Trade Unions - For or Against?


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Politics : Trade Unions - For or Against?

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · Next
Author Message
Profile John Clark
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 99
Posts: 16515
Credit: 4,418,829
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 1290472 - Posted: 2 Oct 2012, 23:42:20 UTC - in response to Message 1290458.

Ah to be a union head....

...definitely got to be the life of riley....

Scargill not done yet


A greedy example of the worst TU boss, and still not come to terms with his disastrous fight with the Government
____________
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1290664 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 10:15:24 UTC

If I recall, previous DPM John Prescott had an unseemly run-in about a union funded flat that he had, whilst having government funded grace & favour premises elsewhere.

If Trade Unions choose to spend their Members dues on subsidising politicians, to get favourable outcomes, then they need to get their contracts in order such that when the politicians move on, the funding stops. These "lifetime" arrangements never seem to get voted in by the rank and file Members.

I agree with the principle of Trade Unions, I have been a Member all my working like and am a retired Member now. Firstly with the POEU, then with SPOE, then with Connect, now with Prospect. Collective representation is sensible, but you don't hold your country to ransom.

Profile ignorance is no excuse
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 00
Posts: 9529
Credit: 44,433,274
RAC: 0
Korea, North
Message 1290776 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 15:26:40 UTC

My dad was a Conservative(UAW)Union member(oxymoron was lost on him)for 34 years. He loved the union but hated that members saw the rules as opportunities to screw off at work. He went to work and did a good days work every day.

interlude... He went to work one day and decided to do just as much work as the others were doing. He was met with a tongue lashing by the foreman. It seems the others were relying on his dilligence to cover their laziness. They counted the work in total not by the laborer. He made a point.

back to the action.
I see the unions job not to protect lazy workers but the positions the lazy workers hold. If you have a good for nothing laborer he should be shown the door not given raises for doing nothing more than showing up for work.

There are certain jobs in this world that need Union protection. Autoworkers probably are low on that list.
____________
In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

End terrorism by building a school

Profile James SotherdenProject donor
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 16 May 99
Posts: 8808
Credit: 34,452,673
RAC: 60,861
United States
Message 1290794 - Posted: 3 Oct 2012, 15:57:05 UTC

Ive seen both sides of being in a union. The worlds largets air conditiong company that i worked for had a union. Im glad for that to. Management did evreything they could to twist the rules and make life miserable in the plant.

On the other hand Ive seen the union proetct a worhtless slug piece of crap worker who would take days off when they felt like it, didnt do ther job and did it badly to boot. If a guy dosnet want to work the union and the company should show his a-- to the door.
____________

Old James

Sirius B
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 11122
Credit: 1,652,690
RAC: 3,248
Israel
Message 1291416 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 22:55:51 UTC
Last modified: 4 Oct 2012, 22:57:17 UTC

Bob Crow on his soundbox again.....

Should Railways be re-nationalised?

IMV, no they shouldn't. I believe Dr Wellings has hit the nail on the head.

One cannot blame any private company for attempting to recover the high cost of the franchise with a bit of profit on top, it makes sound business sense.

Now for Bob Crow.....

"With the East Coast run efficiently and safely in public hands, and contributing hundreds of millions back to the Treasury and investing in services rather than private profits, the West Coast should be next with the rest to follow under one, single, publicly owned and integrated umbrella.

Bring back British Rail? As an alternative to the greed and chaos on our railways laid bare over the past week? You bet"

Huh? East Coast run efficiently? Really? I don't think so & secondly, stop lumping the state run East Coast Main Line as the East Coast - it is not, it's just one company using the track laid down between London Kings Cross & Edinburgh.

Since 1997 when it was privatised, we've had GNER, National Express, both lost the franchise due to financial difficulties experienced by their too high a bid for the franchise. It's now ECML & run via DfT in Whitehall.

There are several more companies that use that track which for East Anglia are FirstCaptialConnect(Gawd help me, a FirstGroup company) & Greater Anglia. Both these companies run a clean efficient & reliable service. Before them, it was National Express, who took over from WAGN (Another clean, reliable service).

Just think what good they could do for the region & indeed the country as a whole, if all the so called privatised railways were indeed privatised.

Bob Crow & his ilk already know this but are just scaremongering their members so that they can retain their perks within the unions.

So if anything like the current fiasco occurs on their watch, then & only then would a call for re-nationalisation be worth it as then, privatisation would be proven a failure.

A failure at the moment? No, that's the government throughout the railway industry still having their claws bolted securely to the tracks!

Edit: I personally haven't travelled on the WCML since British Rail days, but I'm pretty sure that something similar runs on that line.
____________

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1292195 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 20:40:40 UTC

Oh dear, I and Sirius will have to agree to disagree again. I think that the railways should be re-nationalised.

It is my firm belief that in the 21st Century, everyone should have the right to enjoy basic commodities at an affordable price. By that I mean the traditional four Public utilities of Gas, Water, Electricity, and Telecomms, plus public transport. They should be in public ownership, and there to provide a service. They should be given a sensible budget to allow for operating costs, maintenance, and future investment, and be expected to break even, not make a profit.

Of course the whole lot has been sold off and privatised, so what we now have is shareholders expecting a dividend in return for their investment, or they'll take their money and invest it elsewhere. Profits now take precedence over customer service, and they can't afford to invest for the future.

Previous governments sold off the family silver, and it was a one way trip. They now simply can't afford to buy private investors out and re-nationalise any of it, so it simply wont happen.

Sirius B
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 11122
Credit: 1,652,690
RAC: 3,248
Israel
Message 1292202 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 20:54:03 UTC - in response to Message 1292195.

I would totally agree if in fact the railways were fully privatised, but they are not. The government hold the strings, while the companies are just franchisee's.

Make them fully private & then see. If the fiascos continue then re-nationalise.
I don't want to see the likes of Bob Crow, crowing his way to riches while holding the country to ransom. We had enough of that in the 60's & 70's.
____________

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1292369 - Posted: 7 Oct 2012, 9:58:40 UTC

A bit of background for those outside the UK.

During WWI the railways were under State control. The grouping of the Railways Act 1921, saw four large railway companies, each dominating its own geographic area: the Great Western Railway (GWR), the London, Midland and Scottish Railway (LMS), the London and North Eastern Railway (LNER), and the Southern Railway (SR). British Rail came into existence in 1948 when the big four were Nationalised. The London Underground publicly owned since 1933, was also Nationalised, becoming the London Transport Executive (LTE).

The Beeching report of 1963 closed 1/3 of the network as being uneconomic, and steam was ended in 1968 with dieselisation. Finally privatisation of the railways came during 1994-97. Ownership of the track and infrastructure passed to Railtrack, renamed Network Rail in 2002, which is regulated by the Dept of Transport. Passenger operations were franchised to an original 25 private-sector operators, now many more. Operating companies.

These days Network rail, runs, maintains and develops Britain’s rail tracks, signalling, bridges, tunnels, level crossings, viaducts, and 17 key stations. it is in fact partly privatized as Sirius says, it is a 'not for dividend' private company operating as a commercial business, directly accountable to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR). All the profits go straight back into improving the railway.

The operating companies generally don't own any rolling stock, they lease them from the carriage and engine builders, and paint them in their own liveries. They do directly employ their own staff however. If only the operating companies could be run on the same basis at Network Rail, we might get somewhere.

Oh by the way, after Beeching in 1963 they ripped up a lot of the double track from Salisbury to Exeter and downgraded it to single track. since 2006 they are spending millions putting back double track and rebuilding stations, to form passing loops so that they can run trains at hourly intervals each way instead of 2 hours. Passenger numbers have increased in the intervening 50 years to make it now worthwhile. They still run steam trains at Yeovil junction but only for enthusiasts.

Due to militancy, the miners, motor workers and print unions destroyed their own industries and shot themselves in the foot. The likes of Bob Crow are going the same way with transport. The problem is that too many smaller unions are being swallowed up by the bigger unions, so that a threat of a large or general strike is that much greater. Perhaps the only answer is to bring in legislation to ban workers in the four utilities and public transport from striking as being against the National interest.

Nice idea, can't see it happening ....

Profile Es99Project donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Aug 05
Posts: 8943
Credit: 252,831
RAC: 119
Canada
Message 1293527 - Posted: 10 Oct 2012, 17:24:34 UTC

This is what happens when there are no unions. Walmart is very anti-union and will not allow them. This is the result:

Has Slave Labor Come to America?
____________
Are you a feminist? Take the test

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1293569 - Posted: 10 Oct 2012, 19:35:31 UTC

The average Walmart worker makes $8.81 an hour, $15,576 per year which is below the poverty line for a family of two or more and low enough a wage for even a household of one to qualify for public assistance and food stamps.


2010 UK National Minimum wage £6.19 hour ($9.90)
2010 UK Average wage £26,800
2010 Average weekly wage £500
2010 Average retail wage £300

But of course no-one pays the national minimum, people would stay on benefits. But retail work is traditionally badly paid as is catering. UK employment legislation says that workers may join a union if they wish and cant be sacked if they do.

Sirius B
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 11122
Credit: 1,652,690
RAC: 3,248
Israel
Message 1293570 - Posted: 10 Oct 2012, 19:40:17 UTC - in response to Message 1293569.
Last modified: 10 Oct 2012, 19:50:49 UTC

The average Walmart worker makes $8.81 an hour, $15,576 per year which is below the poverty line for a family of two or more and low enough a wage for even a household of one to qualify for public assistance and food stamps.


2010 UK National Minimum wage £6.19 hour ($9.90)
2010 UK Average wage £26,800
2010 Average weekly wage £500
2010 Average retail wage £300

But of course no-one pays the national minimum, people would stay on benefits. But retail work is traditionally badly paid as is catering. UK employment legislation says that workers may join a union if they wish and cant be sacked if they do.


They're the 2012 rates.

2011 = £6.08
2010 = £6.03
____________

Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 12524
Credit: 6,823,443
RAC: 5,239
United States
Message 1293581 - Posted: 10 Oct 2012, 20:04:45 UTC - in response to Message 1293527.

This is what happens when there are no unions. Walmart is very anti-union and will not allow them. This is the result:

Has Slave Labor Come to America?

Who is their customer? Why does their customer like them?

____________

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1293584 - Posted: 10 Oct 2012, 20:16:10 UTC

Each week, about 100 million customers, nearly one-third of the U.S. population, visit Walmart's U.S. stores. Walmart customers give low prices as the most important reason for shopping there, reflecting the "Low prices, always" advertising slogan that Wal-Mart used from 1962 until 2006. The average US Wal-Mart customer's income is below the national average, and analysts recently estimated that more than one-fifth of them lack a bank account, twice the national rate. A Wal-Mart financial report in 2006 also indicated that Wal-Mart customers are sensitive to higher utility costs and gas prices.


This would seem to indicate that 1/3 of the USA can't afford to shop anywhere else, so they have a captive market.

Profile UliProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 6 Feb 00
Posts: 9779
Credit: 5,460,294
RAC: 744
Germany
Message 1295403 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 1:05:24 UTC

Thanks for the article Esme. Haven't shopped there in years as a protest for driving the Mom and Pop stores out of business.
____________
Pluto will always be a planet to me.
Order your 15th Seti Anniversary Shirt today. Just PM me for details.
Cash Donation Specialist

Seti Ambassador

Profile betregerProject donor
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 29 Jun 99
Posts: 2335
Credit: 4,946,332
RAC: 10,320
United States
Message 1295426 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 3:11:46 UTC - in response to Message 1293581.

Gary, I've never spent a cent there, their employment practices have offended me long before they came to my state. I am grateful that saving the last dime does not matter. I do have values.
____________

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1295476 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 8:05:03 UTC
Last modified: 15 Oct 2012, 8:06:53 UTC

Thanks for the article Esme. Haven't shopped there in years as a protest for driving the Mom and Pop stores out of business.

I assume that the UK Corner shop is the same as the US Mom & Pop stores. We have seen thousands of those go out of business over the last 20 years, they simply cannot compete with the big boys bulk buying prices.

Where they used to score was being open for a loaf of bread, a pint of milk, and a newspaper from 6am in the morning till 10.30pm at night. These days most supermarkets have a late opening night once a week til 9pm and most are open on Sundays now. I have suppored my local corner shop, because they get me my favourite Polish Warka beer that I've been into for a couple of years now. Also on occasions I've been 10p or 15p short of change. Because he knows me he will say, don't worry, pay me tomorrow when you come in. In a supermarket I'd have to put something back on the shelf.

Like Uli, I won't use Tesco out of protest at their bully boy tactics, in buying land and forcing through planning permissions for new stores no-one wants, putting local shops out of business. I do believe they treat their staff fairly though.

Profile UliProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 6 Feb 00
Posts: 9779
Credit: 5,460,294
RAC: 744
Germany
Message 1295478 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 8:18:21 UTC

Chris Mom and Pop stores used to give you credit and didn't charge you intestest. They trusted you. Will Walmart do that. Of course not. You will have to use a credit card now adays.
____________
Pluto will always be a planet to me.
Order your 15th Seti Anniversary Shirt today. Just PM me for details.
Cash Donation Specialist

Seti Ambassador

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1295487 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 9:15:30 UTC
Last modified: 15 Oct 2012, 9:29:50 UTC

Back in the 60's when I were a lad, there used to be a corner shop opposite the machine shop where I worked. Nearly all of us Apprentices used to go across and get 10 fags "on the slate" towards the end of the week and settle up on Friday payday. You don't see that now, although I will say that a few weeks ago the corner shop had just had a delivery of cheap red wine at £3 a bottle as a new line. I said I might try one the next day as I had no extra cash on me, he said just take one pay me tomorrow.

It's a sort of trusted free credit. The supermarkets now give cashback which can save you making a separate trip to the ATM. Most people over here do a weekly shop at the supermarkets, and top up during the week at the corner shops as required.

Profile UliProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 6 Feb 00
Posts: 9779
Credit: 5,460,294
RAC: 744
Germany
Message 1295495 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 10:00:36 UTC
Last modified: 15 Oct 2012, 10:08:04 UTC

We are getting very off topic. But here I go. I have an Arco that will trust me enough to give me credit. Not sure if it is my employer or the bank, but sometimes funds are not there, when they shold be.
I will let you know about unions soon. My ex has belonged to one. Not sure, if I will get a piece of the pie. I tho I did what most woman do. Insrert the work part.
____________
Pluto will always be a planet to me.
Order your 15th Seti Anniversary Shirt today. Just PM me for details.
Cash Donation Specialist

Seti Ambassador

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31708
Credit: 12,900,055
RAC: 39,956
United Kingdom
Message 1295505 - Posted: 15 Oct 2012, 10:45:15 UTC

Trade Unions in the UK will usually give a once off death grant or gratuity to a widow of a Union Member dying in service. There is usually no Union pension unless they were a paid official of the Union, in which case a smaller widows pension may be paid. Over here a divorced wife can claim an enhanced state pension based upon her former husbands National Insurance contributions, if she herself has not made up enough contributory years in her own right. I don't know the situation in the USA.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Trade Unions - For or Against?

Copyright © 2014 University of California