I.D. at one stage you claimed that the United States is founded on Christianity, so how many of these were Christians.
George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine and Ulysses S. Grant?

And how many of the first 20 Presidents can, without question, be classified as Christians?

I.D. at one stage you claimed that the United States is founded on Christianity, so how many of these were Christians.
George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine and Ulysses S. Grant?

And how many of the first 20 Presidents can, without question, be classified as Christians?

I was waiting for that! I'm very glad you brought it up, as that is another misconception that the US was founded as a Christian nation. Excellent!

Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

Sirius B, if we don't use labels, it makes it very difficult to comment. WHY? Try saying something about how people act without using labels. While taking a shortcut via the embankment of the River Nene this morning, I spotted a group of fishermen enjoying themselves, laughing, smiling & sharing their foodstuffs. It made for a great tranquil scene.

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Steve, you point out the middle ground of misconceptions. There is the conservative side of miss-conceptions, and the liberal side of ms-conceptions as well no doubt <smile>

I suppose a miss-conception in this thread regards the definition of 'statesman'...

I was waiting for that! I'm very glad you brought it up, as that is another misconception that the US was founded as a Christian nation. Excellent!

Steve

Alot of Bible is Allegory.

Im Christian and I believe the very words of Christ are within the Gospels.

I have already given you a website that tells a very different story then you.

This is a political forum.

Logic is a real science, it does not belong in theology dept. Ergo it does not belong as branch of philosophy logic was the FIRST science.

I am not a politician. I am a statesman who understands who rules in this country and it does not relate to "headmans Table" no kings or queens. Here sir, the people govern and makes the laws.

And---you sir, DO NOT get to tell me what my calling is. I do.

Read my post again. Nowhere did I mention modern times or countries - I referred to the Old & New Testaments & compared the "prophets" to modern day politicians.

Oh & your website is 100% factful & proves that god exists? Really?

You really should have become a catholic priest. With what you've been posting here so far, I guarantee, you would've have become pope by now.

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Thank you

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Sirius B, if we don't use labels, it makes it very difficult to comment. WHY? Try saying something about how people act without using labels. While taking a shortcut via the embankment of the River Nene this morning, I spotted a group of fishermen enjoying themselves, laughing, smiling & sharing their foodstuffs. It made for a great tranquil scene.

Isn't the term "fisherman" a label too? Aren't labels nothing more than names of categories for Stuff and Things?

LOL...I was hoping that Guy came back on this one. Yes it is. However, I mentioned the labels on my post in regards to the topic. In general, no one cannot speak with a "label" creeping into the conversation.

Back to the topic - Why the religious labels, they're not really needed as they really serve no purpose.

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What's all this stuff against lapels -- folks here don't like sport jackets?

Abells tolling....it tolls for ID.

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Guy, in his classic 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Gibbons posited that one cause of the fall was the adoption of Christianity....

I.D. at one stage you claimed that the United States is founded on Christianity, so how many of these were Christians.
George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine and Ulysses S. Grant?

And how many of the first 20 Presidents can, without question, be classified as Christians?

Ummm, you claim I don't know history and you lump Abe Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant as founders?

Riiiiiiiight.

bobby, there's no scientific proof (according to the rules scientists like Steven Hawking follow) any god exists. Quit trying to introduce the bait and switch tactic with me.

You were the one that said "This alone, I believe, makes the Christian God stronger than Allah", bait, I followed you up on that comment and your reply is switch. What am I missing?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I.D. at one stage you claimed that the United States is founded on Christianity, so how many of these were Christians.
George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine and Ulysses S. Grant?

And how many of the first 20 Presidents can, without question, be classified as Christians?

Ummm, you claim I don't know history and you lump Abe Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant as founders?

Riiiiiiiight.

Another failure of comprehension? Where (other than in your reply) is there a claim that any of those listed were Founding Fathers? It could be argued that the U.S. was founded anew by the Civil War (thus Lincoln and Grant were founders of a renewed U.S.).

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Poster with no name and no afterlife quit putting words in my mouth. Just how are you imagining this stuff? Have you recently turned on, tuned in, and dropped out?

I'm simply commenting on your statements that make up your opinions. If my perceptions are imagined, I must have had a reason to imagine them.

Hmmm... imagine that...

So you have a problem with proselytizing priests and ministers as much as you have a problem with proselytizing Atheists? I'm glad to hear I was wrong about you and your double standards.

Again, without the majority of a nation believing in God, that nation is doomed.

Proof please.

I've already asked you to give me a list of nations that have prospered due to the removal of God from the people. After you answer my question first (since I asked it first), then I will give you a list of Godless nations in history that have failed and are currently failing right now.

Oh I see... so because a list doesn't exist for nations that have prospered with a removal of God, that automatically proves that a nation will fail without one.

I'll tell you what, since you're using puerile logic, I will respond in kind: you provide me with proof that a nation will fail without a God (since I asked second and 2 is more than 1), and I'll give you a list of nations that have prospered due to the removal of God.

Such intellectualism simply astounds me! I'm glad this thread is moving right along.

How do you know a Christian man from a man who does not believe in a God?

By his words and deeds.

All ethics are founded in Gods Law. Chris S has already covered that.

Now where would that leave U.S. Grant one might say?

Depends on what you think is a Just War. I do think the Civil War was a Just War.

I admire the English for ending slavery of the Black Man without war.

I think of war as the last straw. And everytime war breaks out and our President sends our troops to war; Impeachment trials should be held till that President can prove Just War Cause. That is what a states man is, he is the protector of the Rule of Law and the mouthpiece of the voters.

I ask that the Constitution be restored, slavery was the reason for our Constitution.

The founders knew this, the ones with a conscience got 3/5ths clause put into the Constitution. Here is where everyone yells about Jefferson and Washington. Most people who were slaves back then were white people, Indentured 'White Slaves' in the Colonies. They outnumbered the Black Slaves. But, nevertheless both Washington and Jefferson owned blackslaves. By the way, both men set them slaves free at their deaths. The Clause of 3/5ths held off importation of slaves till the end of Jeffersons term as President.

Now we here in this Country once again find slavery. And the very elected on both sides of that one bird in congress are the ones who have enslaved us. They have ignored us in favor of reelection monies from lobbiest. Gotta have that TV money. This is Fascist in nature. This really got a foothold during the Civil War with the war machine that won the war, this lobbiest thing. Really took hold into true Fascisism in WWII, with the real partnership of the war machine and politics. Not that WWII can't be correctly called a Just War, it can, but partnership did not end with the war. Nor did the lobbiest on K-Street.

We no longer make the laws in this country. The law is made either by the President, a touch of Rome. Or the law is written by a 3rd party given to congress and passed by them after it is given to them like Health Care. As I said, we no longer make laws, they are imposed.

If the above is true I ask what is slavery? We are now slaves to debt. And China that banker. I ask what is slavery and where is my rule of law?

How we have came to slavery from free people is the removal of good and sound ethics that came from good and sound morals that are a Gift from God.

How do you know a Christian man from a man who does not believe in a God?

By his words and deeds.

All ethics are founded in Gods Law. Chris S has already covered that.

Given that I do not believe in God, and given that you don't know me personally, are you really willing to level against me that I have no ethics?