Guy, I don't believe I said anything about labor camps. I said offer them jobs that are currently not being done at a much lower cost to society than incarceration. From an economic sense it is a win win deal.

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P.S.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.


DING!

I agree Gary hit the nail on the head right there. I've seen it first hand in my youth.

So how do we start to reverse the cycle? That's the million dollar question.

My feeling is that there is no short term solution. My feeling is that this needs to start with a massive overhaul of the education system, and then if done right perhaps in 20-30 years following generations can overcome this.

Another thing to consider is a single working mother in poverty is not afforded the luxury of time to be a parent. Even in two parent families like my son is fortunate enough to have, it is next to impossible to live off of one income and leave mom at home full time, though we make it happen. I do feel it's for the best benefit of a child.

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#resist

For OBAMA'S SAKE!

We want free reproductive health. (code word...)
Childcare has a limited tax deduction...
---shouldn't that be a tax credit?
---Or better yet, shouldn't that be free?
Kindergarten through 12th...
---already funded by a variety of ways
---shouldn't that be totally taken over by the Dept of Education and fully funded through them so they're all equal?
---Don't we want free education?
College...
---Shouldn't that be free?
---Obama has already seized control of all student loans. Shouldn't all those loans be granted amnesty?
---There's a variety of private student grants available, shouldn't the Dept of Education seize all that money so everybody has a free education?
Job Training
---Shouldn't we require industry to include free training before hiring? After all, everybody has a right to work, right?
Free health care.
---Obamacare is well on its way to completely taking over health care in America
Free housing...
---if you qualify for it and it exists
---shouldn't we expand this program to include everyone?
Free food...
---if you qualify for it, it exists
---shouldn't we expand this program to include everyone?
Free cell phone...
---already exists...
---shouldn't we expand this to include everybody?
End of life care...
---Obamacare is well on its way to taking care of this
Burial
---Shouldn't this be free for everybody or should we continue to burden the next of kin?
---Don't we all have a right to a decent burial?

For OBAMA'S SAKE!

...

None of these things are on the table, either from the Republicans or from Obama. Which election do you think this discussion is about?

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Reality Internet Personality

James. follow the money. Big bucks are involved and I am not talking about campaign contributions.

Betreger--please cite specific examples of these "big bucks" (non-campaign contributions) you mention. Thanks

Betreger-please respond to this post and answer my question.

---

P.S.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.


DING!

I agree Gary hit the nail on the head right there. I've seen it first hand in my youth.

So how do we start to reverse the cycle? That's the million dollar question.

My feeling is that there is no short term solution. My feeling is that this needs to start with a massive overhaul of the education system, and then if done right perhaps in 20-30 years following generations can overcome this.

Another thing to consider is a single working mother in poverty is not afforded the luxury of time to be a parent. Even in two parent families like my son is fortunate enough to have, it is next to impossible to live off of one income and leave mom at home full time, though we make it happen. I do feel it's for the best benefit of a child.

Looking back in time, the criminal gang in America got it start with prohibition. At first it was liquor. Today it is drugs. Legalize drugs and the problem by in large will go away as it did when liquor was legalized again.

Many of the gangs won't cease to exist but the problem of them recruiting children to be in them will. It is harder to use a child to peddle gambling or run a house of ill repute. These ills of society tend to have fixed addresses and are easier to police because of that, if they cause secondary problems.

---

OK, the way I see it, one example is the fossil fuel industry. Look at the law suit that they recently won in Montana. They want more drilling and mining rights with less regulation. Media companies want to merge across platforms such as newspapers and television so our knowledge base can be limited. I do believe Rupert Murdoch does have a political agenda. IMO, I am witnessing the growth of an oligarchy as our form of government.

---

They are more likely to be surrounded by crime, drug and alcohol abuse and untreated mental illness.

Ah, circular logic. I think you can to better ES.

It's a circular problem. I thought that much was obvious. To solve it you have to figure out ways to break the cycle.

Calling it a cycle makes it interesting. Are the numbers of poor blacks so huge in comparison to poor Hispanics, poor white, poor pacific islanders, that is the reason for the disparity is incarceration rates? A research question.

The Headstart Programwas created to try and tackle the causes early and help break the cycle of poverty. It has had some success. Unfortunately Romney has stated that he will cut this program.

I thought he was going to cut ALL programs.

True, but this thread of conversation began with a discussion of why there are more minorities in prison than whites. My point was that poverty is more of an indicator than race. It just so happens because of the history of the US you are more likely to be poor if you are black or Hispanic. I picked that particular program because it was one targeted at breaking the cycle through different support programs and education.

Remember, there are children in these welfare families. When you raise a child in poverty without the nicer things in life (for example two parents, in some cases because of the ridiculous incarceration rates both parents are in jail) they are more likely to continue down the path their parents took.

So being poor is a reliable predictor of criminal activity. A conclusion then would be to concentrate police resources looking at the poor as they would be more likely to catch criminals. Programs like stop and frisk. I'm sure you didn't mean this ES.

I stated the problem. If that is how you would solve it then there is a fundamental difference between you and I. BTW, what you describe is exactly what happens now anyway. The police call it profiling. Another name for it is "driving while black".

If I thought that was the solution I wouldn't carry my ACLU card. But that thought process is a logical result of the observation that poverty is a reliable indicator of criminal activity. This was what I was questioning you on.

Or, did you mean that there is a poverty culture and it accepts crime, drug and alcohol abuse and incarceration as the norm.

Sadly this is the case. Children raised in this environment haven't been shown another way of living. If a teenager sees one adult working for 50 hours a week for minimum wage and another earning $1000s drug dealing, which career do you think they will aspire to?

The one that is glamorized in Hollywood movies.

Self satisfaction for a job well done and good days work is a missing concept in society today. Part of the issue.

Imagine someone like our poster William Rothamel owned a small business and wanted to hire someone. Based on his posts I would suspect that if a Hispanic person and white person with the same qualifications and experience applied for the job, he would give it to the white person. Imagine that multiplied by 1000s of times.

I'm talking about race here as one factor because this started with the prison comment. I'd just like to point out that most welfare recipients are actually white. Being on welfare isn't the only way of being poor. People can work very hard and still be poor and need help from the government.

Is it race or is it internal culture?

Yes, the amount of manual labor is likely inversely proportional to the value of the work being done. Sad comment on how society values itself. Yes hard work isn't always a route to riches. Smart work does seem to be.

Schools are horribly underfunded in these areas (I somehow don't see Romney pledging to improve the funding of the public education system).

The social safety net you are so against is more complicated than you seem to think.

I'm not against a social safety net, I'm against a government funded one. That is why we have charities in the USA. If the government is doing that job then we shouldn't allow private interference in the important function of the government. Tax Churches. Dump 501(c)3. Of course that kills Seti@home, but the government knows best.

Oh, any of you are welcome to support one of my favorite charities, Rebekah Children's Services.

If you cut it, what will happen to the children in these families? How are families meant to go to work for minimum wage and pay childcare costs? have you ever sat down and worked out the numbers? What will eventually happen to the crime rate when the funding of the HeadStart program is cut?

If you really want to know what causes these kids to drop out spend some time talking to a teacher from one of these areas and they will tell you about all the obstacles these kids face everyday. Things that would break your heart.

The one thing they all say is the utter lack of self discipline the students have and the total disrespect for authority, how a couple of bad actors spoil every student in the class and learning is impossible. That there is no method the teacher has to do anything about the bad actors. At least that is what my friends who teach in south central LA have to say, oh that and the political gamesmanship played by the Union and the Administration that prevents any solution to the problem of teaching the students who want to learn and rise out of the ghetto.

True. There is an anti-edcuation problem that has come out of a fear of the government. On one hand teachers are seen as part of the system that has put these people in the position they are in. Couple with the constant hammering and blaming of teachers by the media and politicians there is very little respect left for the job teachers do. You can't expect the kids to respect them if no one else does.

True, unfortunately the teacher labor unions foster some of that distrust themselves.

If you want to see an example of some some the worst things that children can go through, go watch the movie "Precious". Then ask your self how amazing would someone have to be to be able to overcome that start in life.

It happens. I've know kids it has happened to..and plenty of other things you wouldn't believe.

When the gang they join is a better family than Mom and Dad, I think we know the real issue.

It's not quite as simple as that. Very good parents can lose their kids to gangs, and if a child is raised by poor parents they are less likely to end up as good parents themselves. It's a complicated problem and most bleeding heart liberals recognise that.

The gang problem has many causes, the war on drugs being one of them. Take the profit out of being a drug dealer and you will find there are less drug dealers preying on the young and the vulnerable.

Legalize. Might save enough cash in the budget to not have to make cuts to some of the social welfare programs. But we can't go bankrupt or it will be 100 times worse than any proposed cut.

<ed>fixed quote levels

---

OK, the way I see it, one example is the fossil fuel industry. Look at the law suit that they recently won in Montana. They want more drilling and mining rights with less regulation. Media companies want to merge across platforms such as newspapers and television so our knowledge base can be limited. I do believe Rupert Murdoch does have a political agenda. IMO, I am witnessing the growth of an oligarchy as our form of government.

People are asking you for examples--please at least give us the courtesy of answers regarding your statement.

---

Blurf, on June 25 "In the 5-to-4 ruling on Monday, the court summarily reversed a decision of the Montana Supreme Court that had upheld a state law limiting independent political spending by corporations. That decision, the United States Supreme Court said, was flatly at odds with Citizens United, which said the First Amendment allows corporations and unions to spend as much as they like to support or oppose political candidates." this is an example of a special interest group overturning a century old law and the will of the citizens attempting to limit the voice of non citizens. Is that not an example? Fox new attempting to shape our society, is that not another? If you disagree then so be it.

---

Guy, just one of many insidious forces with many issues on all sides. Fox just bends reality a bit more than others. Murdoch has demonstrated with his British phone hacking that he is immoral and should not have a public broadcasting license.

---

They're all on the table. Each and every one of them would solve the problems discussed.

For example, a massive overhall of the education system and the single mother...

And jobs program for those incarcerated...

... all brought up in just the last couple of posts. If I went back farther, I'd find more.

Love ya!

Guy the Great!

P.S.

Thank you Blurf. I'd like an answer too.

Slacker = one who posts too much to S@H. Get back to work! ;)

Guy, you laugh at my concept of reducing the cost of dealing with miscreants and at the same time getting something of value from them while improving their position. What is wrong with that concept?

---

Seems the discussion in my thread has ranged far and wide.
And I don't mind.
Discussion is crucial to this country right now.

From what I can discern, there is little here that is changing the mind of anybody from their chosen position. Mostly folks defending same.

Some comments have gotten a bit heated and personally directed at each other, which I do not appreciate. But I shall not quash continued debate.

I guess the only answer to my rhetorical question first posed.......

Is.....VOTE.

By God, at least vote your conscience, your views, your opinion, whatever.
But please, do NOT be one of those who I have met over the years who was bemoaning over a beer how bad things were and then had the audacity to tell me that they never even voted in the first place.

Because it 'would not make a difference' or some such drivel.

Folks......if you are a US citizen, I believe this is one of the most important elections in the history of this country.

Whether you espouse or agree with my views or not does not matter to me as much to me as that you get off your hinder and vote.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

^ +1 to Mark. Just do your duty, exercise your right, and voice your opinion. As far as the presidential race, my vote will not make a difference, as NY goes to the democrat, always, but I will still do my duty to also voice my opinion for the other offices up for vote.

If enough people stop voting and stop caring, that'll be another right that is stepped on and interfered with... More than has been happening recently.

---

#resist

Seems the discussion in my thread has ranged far and wide.
And I don't mind.
Discussion is crucial to this country right now.

From what I can discern, there is little here that is changing the mind of anybody from their chosen position. Mostly folks defending same.

Some comments have gotten a bit heated and personally directed at each other, which I do not appreciate. But I shall not quash continued debate.

I guess the only answer to my rhetorical question first posed.......

Is.....VOTE.

By God, at least vote your conscience, your views, your opinion, whatever.
But please, do NOT be one of those who I have met over the years who was bemoaning over a beer how bad things were and then had the audacity to tell me that they never even voted in the first place.

Because it 'would not make a difference' or some such drivel.

Folks......if you are a US citizen, I believe this is one of the most important elections in the history of this country.

Whether you espouse or agree with my views or not does not matter to me as much to me as that you get off your hinder and vote.

I think this is what I was trying to express. Vote and live with what the results are. Some of the other options mentioned here are tantamount to revolution and the eventual anarchy that would result. Such action would benefit a few who would become the new hated elite The world and US populations are at a point now where governments, good, bad or indifferent are necessary for the good of all.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

I personally have come to the inevitable conclusion that our political system is so corrupt that only a revolution could possibly correct it.

What was the quote?
Something like....
"Power corrupts....and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Our government currently thinks they have absolute power. And have been corrupted accordingly. Our president seems to think he is beyond the 'will of the people'....and acts accordingly.

I have to vote accordingly.
Sadly, as I am not real inspired, it shall be for R&R.

It's really sad when once has to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Which is what I alluded to when I first started this thread.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster