Do I hear the sound of a riot?

Message boards : Number crunching : Do I hear the sound of a riot?

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Author	Message
Sten-Arne Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 1 Nov 08 Posts: 2688 Credit: 7,696,725 RAC: 23,691	Message 1005615 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 8:01:13 UTC
	Ok, I admit that this latest stuff with quota doesn't work as intended. The main problem is that it never resets the "Number of tasks today" value back to 0. Not resetting that value is an effective way to grind the big crunchers to a halt fast, and the small crunchers to a halt later on. There seems to be other problems too with this "upgrade", but IMO the biggest problem is the "Number of tasks today" issue. Please, fix this before the rioting gets totally out of hands. ____________ /The grumpy old Swede. "I'm so old, that 98% of all trees in the forest, are younger than I am"
	ID: 1005615 ·

msattler Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 34161 Credit: 344,866,941 RAC: 548,063	Message 1005617 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 8:07:42 UTC
	No riot.......just a lot of unhappiness from folks who have contributed long and hard for the project and are now being shuttered out. I being one. And I can only imagine how many set-and-forget hosts have been trashed that may or may not ever come back to productive crunching. Forgive me...or not.....for being so vocal about the project I care so deeply about. ____________ ****** "Ask not, what your kitty can do for you. Ask what you can do for your kitty." As it is kitten, so shall it be done.
	ID: 1005617 ·

Francesco Forti Send message Joined: 24 May 00 Posts: 267 Credit: 115,624,223 RAC: 93,646	Message 1005621 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 8:13:52 UTC - in response to Message 1005615.
	Not resetting that value is an effective way to grind the big crunchers to a halt fast, and the small crunchers to a halt later on. Not only. Not resetting that value accumulates a lot of WUs ready to be sent in SETI's disks. Now: Results ready to send 100,558 FF ____________
	ID: 1005621 ·

WinterKnight Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6817 Credit: 17,138,588 RAC: 26,591	Message 1005622 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 8:16:49 UTC
	Don't think there will be a riot. A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. Andy Worth is heading in that direction I will nominate him as the UK representative.
	ID: 1005622 ·

jravin Send message Joined: 25 Mar 02 Posts: 717 Credit: 61,334,150 RAC: 70,448	Message 1005672 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 11:54:38 UTC
	You are damned right there are unhappy people - me, for one. These folks implemented serious changes on the server side with NO warning, and no explanation of what they were supposed to do. And the changes don't seem to work at all, and they haven't acknowledged it or rolled back to the last working server side. I have 2 machines which have gotten only a handful of MB WUs in the past 8 days, with lots of bogus error messages, as many of you have(n't). They are running dry (one went dry 3-4 days ago, except for AP). And in the future are we to be limited to 100 WUs/day for each app, w/o regard to how powerful each machine is? Or what does the "Application Details" mean? Any sane s/w op has some sort of doc of what changes are for (in writing, not in someone's head). And should publish them for comments, or, at least, so users will know what is going on. And I don't want to hear about how hard the folks at Berkeley work - I know that, and it is irrelevant. YOU DON'T SCREW AROUND WITH A PROJECT LIKE SETI WITHOUT HAVING A BACKUP PLAN - there are too many "customers" here, it's not a private project with a handful of users. PLEASE, guys, rethink how you are doing this!!!! ____________
	ID: 1005672 ·

Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 1491 Credit: 62,754,132 RAC: 87,580	Message 1005675 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 12:00:38 UTC - in response to Message 1005622.
	A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. This problem has nothing to do with BOINC, its only the seti@home project that has the problem. ____________
	ID: 1005675 ·

Raistmer Volunteer developer Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 16 Jun 01 Posts: 2546 Credit: 25,699,617 RAC: 38,931	Message 1005676 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 12:08:42 UTC - in response to Message 1005672. Last modified: 18 Jun 2010, 12:09:30 UTC
	Yeah, public relations was weak point here almost always :) IMO currently the biggest bottleneck of project is not bandwidth or server hardware, but staff. There is simple too few peoples from project side now. IMO the highest priority for SETI project now not to upgrade bandwidth or servers or to implement more advanced search algorithms as freq switching (as stated in future plans). First priority is to get more peoples as staff members. They can be paid ones (actually, it will be much better investment of donations than to buy new hardware no one can really maintain). Or to attract more students to project. Maybe some postdocs...
	ID: 1005676 ·

SciManStev Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 4296 Credit: 62,991,016 RAC: 73,206	Message 1005677 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 12:14:52 UTC - in response to Message 1005676.
	It does make it next to impossible to test new apps on this side while they are so understaffed and in the middle of an issue sea on the server side. I have worked jobs where I was doing 5 or 6 peoples jobs at once. Sometimes it is the only solution, but nothing can get done as it should. People are not meant to be stressed out like that. I wish them well, and I hope there is a way for them to get more staff. Steve ____________ Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website
	ID: 1005677 ·

Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 2866 Credit: 1,779,323 RAC: 237	Message 1005681 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 12:22:32 UTC - in response to Message 1005615. Last modified: 18 Jun 2010, 12:32:24 UTC
	Please, fix this before the rioting gets totally out of hands. But what can a poor boy do 'cept to crunch for the SETI Man? 'cause in sleepy London town there's just no place for a street fighting man. Appologies to Jaeger/Richards ____________
	ID: 1005681 ·

WinterKnight Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6817 Credit: 17,138,588 RAC: 26,591	Message 1005689 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 12:47:09 UTC - in response to Message 1005675.
	A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. This problem has nothing to do with BOINC, its only the seti@home project that has the problem. Its changes introduced badly by BOINC that are causing the Seti problems. If the BOINC devs hadn't tried to do too much in one step we probably would not be in this mess.
	ID: 1005689 ·

msattler Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 34161 Credit: 344,866,941 RAC: 548,063	Message 1005691 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 12:56:57 UTC - in response to Message 1005675.
	A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. This problem has nothing to do with BOINC, its only the seti@home project that has the problem. That's because Seti is the poster child for Boinc changes.........they are all rolled out here before they get to other projects. You didn't know that?????? ____________ ****** "Ask not, what your kitty can do for you. Ask what you can do for your kitty." As it is kitten, so shall it be done.
	ID: 1005691 ·

Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 1491 Credit: 62,754,132 RAC: 87,580	Message 1005704 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 13:53:04 UTC - in response to Message 1005691. Last modified: 18 Jun 2010, 13:53:56 UTC
	A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. This problem has nothing to do with BOINC, its only the seti@home project that has the problem. That's because Seti is the poster child for Boinc changes.........they are all rolled out here before they get to other projects. You didn't know that?????? If it was a BOINC problem then why arn't the other projects having the same problems with it to? So as it stands I'll just stick by my original statement that the problem is totally in the Seti@home project. ____________
	ID: 1005704 ·

msattler Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 34161 Credit: 344,866,941 RAC: 548,063	Message 1005706 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 13:58:46 UTC - in response to Message 1005704.
	A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. This problem has nothing to do with BOINC, its only the seti@home project that has the problem. That's because Seti is the poster child for Boinc changes.........they are all rolled out here before they get to other projects. You didn't know that?????? If it was a BOINC problem then why arn't the other projects having the same problems with it to? So as it stands I'll just stick by my original statement that the problem is totally in the Seti@home project. Read my last post......Boinc is not rolled out to all projects at once....thank God. It is 'tested' here first. And God save us. I have to stand back now and let the kitties sort it. But, I'll give one bit of apology to those who try to make it work. 'I know it's not easy, kinda like herding cats.......' Herding Cats........ ____________ ****** "Ask not, what your kitty can do for you. Ask what you can do for your kitty." As it is kitten, so shall it be done.
	ID: 1005706 ·

soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6231 Credit: 27,517,599 RAC: 8,643	Message 1005724 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 14:22:25 UTC
	Um.. isn't that what beta should be for?
	ID: 1005724 ·

WinterKnight Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6817 Credit: 17,138,588 RAC: 26,591	Message 1005725 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 14:23:02 UTC - in response to Message 1005704.
	A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. This problem has nothing to do with BOINC, its only the seti@home project that has the problem. That's because Seti is the poster child for Boinc changes.........they are all rolled out here before they get to other projects. You didn't know that?????? If it was a BOINC problem then why arn't the other projects having the same problems with it to? So as it stands I'll just stick by my original statement that the problem is totally in the Seti@home project. The Chief Developer Dr D Anderson of BOINC is also the Head person of Seti http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/sah_about.php. His desk is in the same office, so guess where he tries out all his new idea's. http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/sah_photos.php?album=classic_12_15_2005 last three pictures.
	ID: 1005725 ·

QuietDad Send message Joined: 2 Oct 99 Posts: 66 Credit: 2,673,881 RAC: 6,726	Message 1005744 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 15:08:25 UTC - in response to Message 1005725.
	Folks. The whole point of anyproject@home was to donate spare cyles of idle cpu's for research to use as THEY see fit. NEVER was it intended to be a "we supply a 24hr environment for the masses to be entertained." Yes there are problems, always has been and always will be. Its a fact of life. Were I "in charge" I would figure out the throughput the backend could handle and limit available work to that. WOuld people be miffed and move on? Yes. Would Science be better served because I had more time to analyze returned results instead of firefighting every day? Yes. From the latest TEchnical News post: I know most of you who read these updates know this already, but it bears repeating: nobody working directly on SETI@home (all 5 of us) works full time, and we all have enough other things going on that make it impossible for us to be "on call" in case of outage/emergencies. It is what it is folks. And if thats not good enough then maybe it IS time to move on. ____________
	ID: 1005744 ·

Chris S Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 19 Nov 00 Posts: 22775 Credit: 4,522,762 RAC: 5,663	Message 1005746 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 15:13:04 UTC
	Don't think there will be a riot. A mass walk-out and picketing of the chief BOINC devs desk maybe. Andy Worth is heading in that direction I will nominate him as the UK representative. I hereby also nominate Andy Worth to be my proxy candidate, and to vote and take such action as he deems fit on behalf of the UK. This affadavit sworn in the 57th year of her Majesties reign, and witnessed in the presence of Holly. (Black domestic shorthair feline) ____________ Damsel Rescuer, Kitty Patron, Raccoon Friend, Uli Fan, Julie Supporter, ES99 Admirer, PETA Member, 1st Childhood
	ID: 1005746 ·

soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6231 Credit: 27,517,599 RAC: 8,643	Message 1005766 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 16:14:20 UTC - in response to Message 1005744.
	Folks. The whole point of anyproject@home was to donate spare cyles of idle cpu's for research to use as THEY see fit. NEVER was it intended to be a "we supply a 24hr environment for the masses to be entertained." Yes there are problems, always has been and always will be. Its a fact of life. Were I "in charge" I would figure out the throughput the backend could handle and limit available work to that. WOuld people be miffed and move on? Yes. Would Science be better served because I had more time to analyze returned results instead of firefighting every day? Yes. From the latest TEchnical News post: I know most of you who read these updates know this already, but it bears repeating: nobody working directly on SETI@home (all 5 of us) works full time, and we all have enough other things going on that make it impossible for us to be "on call" in case of outage/emergencies. It is what it is folks. And if thats not good enough then maybe it IS time to move on. I have the highest respect for those doing the system administration. I have done that type of work, I understand what they are facing. I understand the inherent dismissal of the "local users"(Lusers).. and I doubt it can be done any other way. I understand things go wrong, and the panic mode that follows. I understand the "well that is what it was supposed to do.. but we did not expect this other part of it". I understand the frustration from insufficient hardware/software/resources. I understand any or all of them could walk out in disgust and turn the switch off as quickly as any power user with much more dramatic results. And if they read all this.. they must be very tempted. But As far as the users being here to "donate spare cyles of idle cpu's for research to use as THEY see fit" .. Not quite. We are here to help accomplish a common goal. People donate time effort electrical power wear and tear and often hobble together machines just to further these goals. As well as hours to try to get a bit extra. People donate money. People offer insight. And volunteer to beta test something new we did not sign up for can be agravating. Each number cruncher may only be a small part of the seti@home project.. but collectively they are a vital part of it. This is a very strange form of "entertainment". And I find that a very dismissive and patronizing term. We are here to help do a job. Many are irritated because they are being blocked from contributing as much as they have ready to give. Some like to see the pretty numbers go up. Some want bragging rights. But all of us.. Admins/developers/lusers want a bit of basic respect. Everyone here has donated to this project. EVERY ONE. That is why we get cranky when things do not go right. Because we have all invested in it. Upgrades are always needed, mishaps always happen. Fixes are never instant. But with a bit of planning, problems can be minimized. "Great ideas" can be beta tested(I am sure there are tons of volunteers for that. I TRY not to beta test any more). And no, I am no where near pulling the plug. But I do respect those that are. And a "fine then just go" attitude is NOT productive.
	ID: 1005766 ·

Q Send message Joined: 15 Jun 04 Posts: 216 Credit: 329,924 RAC: 0	Message 1005774 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 16:35:29 UTC - in response to Message 1005744.
	Ahoy, shipmates! Folks. The whole point of anyproject@home was to donate spare cyles of idle cpu's for research to use as THEY see fit. NEVER was it intended to be a "we supply a 24hr environment for the masses to be entertained." Well said. I been thinking, that one perhaps should consider about seriousness. There seem to be two dimensions, as follow. 1. SETI or any other proper scientific project is a matter to be taken seriously in general. 2. Minor, purely technical details, like my (or perhaps your?) puter’s workload for any given short period of time is not a serious thing. I can crunch something else, I can shut my puter down, I can go fishing. Anything less than a few years surely is a short period. Take it easy. Cannot see a problem here. Regards PK Finland
	ID: 1005774 ·

skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 8943 Credit: 36,717,003 RAC: 60,845	Message 1005783 - Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 16:57:19 UTC - in response to Message 1005774.
	I dont have a problem with a 100 WU limit/core. I can only do about 50 medium sized WU a day on my fast quad. I do realize that this is going to hinder the GPU crunchers but it may be necessary to allow for smaller crunchers to actually continue getting work. We need to remember this project wasnt originally about who had the most computers. I did start getting competitive as people bought faster computers then when they got cheap people bought more and more... then they small user gets behind ____________ Proud member of TSWB. End terrorism by building a school
	ID: 1005783 ·

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Message boards : Number crunching : Do I hear the sound of a riot?