

Where Catholic Beliefs and Public Needs Collide

And on Robs suggestion of the father paying the costs of raising the child, it would appear the accepted age is now 21, with the present day Cost of raising a child rises to £218,000

Profile Bill Turner
Send message
Joined: 29 Nov 10
Posts: 112
Credit: 37,989
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1331154 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 15:29:52 UTC - in response to Message 1331059.


How do such stupid people get into positions of power? WTF???



I blame the voters, and their lack of interest/knowledge in who they vote for.


+infinity
____________
**Check out my wifes cupcakes**

Profile Scary Capitalist
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 21 May 01
Posts: 7407
Credit: 77,033
RAC: 35
United States
Message 1331268 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 20:37:48 UTC - in response to Message 1330257.

Speaking as a poster, there should be no debate. SCOTUS decided this one long ago. The end?


Speaking as a moderator this thread has already caused emotions to run high and will be locked for 24 hours.


Factually, the Supreme Court did no such thing. Most Americans are entirely ignorant of what R v Wade actually is. If R v Wade were repealed tomorrow abortions would NOT be outlawed in the USA. It would merely allow the matter to revert to the individual states.

Furthermore, the abortion argument is typically represented from both points of view from irrational beginnings. Neither side that is portrayed in the public arena tend to debate 'personhood'; this is a point I made several years ago in a similar debate here started by ES99 when she was operating under a pseudonym.

To assert in the positive:

1. A zygote is human tissue. It isn't parsley or fungi, etc.

2. Human tissue is not necessarily a person. Cells in your body are not people.

3. The perameters of what is required to be judged human must be established before the argument can proceed.

4. The argument of whether or not and if said human person has established rights must be debated based on the above numbers 2 and 3.

5. A rights theory should be established to either confirm or negate any supposed rights to pregnant person's 'rights'.

(there are various and ubiquitous arguments for these by philosophers and ethicists extant)

My points above are meant to realize the debate to a level that is more rational than what is most emotionally charged (and often mystically) motivated by both sides. If we refuse to use reason and facts then emotionalism sets the tone which yields zero fruit.

____________
Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12822
Credit: 7,403,352
RAC: 18,353
United States
Message 1331313 - Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 22:15:45 UTC

Interesting ...
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22445064/bishops-will-review-catholic-hospital-defense-that-fetuses

a lawsuit in which a Catholic hospital defending against malpractice has argued that fetuses aren't persons

Hypocrite?

____________

Terror Australis
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 14 Feb 04
Posts: 1725
Credit: 206,015,673
RAC: 28,380
Australia
Message 1331614 - Posted: 26 Jan 2013, 17:14:05 UTC

To get back to the original question asked in the title of the thread. The answer is .... because it is a very emotional issue and because it is an emotional issue, the gulf between the "Pro" and "Anti" camps is almost irreconcilable and open, honest debate on the matter is virtually impossible

May I mention that not all women are Pro Choice, and not all men are in the "Pro Life" camp, so this is much more than a "gender issue". It isn't even necessarily a religious issue. Both sides have their fair share of atheists and agnostics

It isn't even a new debate, as abortion was probably the first method of birth control available to humans, this debate is very old indeed. Even before surgical abortions were developed, most hunter gatherer tribes knew of certain plants that could be taken to abort the foetus and the effect of a kick or punch to the woman's stomach (quite often at the woman's request).

I can see points from both sides. While I agree there are many cases where abortion is justifiable such as rape, deformities in the foetus, the woman being x-rayed in early pregnancy and so on. I am cool on the idea of abortion being used simply as a method of birth control, particularly when there are so many other options available though I have no problem with the "morning after" pill.

In the end though, I believe it is the choice of the woman concerned. There are very few women who would have an abortion without giving it serious forethought and getting advice from others. But in the end, if she feels she is strong enough to deal with the situation and decides to go through with it, it's her choice and her's alone.

T.A.

Profile Es99Project donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Aug 05
Posts: 9036
Credit: 256,804
RAC: 113
Canada
Message 1331619 - Posted: 26 Jan 2013, 17:34:15 UTC - in response to Message 1331614.

To get back to the original question asked in the title of the thread. The answer is .... because it is a very emotional issue and because it is an emotional issue, the gulf between the "Pro" and "Anti" camps is almost irreconcilable and open, honest debate on the matter is virtually impossible

May I mention that not all women are Pro Choice, and not all men are in the "Pro Life" camp, so this is much more than a "gender issue". It isn't even necessarily a religious issue. Both sides have their fair share of atheists and agnostics

It isn't even a new debate, as abortion was probably the first method of birth control available to humans, this debate is very old indeed. Even before surgical abortions were developed, most hunter gatherer tribes knew of certain plants that could be taken to abort the foetus and the effect of a kick or punch to the woman's stomach (quite often at the woman's request).

I can see points from both sides. While I agree there are many cases where abortion is justifiable such as rape, deformities in the foetus, the woman being x-rayed in early pregnancy and so on. I am cool on the idea of abortion being used simply as a method of birth control, particularly when there are so many other options available though I have no problem with the "morning after" pill.

In the end though, I believe it is the choice of the woman concerned. There are very few women who would have an abortion without giving it serious forethought and getting advice from others. But in the end, if she feels she is strong enough to deal with the situation and decides to go through with it, it's her choice and her's alone.

T.A.

I think a lot of "pro-lifers" confuse being pro-choice with pro-abortion. All we insist on is that people have the choice. If they have come to a situation where the alternatives are worse for them than having an abortion then they should have that choice.

It seems quite simple to me. No one has an abortion for pleasure. No one has an abortion on a whim. It is a difficult decision that only the mother and her doctor are in a position to decide. No one else needs be involved as they aren't the one's that have to deal with the consequences.
____________
Are you a feminist? Take the test

Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12822
Credit: 7,403,352
RAC: 18,353
United States
Message 1331823 - Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 1:14:31 UTC

A good read from the American Journal of Public Health:
http://advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/Paltrow,%20Lynn.%202013.%20Roe%20v.%20Wade%20and%20the%20New%20Jane%20Crow-%20Reproductive%20Rights%20in%20the%20Age%20of%20Mass%20Incarceration,%20American%20Journal%20of%20Public%20Health.pdf

____________

Profile Es99Project donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Aug 05
Posts: 9036
Credit: 256,804
RAC: 113
Canada
Message 1332016 - Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 17:46:05 UTC - in response to Message 1331971.

The only input that men should have to the abortion issue are ancillary.
Men can provide financial and emotional support, but it ends there.
The spiritual and physical consequences of whether an abortion is warranted can only be borne by the bearer.

Apparently there is a word for it when men presume to tell women what is best for them:

A Cultural History of Mansplaining

____________
Are you a feminist? Take the test

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Why are we still having to debate about abortion?

Copyright © 2014 University of California