This was my original post...less one line...

I got an email from my dad about the fact that US based oil companies are such small players that we really have no leverage in the current oil market, but are just really forced to ride along with it......some politics discussion was involved also.

I thought my response to him might be worth discussing here as well.

I started a new thread for this, because it really parallels several of the threads that are currently running, and I could not decide where the best place to post it was...........if in hindsight, it is decided that it should be combined with another thread, the mods can take care of that later if need be........

But anyway.......here is a copy of my email to Dad.....




Yeah Dad,.........It's about time our government got their heads out of their butts (and their cronies' pocketbooks) and started doing what is really the best for this country long term.....
I am a Republican....voted for Bush the first time, but not the second.....too disillusioned by the way things were going.......so I guess I am a fencesitter right now, although I will always lean toward the Republican side.........

It looks like we are facing a choice between Obama and McCain.........and I don't think either one of them has spent much air time discussing plans for getting this nation energy independent.......

So I don't know WTF to go on this one..........McCain does not really inspire me, but on the other hand, having a rather politically inexperienced Obama at the helm absolutely scares me.....

My answer...........(if ya wanna know)....

Make the last oil stand.......drill for every dang ounce of the stuff on our soil, with tight environmental restrictions on doing so, quit sending all of our cash to the Arab oil Cartel members, give 'em the bird and say bye bye.............

If most of what I have read is true (and of course, not all of it is), we could tap enough oil on our own soil to be independent within 5 years....and it would last about another 15 years......

Tax the crap out of it and put the oil companies out of business.....the government could step in and take over if the current oil companies didn't want to stay in the business 'cuz it was no longer a cash cow....(that would be one area where I would finally agree that our government SHOULD step into the private sector for the better interests of our country (and I generally DO hate big brother))......and take every single penny of those tax dollars and invest it (with careful oversight) into renewable energy research and development...(God, there are just soooooooooooo many promising technologies)....and no Haliburton no-bid giveaways, no BS....but make it illegal to ever import a drop of Arab oil ever again after the 5 year grandfather period......(ya wanna see oil prices drop?...LOL...imagine what the Cartel would do under THAT deadline...).

Under that plan, if this country cannot become energy independent after 20 years, then we go down in flames......and well deservedly so.....but better that than die a slow death from 1,000 cuts from Arab swords..........and I hope I live long enough to see us succeed.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

. . . Thank You Mark

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but better that than die a slow death from 1,000 cuts from Arab swords..........

Hmm... I'm guessing that wasn't a 'punch-line'... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Mark's comment is quite correct for the world's, currently, largest economy. If the US was oil independent, buying all it's oil needs from within it's borders then the world price of oil would plummet from the current rates. It could even be well under £100 per barrel.

This scenario could be true over a 10 year period as this recent confirmation of the scale of the Bakken Oil Formation that covers North Dakota and portions of South Dakota and Montana shows.

However, trusting politicians to look 10 years ahead, let alone 50 years, is the weak point in Mark's argument.

Making the decision to drill the US Bakken Oil is one part of a political decision, while keeping strong environmental controls in place.

The weak part will be the will to tax the oil and ring fence this tax stream and only use it for renewable energy research.

All politicians would love to get hold of these tax revenues and use them for their own pet projects. So, some legislation linked to the oil tax revenue should be passed to ensure the politicians left it for the purpose it was intended.

A lesson can be seen from Britain, when the North Sea oil came on stream in the mid 1970s.

The taxes from this bounty has been frittered away on many schemes, like improved social security benefits, over the last 30 years, and there is nothing to show for the tax income.

That was the opportunity to invest in - renewable energy, better fission nuclear electricity production (safer/more reliable), speeding up hot fusion research for electricity generation, better support for our technology and engineering industries, etc.

Now it looks like the US has been given the opportunity to become oil independent and use the time to drive efficient, reliable and sustainable reneuable electricity/power generation. That is unlike wind generation which has a sustainable load factor at best between 25% and 30% of the total time. Then these new/better technologies would be available when the oil runs low.

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

However, trusting politicians to look 10 years ahead, let alone 50 years, is the weak point in Mark's argument.

Making the decision to drill the US Bakken Oil is one part of a political decision, while keeping strong environmental controls in place.

The weak part will be the will to tax the oil and ring fence this tax stream and only use it for renewable energy research.

That is exactly part of the point I was making....the political part of the argument...

The political policies of this country need to change HERE AND NOW in a big way, and I am rather dismayed that I have found so little discussion of it among the candidates running for our highest office......

Unfortunately I have little hope that anything close to my plan will ever happen.....we will probably just continue to muddle about with the oil Cartel sucking us dry.....but I believe it is what SHOULD happen....

And I do think my scenario is a realistic one, if the cards were played as I laid them out........

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

The political policies of this country need to change HERE AND NOW in a big way, and I am rather dismayed that I have found so little discussion of it among the candidates running for our highest office......

Unfortunately I have little hope that anything close to my plan will ever happen.....we will probably just continue to muddle about with the oil Cartel sucking us dry.....but I believe it is what SHOULD happen....

And I do think my scenario is a realistic one, if the cards were played as I laid them out........

You got it right there Mark.

The UK North Sea oil is an example of an opportunity missed, and your country will repeat it on a bigger scale.

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

The political policies of this country need to change HERE AND NOW in a big way, and I am rather dismayed that I have found so little discussion of it among the candidates running for our highest office......

Unfortunately I have little hope that anything close to my plan will ever happen.....we will probably just continue to muddle about with the oil Cartel sucking us dry.....but I believe it is what SHOULD happen....

And I do think my scenario is a realistic one, if the cards were played as I laid them out........

You got it right there Mark.

The UK North Sea oil is an example of an opportunity missed, and your country will repeat it on a bigger scale.

Sadly, I suspect you are correct.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

[could you just use less oil

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

could you just use less oil

Well of course....the ultimate goal is to use as little as possible, as the supply of it is not limitless and will one day run out....we must find alternate sources of energy....and the time is NOW.
This would also drive the cost of oil down when it is used as a raw material instead of an energy source.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

yes but now, not when something has been found

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

we must find alternate sources of energy....and the time is NOW.

I'll snap my fingers and get right on it... Oh, wait, I've been ousted... ;)

(Remember all those lectures about 'instant gratification' and 'hard work'? Good luck!)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Well......I see nobody has commented on my theory for the last 4 days.......

That means either my solution is bunk......

Or nobody gives a proper rat's petoot........

Sorry, but I really thought it was a true solution.....

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Well......I see nobody has commented on my theory for the last 4 days.......

That means either my solution is bunk......

Or nobody gives a proper rat's petoot........

Sorry, but I really thought it was a true solution.....

Well, the only thing I disagreed with was the implication that you think we should tax the oil companies out of business...but I may have misunderstood your point there so I was waiting for further elaboration...but it looks like I'm going to have to break the ice.

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Well......I see nobody has commented on my theory for the last 4 days.......

That means either my solution is bunk......

Or nobody gives a proper rat's petoot........

Sorry, but I really thought it was a true solution.....

Well, the only thing I disagreed with was the implication that you think we should tax the oil companies out of business...but I may have misunderstood your point there so I was waiting for further elaboration...but it looks like I'm going to have to break the ice.

I thought I was quite clear there.......tax them to death.......and let the state take over in the interim.......
There are some areas where the 'free market' scenario must be altered to fit the best needs of the state.......otherwise both will suffer.....

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

There was an article on CNN's website about a week ago (can't find a link to it now) that discussed solar panel arrays in space, how the technology has existed since the '70s, how the government has looked into the feasibility of it, and how, with a large enough collector, there's more energy to be had than what we use currently, even over a relatively long time span.
Whichever gov't bites the bullet and funds this project first will more than likely be the world's largest energy exporters for potentially hundreds of years. It isn't done because it would cost so much with current technology that nobody is willing, or perhaps even able, to fund it. Hell, the US is already quadrobajillions in debt, let's just take out another loan from China and get it done, then balance the budget with the energy exporting profits.
Maybe we need a global coalition to get a project like this going, the political implications aside. If society is to continue on its forward march we must increase our energy use while becoming ever more responsible in how it's used and where it's coming from.
However I'm afraid this is the opposite of what's going to happen. The potential for backpedaling is very real and probable, in my mind, or at the very least continuing our path of using non-renewable or even sustainable (long-term) energy sources, which is just dumb when there's a big ball of energy sitting RIGHT THERE. LOOK, UP IN THE SKY, IT'S....ENERGY!
But no, instead we'll farm hydrogen 3 from the moon and fight with Russia and China over it, and when it's all mined out run across this same bridge of potential societal collapse unless we find another planet to strip-mine for non-renewable resources. Or perhaps the H3 could buy us enough time to finally have a collective epiphany about how we carry on.
In the end, it would be much better for humanity as a whole to embrace solar power now on a much much larger scale than to wait until the next energy crisis to hope our leaders can finally see the light.
But will we?

Edit : The buttered cat may hold promise. Or how about harnessing the Earth eating black hole the LHC will create, tie a fan on a piece of string at the edge of the event horizon so all the matter being sucked in can be tapped for energy as it blinks out of existence.

Well......I see nobody has commented on my theory for the last 4 days.......

That means either my solution is bunk......

Or nobody gives a proper rat's petoot........

Sorry, but I really thought it was a true solution.....

Well, the only thing I disagreed with was the implication that you think we should tax the oil companies out of business...but I may have misunderstood your point there so I was waiting for further elaboration...but it looks like I'm going to have to break the ice.

I thought I was quite clear there.......tax them to death.......and let the state take over in the interim.......
There are some areas where the 'free market' scenario must be altered to fit the best needs of the state.......otherwise both will suffer.....

Well the oil companies only take in 21% of what you pay at the pump, and that has to pay for all the employees, transportation costs, advertising, etc, etc, etc. 59% of what you pay at the pump goes for the purchase of crude oil, which 60% of, is coming from countries that aren't what I'd call overly friendly to the United States.

My point is that if you are blaming the oil companies for rising fuel costs, you're pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

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Well......I see nobody has commented on my theory for the last 4 days.......

That means either my solution is bunk......

Or nobody gives a proper rat's petoot........

Sorry, but I really thought it was a true solution.....

Well, the only thing I disagreed with was the implication that you think we should tax the oil companies out of business...but I may have misunderstood your point there so I was waiting for further elaboration...but it looks like I'm going to have to break the ice.

I thought I was quite clear there.......tax them to death.......and let the state take over in the interim.......
There are some areas where the 'free market' scenario must be altered to fit the best needs of the state.......otherwise both will suffer.....

Well the oil companies only take in 21% of what you pay at the pump, and that has to pay for all the employees, transportation costs, advertising, etc, etc, etc. 59% of what you pay at the pump goes for the purchase of crude oil, which 60% of, is coming from countries that aren't what I'd call overly friendly to the United States.

My point is that if you are blaming the oil companies for rising fuel costs, you're pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

Wouldn't it be be a good idea to win the hearts and minds of the countries that aren't overly friendly to the United States. There must be some reason for the unfriendliness.......

Or how about harnessing the Earth eating black hole the LHC will create, tie a fan on a piece of string at the edge of the event horizon so all the matter being sucked in can be tapped for energy as it blinks out of existence.

Now THAT is creative thinking.................
It could work..............

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

There must be some reason for the unfriendliness.......

Ya'll are just jealous of our national debt... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Wouldn't it be be a good idea to win the hearts and minds of the countries that aren't overly friendly to the United States. There must be some reason for the unfriendliness.......

Exactly what we did when we liberated Iraq...

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