Modern Cosmology. GOD and The Resurrection of the Dead.


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Message 1165494 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 13:44:20 UTC - in response to Message 1165483.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 13:54:26 UTC

The Pope can be criticized. Many Catholics do it. But to insult him as a "fraudster" is a completely different thing. As for the history of Jesus as a man, I could quote an entire bibliography, some including texts written by his Roman contemporaries, besides texts written by his followers. Some are very critical of him.There are books by Ernest Renan and Alfred Loisy, both ex priests, that tried to demonstrate that he was only a man, not the Son of God.None of them denied his historical existence, which is beyond any doubt.
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Just a single English book: Markus Bockmuehl (ed),"The Cambridge Companion to Jesus", Cambridge University Press, Cambridge (2001)
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Message 1165496 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 14:07:23 UTC

The pope is just a man, you can agree or disagree with him, in my opinion the vatican ideas about certain things are a paradox and it seems that about certain subjects catolic church stopped in time.

Jesus, well, he was a man also, about being the son of God, or the Mesiah, it's a question of faith.

Anyway one thing is certain about Jesus, he was so important in mankind that calendar was split between AC and BC.

It does not matter if this decision was taken by man, because it was, but today this division is still valid.

Jesus showed mankind one thing, that humans should improve themselves and before looking to other imperfections to critisize they should look to themselves. He also showed that no matter if you are a king, a peasent, or even the son of God, we are all mortals, we born, we live and we die the same way.

At this moment and until proven otherwise we only have one life, so use it wisely and use it in benefit of others. It can look silly, but if you make 3 people smile everyday for sure you will be happy.

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Message 1165500 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 14:18:53 UTC - in response to Message 1165494.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 14:46:35 UTC

But to insult him as a "fraudster" is a completely different thing.


Is it really such a different thing if the whole of religion is a scam?

Let's pretend for a moment that it is proven beyond a doubt that all of religion is false. That statement would be more true then. Lots of people would feel the same way.

Now if the opposite were proved to be true, then that same statement could be slander (though there are plenty of laws preventing public officials from being able to file slander lawsuits as protected by free speech).

...but until either side finds proof, it's nothing more than a legitimate view from one side.

As for the history of Jesus as a man, I could quote an entire bibliography, some including texts written by his Roman contemporaries, besides texts written by his followers. Some are very critical of him.There are books by Ernest Renan and Alfred Loisy, both ex priests, that tried to demonstrate that he was only a man, not the Son of God.None of them denied his historical existence, which is beyond any doubt.


I see no mention of Jesus of Nazareth in any other texts from around the same time. I do however see plenty of stories of other saviors around the same time frame, all performing the same acts attributed to Jesus, such as Apollonius of Tyana. None of the stories show that these people actually existed. They were merely stories to uplift the spirits of the people as they believed they were in dark times.

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Message 1165505 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 14:25:36 UTC - in response to Message 1165496.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 14:29:06 UTC

Jesus showed mankind one thing, that humans should improve themselves and before looking to other imperfections to critisize they should look to themselves. He also showed that no matter if you are a king, a peasent, or even the son of God, we are all mortals, we born, we live and we die the same way.

At this moment and until proven otherwise we only have one life, so use it wisely and use it in benefit of others. It can look silly, but if you make 3 people smile everyday for sure you will be happy.


This assumes that Jesus even existed. More likely the stories were all "feel good" stories trying to improve man at the time, with no bearing in reality of the people depicted in the stories. It was then when political people got involved and took over because they saw the power of people's emotions when they "believe" in something. They knew this power was the greatest, and those that could control this emotion could control the whole of man. 600 years after the stories surfaced, they finally decided to put together a collection of parables, which some people started taking literally. Some people today still try to interpret those stories as having basis in fact, and go off chasing windmills like Don Quixote... and some of us seem to encourage this waste of time by talk of "possibilities".

At this moment and until proven otherwise we only have one life, so use it wisely and use it in benefit of others. It can look silly, but if you make 3 people smile everyday for sure you will be happy.


I do exactly that at my place of work. Making people around me smile makes me happy too. Altruistic, sure. But I do this even as a non-believer. I don't require faith to enjoy making people happy.

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Message 1165514 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 15:07:11 UTC - in response to Message 1165500.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 15:15:43 UTC

Josephus Flavius, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII,63-64,XX,200
Der Babylonishe Talmud, VII-181
Letter to his son by Mara bar Sapion, in G.Theissen, A.Merz, The historical Jesus, Italian edition, Queriniana, Brescia, 2008
Plinius the younger, Epistula ad Traianum, 10,96
Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Annales, 15,44,2-5
Gaius Svetonius Tranquillus, Vita Claudii 25, in Vita Dodecarum Caesarum

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Message 1165529 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 16:37:56 UTC - in response to Message 1165514.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 16:53:30 UTC

Josephus Flavius, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII,63-64,XX,200


Lived 37 A.D. to 100 A.D. A spiritual priest and so called "scholar". Allegedly wrote that Jesus was the Messiah. No actual texts from him have been found confirming this meeting with Jesus. Like Jesus, the stories of Josephus were written much later, and Josephus was born after Jesus died.

Der Babylonishe Talmud, VII-181


The Babylonian Talmud. None of the transcripts actually refer to Jesus by name. They mention a Yeshu which some scholars believe to be in reference to Jesus. Not reliable enough to confirm existence.

Letter to his son by Mara bar Sapion, in G.Theissen, A.Merz, The historical Jesus, Italian edition, Queriniana, Brescia, 2008


The "letters to his son by Mara" are shown to be written around 73 A.D. to sometime in 3rd century. It is estimated that Jesus died around 33 A.D. Not even close enough to be considered a factual telling.

Plinius the younger, Epistula ad Traianum, 10,96


Believed to have existed between 61 A.D. and 110 A.D., which places his birth around 28 years after Jesus' death. Certainly not possible to confirm the existence at such a late point in time.

Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Annales, 15,44,2-5


Lived 56 A.D. to 117 A.D. The texts allegedly referencing Jesus were edited some 56 years afterword, making this highly suspect as evidence of existence.

Gaius Svetonius Tranquillus, Vita Claudii 25, in Vita Dodecarum Caesarum


This guy is the modern day equivalent of The National Enquirer. He wrote biographies of Roman Emperors and he recorded details other historians considered too scandalous, too private, or too trivial to be considered factual.

Also, he lived from 70 A.D. to about 130-140 A.D. Far to late to consider any stories as a personal telling of Jesus (1 A.D. - 33 A.D.).


Next please.

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Message 1165535 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 16:55:24 UTC

So you don't believe that Christ existed as a man in history. Then explain to me the existence of Christianity. How come so many men in the world believe in Christ? Who invented him? The Apostle Paul?
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Message 1165540 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 17:03:50 UTC - in response to Message 1165535.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 17:25:29 UTC

So you don't believe that Christ existed as a man in history. Then explain to me the existence of Christianity. How come so many men in the world believe in Christ? Who invented him? The Apostle Paul?


The man's name was Jesus of Nazareth. Christ is a title given to the Messiah. There's always the possibility that a man named Jesus lived, but evidence is hard to come by because he was a man of the people, so not many factual records were kept.

Are you suggesting that because Christianity exists, that it must be based off a real life person, and because Christianity is the largest religion that this validates him as the Christ? Certainly such an assertion requires more evidence than a cult following.

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Message 1165548 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 17:21:22 UTC
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 17:22:34 UTC

You haven't answered my question. Who invented the Christ who died on a cross to save mankind?. How come Palestinian fishermen like Peter and other apostles gave birth to Christianity? They went to Rome, the capital of the Roman empire, and defeated the Roman power. Christianity spread to the world and gave rise to art, music and literature. Without Christianity we would not have had Bach, Dante, Michelangelo, Milton, Raffaello, Shakespeare and other giants. How did this all happen without a Christ?
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Message 1165552 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 17:28:25 UTC - in response to Message 1165548.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 17:35:48 UTC

Actually I did answer your question.

Your response seems to confirm that you are suggesting that merely because numerous people have committed their lives to the idea of Christianity, that this somehow confirms the existence of a man.

The story of Jesus is a great story of a single man who overcomes the odds and changes the world. Many stories use similar concepts and we all enjoy them so much because they fill us with hope. Just like the tale of Moses is a great story of washing away the old and making way for new life.

The whole idea behind parables is that the facts of the story aren't important so long as you take the moral or point of the story.

The problem with Christianity is that believers require the parables to be based in truth or fact or it would break people's faith. Some go so far as to try to interpret the Bible literally. Others try to re-interpret the Bible based upon what they know in the present and apply it to the past.

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Message 1165554 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 17:35:00 UTC - in response to Message 1165552.

I am simply asking if Christianity, which exists,since two thousand years could exists without Christ.
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Message 1165555 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 17:37:41 UTC - in response to Message 1165554.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 17:41:35 UTC

Yes. Christianity can exist for a million years without being based in fact or Jesus ever having existed. Judaism has existed longer than Christianity and their stories are just as suspect.

That's the power of belief.

Christianity likely wouldn't have lasted long if it weren't for the Holy Crusades forcing people to become believers, or Christianity assimilating pagan concepts and ideals to help their conversion process of pagans into Christians.

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Message 1165557 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 17:47:17 UTC - in response to Message 1165555.

Christianity is spreading in Africa and Latin America without any crusade.People believe in Christ because his message is a message of love, despite any theology.
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Message 1165562 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 18:00:40 UTC - in response to Message 1165557.

It's spreading in those areas due to believers telling spreading the word and indoctrinating them into the religion.

Meanwhile, non-believers are the fastest growing group in all developed nations.

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Message 1165565 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 18:12:57 UTC - in response to Message 1165562.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 18:13:44 UTC

I think instead that people feel a desire of God. This is no only in Christian lands but also in Muslim and Hindu lands. Communism tried to eradicate faith in Russia and Eastern Europe, now it is even stronger. I see Muslim people praying in the streets of Milano since they don't have a mosque. I have seen prof. Abdus Salam, a Nobel prize winner at the International Center for Theoretical Physics which now bears his name in Trieste retiring to his room to pray on his carpet oriented to Mecca.
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Message 1165576 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 18:35:09 UTC - in response to Message 1165565.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 18:53:13 UTC

People who feel oppressed or enslaved (or convinced that they are) are easily sold on the promises of salvation, forgiveness, and perceptions of love and peace, and many are gullible enough to believe this can only come from divinity. Intelligent people are also capable of getting lost in over-rationalizing without critical thinking. Belief is not proof or evidence of fact.

Message 1165583 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 18:44:35 UTC

Christianity/Religion has Beget Evil.
The Scientific Method has Beget Evil.

Christianity/Religion has Beget Good.
The Scientific Method has Beget Good.

Destruction
Creation

Life
Death

A=B=C

Star

Dust

Dull
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Message 1165585 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 18:45:48 UTC

Here are two excellent book titles, that explain a lot how were got where we are. They are both a really good read, and very informative. Most people have no idea, but have played a 2000 year old game of telephone, and got a lot of the original intent wrong. (Not that the original intent was right. It really breaks down to how you want to live your life, which is your own choice.)

Misquoting Jesus

and

How to Read the Bible

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Message 1165588 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 18:55:28 UTC - in response to Message 1165583.

The Scientific Method has Beget Evil.


I'm still waiting for this to be proven true.

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Message 1165607 - Posted: 26 Oct 2011, 20:31:37 UTC - in response to Message 1165540.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2011, 20:38:44 UTC

So you don't believe that Christ existed as a man in history. Then explain to me the existence of Christianity. How come so many men in the world believe in Christ? Who invented him? The Apostle Paul?


The man's name was Jesus of Nazareth. Christ is a title given to the Messiah. ...


The "Jesus of the crucified by Pontius Pilate" could not have been called Jesus of Nazareth in that day. There was no Nazareth until many years later.

Much more plausible is that Jesus was an Essenes. That religious sect spawned a Nazarean sect much later (see Wikipedia: Essenes Location and Theology). That also fits with the story of his time in "The Wilderness" - An isolated Essenes monastery/commune?...

An interesting history is given on Essene Chronology. A critical appraisal of the history behind Christianity is given on The Story of Jesus - Fact or Fiction.


Also note that some of the ideas, or "memes", in Christianity have strong similarities to those of the Zoroastrians and Egyptians from long before.


It is all a question of belief.

There is indeed a very troubled St Paul in amongst the conversion to Christianity!... Note the comment at the end of that article:

Paul was nearly a contemporary of Jesus, yet he hardly mentions Jesus at all, being far more concerned with his own thoughts and deeds. Paul's vision of salvation has become the Church's too. Paul's undoubted influence leads to suggestion that the Gospels were written or edited to Paul's agenda. It is ironic to think that in saving Christianity Paul very nearly destroyed Jesus.



So, my brief summary is that most likely there was a "Jesus", but not of the romanticised form presented in today's 'official' bibles. Today's story and Christianity are largely the work of St Paul and later the politics at the First Council of Nicaea...

Thus, we have (a) God in the image of Man and his politics?...


Keep searchin',
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