Chance is what you speak of. If the Designer was not the One who made everything we see then chance is what it is left up to.

You would be tared and feathered by most people if you told them there are not math truths. They would ask you who balanced your checkbook! Get real.

They are rules not "truth". One could postulate a different set of rules and get different results.
Majority does not make for truth!

Welllll here we go again back to square one....

The Majority makes the laws, and just as long as them laws are not outside of the Constitution [law based on God's Law] and does not unduely abridge the minority of their Constitutional rights we have a truth based on law.

Chance is what you speak of. If the Designer was not the One who made everything we see then chance is what it is left up to.

You would be tared and feathered by most people if you told them there are not math truths. They would ask you who balanced your checkbook! Get real.

They are rules not "truth". One could postulate a different set of rules and get different results.
Majority does not make for truth!

Welllll here we go again back to square one....

The Majority makes the laws, and just as long as them laws are not outside of the Constitution [law based on God's Law] and does not unduely abridge the minority of their Constitutional rights we have a truth based on law.

ID, you have changed the subject . Your response appears not to address my comment.

---

Chance is what you speak of. If the Designer was not the One who made everything we see then chance is what it is left up to.

You would be tared and feathered by most people if you told them there are not math truths. They would ask you who balanced your checkbook! Get real.

They are rules not "truth". One could postulate a different set of rules and get different results.
Majority does not make for truth!

Welllll here we go again back to square one....

The Majority makes the laws, and just as long as them laws are not outside of the Constitution [law based on God's Law] and does not unduely abridge the minority of their Constitutional rights we have a truth based on law.

ID, you have changed the subject . Your response appears not to address my comment.

You either have the money in your checkbook or you do not. If you have the money it is taken out and sent to the one who you wrote the check to. If not you are sent a fine, of 25 dollars or more and you pay the rest of the check or all of it too. This is the rule set by the majority. It's called "Thou Shalt Not Steal". It is a Law that God Handed down to Moses. It is a law that is accepted by our own Country.

It's also a mathematical law. You have a number greater then zero. You take away from that number alittle at a time till you reach zero again. Most of the Hoi polloi are very well acquainted with it. Most of the minority commonly called the elected are not very well acquainted with it. It also seems that so called scientist are not acquainted with it.

What the Hoi polloi call truth isn't what you call truth. Just because you accept something as a truth doesn't make it true. From the Hoi polloi point of view you dont understand truth or rules. They understand a balanced check book, and they fathom Statistical Math, odds. Your math story is just that to them, a story that is to fantastic for them to believe. I understand it and I still don't believe it.

Chance is not a factor. God/Designer and Faith is the answer.

Chance is what you speak of. If the Designer was not the One who made everything we see then chance is what it is left up to.

You would be tared and feathered by most people if you told them there are not math truths. They would ask you who balanced your checkbook! Get real.

They are rules not "truth". One could postulate a different set of rules and get different results.
Majority does not make for truth!

Welllll here we go again back to square one....

The Majority makes the laws, and just as long as them laws are not outside of the Constitution [law based on God's Law] and does not unduely abridge the minority of their Constitutional rights we have a truth based on law.

ID, you have changed the subject . Your response appears not to address my comment.

You either have the money in your checkbook or you do not. If you have the money it is taken out and sent to the one who you wrote the check to. If not you are sent a fine, of 25 dollars or more and you pay the rest of the check or all of it too. This is the rule set by the majority. It's called "Thou Shalt Not Steal". It is a Law that God Handed down to Moses. It is a law that is accepted by our own Country.

It's also a mathematical law. You have a number greater then zero. You take away from that number alittle at a time till you reach zero again. Most of the Hoi polloi are very well acquainted with it. Most of the minority commonly called the elected are not very well acquainted with it. It also seems that so called scientist are not acquainted with it.

What the Hoi polloi call truth isn't what you call truth. Just because you accept something as a truth doesn't make it true. From the Hoi polloi point of view you dont understand truth or rules. They understand a balanced check book, and they fathom Statistical Math, odds. Your math story is just that to them, a story that is to fantastic for them to believe. I understand it and I still don't believe it.

Chance is not a factor. God/Designer and Faith is the answer.

You answered yourself very well there, I quote,

Just because you accept something as a truth doesn't make it true.

Ummmm, sorry I see anything in the last post that wouldn't be called childish.

I think that Pascal probably summed it up as well as anybody it what is known as Pascal's Dilemma, known also as a Wager or Gambit. In which he is quoted as saying;

It posits that there's more to be gained from wagering on the existence of god than from atheism, and that a rational person should live as though God exists, even though the truth of the matter can't actually be known.

I'll let you Google it if you want more info.

And I still say as you quoted, slightly modified,

Just because you accept that there is a god as a truth doesn't make it true.

they fathom Statistical Math, odds.

Was sitting in a bar one day flipping a coin. A man came up to me and asked what I was doing. I told him I was flipping the coin and it had come up heads the last 100 times in a row. He was amazed. I asked him what he thought would happen next time I flipped it. I let him look at the coin to see that it was a two sided coin and not loaded. I wouldn't let him flip it, because I didn't want the magic broken. So I asked him if he would bet $20 to my $1 on the next flip. He put his $20 on the bar.

The rest of the story later.

---

they fathom Statistical Math, odds.

Was sitting in a bar one day flipping a coin. A man came up to me and asked what I was doing. I told him I was flipping the coin and it had come up heads the last 100 times in a row. He was amazed. I asked him what he thought would happen next time I flipped it. I let him look at the coin to see that it was a two sided coin and not loaded. I wouldn't let him flip it, because I didn't want the magic broken. So I asked him if he would bet $20 to my $1 on the next flip. He put his $20 on the bar.

The rest of the story later.

Ummm, who takes care of the bills at your place? I don't do three card monty either. I would take your money at poker however........

Chance is what you speak of. If the Designer was not the One who made everything we see then chance is what it is left up to.

You would be tared and feathered by most people if you told them there are not math truths. They would ask you who balanced your checkbook! Get real.

They are rules not "truth". One could postulate a different set of rules and get different results.
Majority does not make for truth!

Welllll here we go again back to square one....

The Majority makes the laws, and just as long as them laws are not outside of the Constitution [law based on God's Law] and does not unduely abridge the minority of their Constitutional rights we have a truth based on law.

ID, you have changed the subject . Your response appears not to address my comment.

You either have the money in your checkbook or you do not. If you have the money it is taken out and sent to the one who you wrote the check to. If not you are sent a fine, of 25 dollars or more and you pay the rest of the check or all of it too. This is the rule set by the majority. It's called "Thou Shalt Not Steal". It is a Law that God Handed down to Moses. It is a law that is accepted by our own Country.

It's also a mathematical law. You have a number greater then zero. You take away from that number alittle at a time till you reach zero again. Most of the Hoi polloi are very well acquainted with it. Most of the minority commonly called the elected are not very well acquainted with it. It also seems that so called scientist are not acquainted with it.

What the Hoi polloi call truth isn't what you call truth. Just because you accept something as a truth doesn't make it true. From the Hoi polloi point of view you dont understand truth or rules. They understand a balanced check book, and they fathom Statistical Math, odds. Your math story is just that to them, a story that is to fantastic for them to believe. I understand it and I still don't believe it.

Chance is not a factor. God/Designer and Faith is the answer.

Laws of man (legal system) <> mathematical laws.

Natural sciences' theories < truth (instead they are best current approximation).

Truth <> laws of man (legal "proof beyond reasonable doubt", is not "mathematical proof").

Mathematics = abstract truth (mathematics is an abstraction, though can be applied to concrete subjects, like balancing a checkbook). "1" is an abstraction, and under the rules/laws of math, in bases other than 2, 1+1=2, this can be applied to the material world sensibly, e.g. $1 + $1 = $2, or in a manner that does not produce a material result, e.g. 1 fish + 1 bicycle = how much a woman (Irina Dunn) needs a man.

Objective truths of the material world are not subject to the "will of the majority", they just are (i.e. the aggregation of subjective truths <> objective truth). The natural sciences are tools to help us discover objective truths of the material world.

Restating that chance is not a factor makes it no more true than me saying you are wrong. What the natural sciences find is that chance is a factor.

Support your claim with data (note, data is not a collection of anecdotes), overturn scientific theories that have chance as a factor. For example, provide a non quantum mechanistic explanation for liquid helium flowing up hill.

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Bobby, I fear you ask for more than ID can deliver.

---

Bobby, I fear you ask for more than ID can deliver.

Quite possibly, the cephalopod eye exchange does not give me any reason to suspect that ID can provide a non quantum mechanistic explanation for liquid helium flowing up hill, though as it's ID's claim that chance is not a factor, it's up to ID to substantiate it.

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

That seems to be my problem with a belief in a God of any kind. There is absolutely nothing to substanciate it, except raw faith. It seems to help a lot of people, and I'm happy for that, but to me it's just an unsubstanciated myth.

Steve

---

Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

How do we know if what has been written in the bible, scriptures, scrolls, etc
are actually factual and not fictional?

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

How do we know if what has been written in the bible, scriptures, scrolls, etc
are actually factual and not fictional?

We know without doubt that what is currently in the Bible, has been altered thousands of times from it's earliest texts. 11 of the books in the Bible were written by unknown people, saying they were the famous arthors, hence forged. There are many contradictions in the Bible. The old Testament was written by 40 people over 1600 years. There are some 5000 different versions of the Bible today. Discription of Biblical events do not match observations.

Steve

---

Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

How do we know if what has been written in the bible, scriptures, scrolls, etc
are actually factual and not fictional?

If on the 3rd Day (Genesis 1.11 - 1.13):

1:11 God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.” It was so.

1:12 The land produced vegetation – plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. God saw that it was good.

1:13 There was evening, and there was morning, a third day.

and on the 6th day (Genesis 1.26 - 1.27):

1:26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”
1:27 God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.

Why was it necessary to do it all over again? (Genesis 2.5 - 2.7):

2:5 Now no shrub of the field had yet grown on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.

2:6 Springs would well up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.

2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

After that God goes on to plant an orchard (didn't He do that already as part of Day 3?) and so it goes on. With the Bible starting with two contradictory accounts for how the world was created, is it any wonder why some people have trouble believing it to be anything other than a collection of fictions?

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I was just thinking that in addition to the contradictions, and questions regarding the Christian Bible, what about the Bibles, or what they are called from the other faiths? It seems like a lot of variance, with little verifyable common ground. Which one is correct? The one the person you are talking to was taught.

Steve

---

Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

After that God goes on to plant an orchard (didn't He do that already as part of Day 3?) and so it goes on. With the Bible starting with two contradictory accounts for how the world was created, is it any wonder why some people have trouble believing it to be anything other than a collection of fictions?

...and when God summons's me before him, for my day of reckoning, and he says
to me, "Nick you never believed in me". My reply to him was, "No wounder, have
you not seen the mess you've made of it all, no one really knew what to believe in and remember,
we're only human after all. Anyway, some of your believers got up
here on a wild card. They got to meet Jesus and see the miracles, hear your
voice and other experience too, a bit unfair wouldn't you say. Us lot afterwards
got given a book to follow, er, not really the same is it". And Gods reply to
all this, I'll never know because at this point I woke-up, yup I was dreaming.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

they fathom Statistical Math, odds.

Was sitting in a bar one day flipping a coin. A man came up to me and asked what I was doing. I told him I was flipping the coin and it had come up heads the last 100 times in a row. He was amazed. I asked him what he thought would happen next time I flipped it. I let him look at the coin to see that it was a two sided coin and not loaded. I wouldn't let him flip it, because I didn't want the magic broken. So I asked him if he would bet $20 to my $1 on the next flip. He put his $20 on the bar.

The rest of the story later.

Ummm, who takes care of the bills at your place? I don't do three card monty either. I would take your money at poker however........

Hummm, about the reply I expected. You know because I posted it, something is up, but you don't know what. Coin is fair, flip is fair. Heck after you put your $20 on the bar, I'll even let you flip it. Remember it has come up heads 100 times in a row. You will put $20 to have it come up tails because I'm the one taking the risk in having it come up 101 times in a row on heads. It has got to be at least 20 to 1 odds right?

---

nope just 50/50. Each flip is an individual event. just like the previous 100 flips. Now you can point out that the events repeating themselves 100 times is very unlikely. like 1.27 octillion to 1 However a 1 time even with a +/- chance is still 1:2

---

In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

nope just 50/50. Each flip is an individual event. just like the previous 100 flips. Now you can point out that the events repeating themselves 100 times is very unlikely. like 1.27 octillion to 1 However a 1 time even with a +/- chance is still 1:2

There's a UK based "magician" (Derren Brown) that showed, as part of a TV show, uncut footage (with no camera angle, etc. trickery involved), where he picked up a coin and flipped it 10 times in succession and they all came up heads. Anyone can make an equivalent film.

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...