Firearms. Who or what is dangerous?


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Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
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Message 1331901 - Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 6:19:37 UTC - in response to Message 1331888.

It was about, and right now is about, having the means to defend the public against.
Illegal search and seizure, and the 'don't tread upon me' legalities of a corrupted government. Which is what we have right now.

You cannot see the corruption at the federal level that is happening right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_raid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YFZ_Ranch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
Yep, they are coming for you.

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Message 1332149 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 3:35:35 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jan 2013, 3:45:25 UTC

With My Firearms I'm dangerous...I'm dangerous to Large Game Animals, Small Game Animals, Tasty Birds and Any Home Intruder or Steel Silhouette Target from 0 to 800 Meters.
I dislike Handguns, Assault Weapons and any untrained nut with a Weapon.
I also like a Shotgun for Game and Clay Pigeons and a .22 semi-auto for small Game and Target shooting.
However My Wife has a Handgun for self defense.
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Message 1332180 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 6:51:54 UTC

Does Utilitarian philosophy still reign?

The U.S.A. FBI crime statistics always show that many more violent crimes are prevented by the actual presence of guns than with them (these are the only comprehensive statistics available)It is something approacfhing 20-1 in favor of the victim. It may be ugly to certain people with enhanced sensibilites but doesn't mean it makes the citizzery that much safer.

From a practical point of view, guns that are modernally effective last now for hundreds of years. They are impossible to get rid of.

Further, the risk of putting American citizens against eachother due to draconian anti-gun laws is risky for society, alienating many that hold votes and political sway. It's just not wise or right. Since most gun owners exercise their right responsibly there's little to fear from such people.

Violent crime has been going DOWN over the past decade....even in Chicago.

Mass shootings are down.

In countries like U.K. violent crimes increase since their gun bans. Hacked to death with a machete in a shop is preferable perhaps to some.

What does someone actually fear from a person who is her/his neighbor with guns in his house? This is a mystery to most rational people. It almost smacks of psychological displacement where the desire to force others is projected upon someone else because of the tendencies of another. None of it makes much rational sense.
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Message 1332222 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 13:57:38 UTC - in response to Message 1332180.

Does Utilitarian philosophy still reign?

The U.S.A. FBI crime statistics always show that many more violent crimes are prevented by the actual presence of guns than with them (these are the only comprehensive statistics available)It is something approacfhing 20-1 in favor of the victim. It may be ugly to certain people with enhanced sensibilites but doesn't mean it makes the citizzery that much safer.

From a practical point of view, guns that are modernally effective last now for hundreds of years. They are impossible to get rid of.

Further, the risk of putting American citizens against eachother due to draconian anti-gun laws is risky for society, alienating many that hold votes and political sway. It's just not wise or right. Since most gun owners exercise their right responsibly there's little to fear from such people.

Violent crime has been going DOWN over the past decade....even in Chicago.

Mass shootings are down.

In countries like U.K. violent crimes increase since their gun bans. Hacked to death with a machete in a shop is preferable perhaps to some.

What does someone actually fear from a person who is her/his neighbor with guns in his house? This is a mystery to most rational people. It almost smacks of psychological displacement where the desire to force others is projected upon someone else because of the tendencies of another. None of it makes much rational sense.

You raise a good point about the fear of firearms. I was raised around guns. taught they were not toys and the rules about handling them. There are some folks who just about wet themselves when they find out I have one. I have 5 duaghters. Three of them married men who like to hunt and target shoot. One is not keen on the idea of firearms and one goes into fits about hearing the word.

Now I keep all my firearms in a safe and so do the sons in laws who have firearms. The older grandkids who like to target shoot have been raised to know the rules also. They aslo know how to safely handle one. Now the other two daughters. They have kids, who have no clue about firearms. I was told flat out not to ever show them a firearm or even how to safely handle one.

All the kids know the rule that if you see a fire arm, stop, dont touch it and tell an adult.
But I ask you this. What if they are over at a friends house and they find a firearm. Id hope it was one of my grandkids who know the rules and knows they are not toys.
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Message 1332243 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 15:16:13 UTC

I hear that certain southern Sheriffs will get to decide what is constitutional, instead of the Supreme Court.

Sure sounds rational to me, with me IQ of 62.

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Message 1332364 - Posted: 28 Jan 2013, 22:41:28 UTC

http://news.yahoo.com/missile-launcher-shows-seattle-gun-buyback-174331546.html

SEATTLE (AP) — Seattle police worked with Army officials Monday to track down the history of a nonfunctional missile launcher that showed up at a weapons buyback program and determine whether it was legal or possibly stolen from the military.

A man standing outside the event Saturday bought the military weapon for $100 from another person there, according to Detective Mark Jamieson.

The single-use device is a launch tube assembly for a Stinger portable surface-to-air missile and already had been used. As a controlled military item, it is not available to civilians through any surplus or disposal program offered by the government, according to Jamieson.
...
Police witnessed the private exchange of the military launch tube near the gun buyback event, where gun buyers tempted those standing in long lines to turn in their weapons with cash.

"It was absolutely crazy what we saw out there," Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn said at a news conference Monday where officials announced they had collected a total of 716 weapons, including four confirmed as stolen.

Officers saw guns changing private hands without knowing whether the person buying the gun had the legal right to buy it, and those transactions are occurring all the time, McGinn said.

So prohibitions on assault weapons will work, just like laws preventing the public from having stinger missiles. I'm so glad I live in a country without criminals.

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Message 1332968 - Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 22:16:11 UTC

Amerika has a mental health problem ...
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/30/health/mental-illness-guns/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Gerald Hume was described in the affidavit as a "known schizophrenic (who) hears voices, and requires treatment" and who has had "several mental health interventions with OCPD" and a history of violent behavior.

He didn't steal his guns or borrow them. He bought them.

"He bought them like any normal person would -- he got them at Walmart," said Oklahoma City Police Capt. Dexter Nelson.

Hume bought the rifles at the Walmart in Moore, Oklahoma, on September 25. The next day he bought the Glock at Gun World in the nearby town of Dell City, according to Nelson. Both are federally licensed gun dealers that conduct background checks. The checks, in theory, are supposed to stop certain people -- including the mentally ill with a history of violence -- from buying them.

What is this person doing walking the streets?

Want the what?
Last November, Oklahoma City police officers went to check on an elderly woman after relatives reported they hadn't heard from her in a while.

At 77, Janet Hume was living with her adult son, Gerald, who the family said was schizophrenic. Since she typically kept in close contact with relatives, police decided to investigate.

They visited the Hume home on three occasions. Each time, her son refused to let them inside, insisting "everything was OK," according to a police affidavit.

But it was far from it.

What police eventually discovered instead was a horrendous case that underscores how little the country's current gun laws can do to stop a mentally ill person from buying a gun -- even if, like Gerald Hume, they have a documented history of violence.

Before their third visit, detectives talked with one of Janet Hume's friends, who gave them troubling news.

"Janet Hume told her that Gerald has recently bought several guns," according to the police affidavit, which was seeking a search warrant for the Hume home.

That third time police went to check on Janet Hume, all hell broke loose.

Gerald Hume held police at bay for 11 hours, barricading himself inside the home as a police helicopter flew overhead. During negotiations, police records show Hume admitted shooting his mother in the chest.

At 4:30 a.m. on November 14, an Oklahoma City Police tactical unit finally forced its way into the home. Hume pointed his 9mm Glock at them. An officer used a stun gun on him; another fired a beanbag rifle at him. But police still had to rush him, pushing him down with their shields.

Police then quickly searched Hume's home, finding Janet Hume's body in a bedroom, the affidavit said.

While Hume's lawyer declined to be interviewed, the inventory of items seized from the home in relation to the case tells a gruesome story.

In addition to the handgun and three rifles, police also removed a Whirlpool freezer, a reciprocating saw and a serrated kitchen knife, according to the inventory, filed with the search warrant. They also seized a pair of blood-splattered safety glasses and a white plastic trash bag containing women's clothing that was "cut up/stained," the document said.

Authorities found parts of Janet Hume's body inside the freezer, along with the body of a house cat, the district attorney told the Oklahoman newspaper.

Again, why is a violent schizophrenic who hears voices doing walking the streets?

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Message 1333014 - Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 0:53:23 UTC

Well, ya see, when someone is an inpatient, the caregiver working with them on their treatment sets up these goals. Goals to achieve before moving from 3rd to 2nd floor, 2nd to 1st, 1st to outpatient, outpatient to fully out in society without a net.
Then, in the late 80s, the goals were made ridiculously easy to achieve, the patients were told what goals they had to achieve, etc. ... . Hey, when you see that guy about 20 years old, brown hair, don't assume he's the son you haven't seen a few weeks and run up to him and start talking to him.
Why did they make the goals easy to achieve and known to the patients? It's cheaper. In the short run.

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Message 1333194 - Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 16:32:57 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jan 2013, 16:35:27 UTC

It's the same story the whole world over. Mental health care being down graded to save costs.

Of course it was all done in the name of "patients rights" and "reintegrating them into the community" and all that blather, but mainly it was done to save costs.

In all countries it was conveniently ignored that there were those who needed constant supervision to make sure they stayed on their medication and those who were a potential danger to the community. The police are powerless, they cannot take action unless a person actually kills or injures someone, even if their relatives have advised the police that the person is a potential danger to themselves and others. The gaols have become defacto mental institutions. Even in Australia it is estimated that 50% of inmates have psychiatric problems.

The advantage here in Australia is that such people do not have ready access to firearms, therefore, when they go off the rails they are limited to less lethal weapons. Taking a knife to the top of a tall building has nowhere near the danger to the public as taking a rifle and a hundred rounds of ammunition.

There are very few votes in pushing for more spending on mental health.

T.A.

Message 1334258 - Posted: 3 Feb 2013, 13:44:29 UTC
Last modified: 3 Feb 2013, 13:59:33 UTC

One Of Our Noted Brainiacs stated there are No Attacks At A Gun Range, because that is Where The Guns Are.

Well, It Happened. Two Men. Gone.

Read The Story from whatever source you like.

WFAA/Channel 8 quoted unnamed sources as saying that Kyle of Midlothian and a neighbor had taken Routh on an outing to help him deal with post-traumatic stress disorder. Routh turned on the men and shot them in the back, the report added.

The sheriff said he could not confirm how the victims were shot.


Star-Telegram

Who Or What Is Dangerous?

Humans. Damn Dirty Handed Humans.

IGNORE Say: Humans Bad. Guns Good.
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Message 1334280 - Posted: 3 Feb 2013, 15:00:54 UTC - in response to Message 1334258.

One Of Our Noted Brainiacs stated there are No Attacks At A Gun Range, because that is Where The Guns Are.


Really?
Who said that?
Coincidence that I saw a post like that in a "meme" a few hours ago on a social media site?

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Message 1334320 - Posted: 3 Feb 2013, 18:12:19 UTC - in response to Message 1334280.
Last modified: 3 Feb 2013, 18:13:49 UTC

It seems genuine. The story gets the first 3 pages of hits on Google for a search of "Two men shot at gun range"

T.A.

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Message 1334491 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 2:06:30 UTC

Short BBC news article.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/americas-top-sniper-shot-dead-ptsd-veteran-191955255.html

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Message 1334492 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 2:10:29 UTC

None of the 4 of us who have posted here have said anything doubting whether the story is genuine.
It is something else that I questioned.

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Message 1334500 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 4:09:26 UTC - in response to Message 1334492.

None of the 4 of us who have posted here have said anything doubting whether the story is genuine.
It is something else that I questioned.

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.

I would expect more people to get shot at a range than any other location. Mind you most of the time it is unintentional.

In any case the alleged shooter is an alleged mental case. Another failure of feel good must re-integrate policy.

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Message 1334502 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 4:26:50 UTC - in response to Message 1334500.

None of the 4 of us who have posted here have said anything doubting whether the story is genuine.
It is something else that I questioned.

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.

I would expect more people to get shot at a range than any other location. Mind you most of the time it is unintentional.

In any case the alleged shooter is an alleged mental case. Another failure of feel good must re-integrate policy.

I don't see why you are so scathing of policies that are designed to recognise someone's human rights, even if they are mentally ill. Are the options for you really between locking up sick people, or letting them run riot with guns? how about simply making sure that they can't get hold of guns.
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Message 1334504 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 4:34:19 UTC - in response to Message 1334502.

None of the 4 of us who have posted here have said anything doubting whether the story is genuine.
It is something else that I questioned.

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.

I would expect more people to get shot at a range than any other location. Mind you most of the time it is unintentional.

In any case the alleged shooter is an alleged mental case. Another failure of feel good must re-integrate policy.

I don't see why you are so scathing of policies that are designed to recognise someone's human rights, even if they are mentally ill. Are the options for you really between locking up sick people, or letting them run riot with guns? how about simply making sure that they can't get hold of guns.

Or axes, machetes, knives, Molotov cocktails, ANFO, ...


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Message 1334514 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 5:27:36 UTC - in response to Message 1334502.
Last modified: 4 Feb 2013, 5:28:16 UTC

None of the 4 of us who have posted here have said anything doubting whether the story is genuine.
It is something else that I questioned.

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.

I would expect more people to get shot at a range than any other location. Mind you most of the time it is unintentional.

In any case the alleged shooter is an alleged mental case. Another failure of feel good must re-integrate policy.

I don't see why you are so scathing of policies that are designed to recognise someone's human rights, even if they are mentally ill. Are the options for you really between locking up sick people, or letting them run riot with guns? how about simply making sure that they can't get hold of guns.


Es, I know you're responding to Gary, but I advocate in-patient programs for those whose illness is severe enough. In the 70s, there'd be a bit of the merry-go-round I mentioned in an earlier post, but it became worse in the 80s. And I think it had to little to nothing to do with "feel good", "reintegration" policies. Even in the 90s, some people, even do-gooder/feel-gooders knew what needed to be done when someone was a "danger to self, others or property".

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.


Gary, who said that?
Has Worm altered his usage of the slang term "brainiac"?

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Message 1334542 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 7:24:51 UTC - in response to Message 1334514.

None of the 4 of us who have posted here have said anything doubting whether the story is genuine.
It is something else that I questioned.

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.

I would expect more people to get shot at a range than any other location. Mind you most of the time it is unintentional.

In any case the alleged shooter is an alleged mental case. Another failure of feel good me-integrate policy.

I don't see why you are so scathing of policies that are designed to recognise someone's human rights, even if they are mentally ill. Are the options for you really between locking up sick people, or letting them run riot with guns? how about simply making sure that they can't get hold of guns.


Es, I know you're responding to Gary, but I advocate in-patient programs for those whose illness is severe enough. In the 70s, there'd be a bit of the merry-go-round I mentioned in an earlier post, but it became worse in the 80s. And I think it had to little to nothing to do with "feel good", "reintegration" policies. Even in the 90s, some people, even do-gooder/feel-gooders knew what needed to be done when someone was a "danger to self, others or property".

Yes, and I remember a fool posting that here too.


Gary, who said that?
Has Worm altered his usage of the slang term "brainiac"?

And i agree with you, but it should be a last resort, not a first resort. I am sure I've mentioned before that someone i know was stabbed to death in a quite horrific way by a schizophrenic. However, that situation was more to do with the mental health service not stepping in when his mother warned them that he had stopped taking his meds.

@Gary, in that situation one woman was murdered and one was seriously injured. It happened in a densely populated housing estate. Both women were dragged out into street where children play and were repeatly stabbed. Horrific, but if he had had a gun...
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Message 1334592 - Posted: 4 Feb 2013, 15:00:06 UTC - in response to Message 1334542.

@Gary, in that situation one woman was murdered and one was seriously injured. It happened in a densely populated housing estate. Both women were dragged out into street where children play and were repeatly stabbed. Horrific, but if he had had a gun...

Or ANFO ... Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Michael and Lori Fortier

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