Astronomers detect evidence – maybe – of matter unseen

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me@rescam.org

I do not believe in dark matter. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, is Occam's Razor. Maybe newtonian physics is not valid at very high distances and the Pioneer anomaly seems to point in this direction. I am sure Einstein would never have accepted the ideas of dark matter and dark energy. God is subtle but not malicious, he said.
Tullio

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I agree. Dark matter is an excuse for not having an explanation for the current observations in space. If there were dark matter why isnt there any around earth or our solar system? I'd assume that matter was distributed relatively smoothly across the solar system, galaxy, galactic clusters etc. Why is it that this solar system is the only place in the universe that doesnt have any.

/humor We have a dark matter gap with the Universe. we need to close the gap. /end humor

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I agree. Dark matter is an excuse for not having an explanation for the current observations in space. If there were dark matter why isnt there any around earth or our solar system? I'd assume that matter was distributed relatively smoothly across the solar system, galaxy, galactic clusters etc. Why is it that this solar system is the only place in the universe that doesnt have any.

/humor We have a dark matter gap with the Universe. we need to close the gap. /end humor

I don't think making assumptions is part of science, it's all about measuring with a hope to understanding how it all works. Dark Matter has been measured but as yet not fully understood. On that basis I don't think it can be ruled out all-together as yet. Like anything(apart from religion) I prefer to keep an open mind till all the data is in but for now why not check this out from a recent study...

Hubble reveals cosmic framework


Balveda

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I do not believe in dark matter. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, is Occam's Razor. Maybe newtonian physics is not valid at very high distances and the Pioneer anomaly seems to point in this direction. I am sure Einstein would never have accepted the ideas of dark matter and dark energy. God is subtle but not malicious, he said.
Tullio

Speaking of Occam's razor are you saying that Einstein accepted the idea of God but never dark matter? Which one do you think is easier to accept without proof? Please explain. At least with dark matter you have gravity that backs the theory.

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me@rescam.org

I agree. Dark matter is an excuse for not having an explanation for the current observations in space. If there were dark matter why isnt there any around earth or our solar system? I'd assume that matter was distributed relatively smoothly across the solar system, galaxy, galactic clusters etc. Why is it that this solar system is the only place in the universe that doesnt have any.

Or perhaps it goes along with Inflation theory. You won't notice it locally but you'll detect it far away. (Neutrinos can't be seen directly either but we detect their effects.)

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me@rescam.org

Speaking of Occam's razor are you saying that Einstein accepted the idea of God but never dark matter? Which one do you think is easier to accept without proof? Please explain. At least with dark matter you have gravity that backs the theory.

Einstein was born as a Jew, and declared his religion as "mosaic" when he accepted a chair in Berlin in 1912. He often made references to God in his writings, as the famous "God does not play dice". In his book "Subtle is the Lord" Abraham Pais writes that "if he had a God he was the God of Spinoza", that is the architect of the order in the universe. That, in my opinion, is the main reason of his opposition to quantum mechanics and its probabilistic laws. Pais writes also that in his childhood Einstein was intensely religious, then changed his point of view. He certainly was not an orthodox Jew but had strong ties with the state of Israel, whose presidency he was offered and refused. I don't think dark matter was discussed in his times, except perhaps by Fritz Zwicky in his hypothesis on "missing matter". But I was unable to find a reference to it in Einstein's writings or in writings about Einstein by other authors and biographers.

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With all due respect to everybody in this thread, it's extremely easy for all of you to post statements like that on an internet forum....

But let's be honest.

You're a layperson criticizing complex scientific research, the published studies of which you likely would have some difficulty fully understanding.

I have my own opinions on these things but I always try to keep myself in check because I realize I have no scientific training whatsoever in this field, I'm not an expert with any background in cosmology, and I don't have access to some new or as yet unknown data.

I think it's a bit silly to say definitively with confidence that the results of scientific research I don't fully understand are "wrong" just because I have an opinion based on absolutely nothing more than my own personal hunch.

BTW:
I always tend to think of this way:

I'm absolutely sure that a lot of intelligent laypersons had a good hunch that the Earth was flat for most of human history. The problem was, they weren't basing this assumption on the scientific process, just their own common sense and their personal opinions.

oky i get your point!

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We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

With all due respect to everybody in this thread, it's extremely easy for all of you to post statements like that on an internet forum....

But let's be honest.

You're a layperson criticizing complex scientific research, the published studies of which you likely would have some difficulty fully understanding.

I have my own opinions on these things but I always try to keep myself in check because I realize I have no scientific training whatsoever in this field, I'm not an expert with any background in cosmology, and I don't have access to some new or as yet unknown data.

I think it's a bit silly to say definitively with confidence that the results of scientific research I don't fully understand are "wrong" just because I have an opinion based on absolutely nothing more than my own personal hunch.

here's the problem. Great scientific minds make great big scientific mistakes all the time. So they look out at the Universe and start adding things up 1+1= 3 Hmm well thats wrong!!! they do it again. 1+1 = 3 hmmm still not right. So some brilliant scientist says ITS DARK MATTER!!! so 1+1+(dark matter)=3 see its so simple. Now go find the dark matter!!!

I believe they honestly believe what they are saying. However when looking into the night skies through a telescope one sees star in abundance and apparently planets as well. So with all the galactic light lensing and other anomalies seen in space, can we really say that this corner of the universe is completely devoid of so called dark matter. Matter that defies logic and detection? That can't be found here. or anywhere near here if we knew what we were looking for. I would almost hazard a guess that the problems occur more with intergalactic gases which block our ability to see past them before I would say, "Yes, a magical Matter is real and can't be found but has to be there because Great Scientists said so." perhaps someone that isn't a tool scientist, much like Einstein, will step up and explain away this silly notion of magical matter.

I recall reading and hearing about a Californian or a Canadian(I get the places confused) that explained away the 11 or 13 dimensional theory that theorists believe is the best guess at the universe. He went on to explain(in my words) that its just to complicated to be workable

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

There is a webcast of a conference on dark matter on the Jet Propulsion Laboratory site at 7 pm Pacific Standard Time. Unfortunately, that is 4 am tomorrow morning for me.
Tullio

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There is a webcast of a conference on dark matter on the Jet Propulsion Laboratory site at 7 pm Pacific Standard Time. Unfortunately, that is 4 am tomorrow morning for me.
Tullio

See the link for Webcast on this page.

Yes, and it is 03:00 a.m. for me!

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I recall reading and hearing about a Californian or a Canadian(I get the places confused)

One is locally sunny and warm in December. The other is not.

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me@rescam.org

a Californian or a Canadian(I get the places confused

Yeah, I get those places mixed up all the time too.

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Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein

I agree. Dark matter is an excuse for not having an explanation for the current observations in space. If there were dark matter why isnt there any around earth or our solar system? I'd assume that matter was distributed relatively smoothly across the solar system, galaxy, galactic clusters etc. Why is it that this solar system is the only place in the universe that doesnt have any.

/humor We have a dark matter gap with the Universe. we need to close the gap. /end humor

I don't think making assumptions is part of science, it's all about measuring with a hope to understanding how it all works. Dark Matter has been measured but as yet not fully understood. On that basis I don't think it can be ruled out all-together as yet. Like anything(apart from religion) I prefer to keep an open mind till all the data is in but for now why not check this out from a recent study...

Hubble reveals cosmic framework


Balveda

This statement about scientific assumptions is a pervasive perspective in the world community and it is completely bogus. Examples span from this little thread to the man-made global warming hoax. The essence of the scientific method involves making objective, quantitative measurements AND using those data to test one or more proposed theory. A physical theory begins life as a set of assumptions. With time, ingenuity, and hardwork, the assumption evolves, transcending into a predictive description of nature. Although one cannot prove the truth of a theory, one can test it so thoroughly that can be trusted.

Furthermore, Einstein or anyone else is (usually) free to believe whatever he/she likes. But science, unlike religion, is founded on testable theories that can successfully predict physical responses. So whether someone believes in dark-matter or not, or global-warming or not, is totally irrelevant to objective observers (as opposed to politicians and socialists who can gain power by manipulating the masses with fear and nonsense).

... the man-made global warming hoax. The essence of the scientific method involves making objective, quantitative ...

And your conclusive scientific evidence of hoax is...?

The Man-Made Global 'Warming' is more a case of uniquely rapid heating. You evidence contradicting that is what?

(Please start a new thread to discuss. Fatalists please shoot yourselves or simply jump off the planet NOW.)

Regards,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Nah. Starting a new thread on global warming would be akin to participating in the irksome, boorish arguments that try to 'prove' the existence of a 'God' using science. Looking at both the supporting and counter-supporting evidence, I have decided there is no solid physical evidence of man-made global warming of any consequence on a global scale, and that the integrity of the process has been corrupted. I have become very suspicious of the supporters of the GW hoax, not just the politicians, but also the politically correct 'scientists'. They each have an agenda (or are likely to have one). Even the purist Zealots don't realize they have formed what the conservative pundits call a new religion.

That is not to say that 'we' don't waste energy nor that 'we' shouldn't try to use energy effectively and preserve and understand nature in general. But that is a different, less sexy argument, one that doesn't have that fat oaf AlGore riding in on his while stallion (read private jet) to any fee-garnering event to give a bombastic speech employing the most recent pseudoscience to rally the troops, etc. etc. You get the idea. The world has gone crazy!

I completely agree, the oceans have enough capacity to buffer any excess green house gases. I think global warming due to green house effect is equivalent to those scary stories we tell to children, so as to prevent them from doing bad things. The changing magnetic fields are the ones responsible for accelerated melting of ice , one just needs to look at magnetic properties of water to get the answer.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=50340&nowrap=true#844212

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We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy