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Trying juveniles as adults
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Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
I'm not sure commision of a crime is really about knowing right from wrong. Unless a person is completely psychotic, he or she probably knows that violent crimes are wrong. Even a four year old who sneaks a cookie out of the cookie jar knows he is not supposed to do this. He simply gives into the impulse because he is not mature enough to weigh all of the consequences and ramifications. He is not mature enough to put himself in his parents' shoes and understand all the many and complex reasons why he should resist snagging a treat. Perhaps he even gets a thrill from the theft. Actually, prosecution of any crime is dependant on showing that the accused knows right from wrong. In criminal prosecutions (of adults or juveniles), the prosecutor must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the accused both: did the prohibited act (or omitted doing what was required), and that the act was done with a requisite "state of mind" specified under the law, e.g. that the person "intentionally" or "knowingly" did the act. That is why the mental defense is in use in American jurisprudence: if a person does not understand that what was done was wrong, they can not be convicted. The theory behind treating juveniles differently is that they have not matured enough to understand the difference between right and wrong. When it can be demonstrated to a juvenile court judge that the child did understand right and wrong, and justice otherwise requires, a juvenile may be tried as an adult. |
Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
Yes, some "thing" or some group of factors drove these two young people to commit an act that should never happen to anyone in any place or at any time, but the point of this thread is not to try Blurf's assailants out of court. The point is to discuss, in general, if we should stick to our society's rules and customs about treating juveniles and adults differently in the criminal justice system. [Edit]:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. As for something driving them, well that is simply too vague--hunger drives us to eat and fatigue drives us to sleep, so to speak. Juveniles should be (and are, when the system is working) treated according to their own level of culpability. If, as happens in some street gangs, a "child" is recruited to commit violent crimes because of an expectation that the juvenile justice system will be more lenient than the adult courts, and the child clearly knows what is going on and the morality of the act, then should such a juvenile be automatically given more lenient treatment simply because of age? |
Blurf Send message Joined: 2 Sep 06 Posts: 8962 Credit: 12,678,685 RAC: 0 |
Just heard from the authorities... One of the suspects said in the interrogation that "a cripple is an easy mark. How could I turn down the chance?" That signifies (to me) experience and a true lack of caring about what they did. |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
hunger drives us to eat and fatigue drives us to sleep Being hungry with nothing to eat, and being fatigued with nowhere to sleep, drives us to crime... ;) It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11 |
hunger drives us to eat and fatigue drives us to sleep Sometimes that is true. It can also drive us to improve our lives. |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
Just heard from the authorities... You made a point: They don't care. I think they aren't even aware that it is egally and morally wrong, because they have learnt to do not care anymore. I met such individuals myself when I worked as a store detective a couple years ago. Those I met (children from either level of society) just shrugged when I caught them, not caring about consequences: at home there were none, and the trial before the juvenile court was just a necessary inconveniencce, mostly because of (an original quote, translated by me): "the blabber of some old morons who need to feel important". School? They just skipped entire weeks. "We won't get any chance after school anyway, so why should we finish it in the first place?" Consequences in school? Hah! In classes with about 30 pupils one more or less is hardly noticed. Consequences at home? None at all, because their parents were either too busy with their jobs or with mourning at themselves to care about such behavior. Or there were beatings anyway so that one trouble more or less didn't matter. So where and how should they have learned to be respectful, helpful, empathic? With no good examples at all? With no opportunity to learn that every deed causes a consequence? In my opinion, most nowadays sociopaths are MADE by circumstances caused by society. And that's STILL no excuse for such deeds. But some of these individuals get easily caught by people who do actually (pretend to) care, and who teach them that to be helpful is weak, and only the strong will rule, and who mislead them with rules like "do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them", or "If someone in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy", or "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him". I heard these rules years ago when overhearing those juvenile shoplifters and their "friends" talking to each other - and learnt quite recently that these rules are borrowed from the teachings of Anton LaVey. :( Account frozen... |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
Sometimes that is true. It can also drive us to improve our lives. . . . or, it can drive 'bad people' to bring down other peoples lives... <-- I know because it happened to me... ;) (There are two sides to every coin, unfortunately, people only want to see the side they are on.) It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19093 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Maybe one solution is to only have one set of courts, do away with the distinction of separate juvenile and adult courts. Then in the initial stages determine if the accused is capable of distinguishing right from wrong etc. and proceed from there. |
John Clark Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0 |
Assuming the individual is convicted of the act they were accused, and they have a track record of the crime. Then is the punishment (adult or otherwise) of prison, where the only differences between crimes is length of time served, seems to be the only option. Why not bring back some of the old fashion ones which lead to a real punishment, like the stocks or birching? The former stocks) leads to public humiliation and seen to be uncool! The latter gives the physical pain of being caught. The learning lesson is stop or not be caught. The downside is resentment and the escalation of crime, for those badly damaged individuals. It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues |
Knightmare Send message Joined: 16 Aug 04 Posts: 7472 Credit: 94,252 RAC: 0 |
Assuming the individual is convicted of the act they were accused, and they have a track record of the crime. Why are we allowing people to have a " track record " of crime in the first place??? Air Cold, the blade stops; from silent stone, Death is preordained Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
Assuming the individual is convicted of the act they were accused, and they have a track record of the crime. That also often strucks me. Either they have been punished enough for / rehabilitated enough from the former crime, then there should be no track record at all - or the police suspects beforehand that the offender will sure do their crime another time, despite of having gone through the former punishment (or, dspite of being rehabilitated) and keeps the record for that reason... Account frozen... |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Just heard from the authorities... Yes..it could be taken that way..or it could be the typical response of a very immature person who doesn't quite understand what they have done..or as often happens with teenagers..understands very well what they have done but can't bear to admit it and so dig themselves deeper into a hole. Typical teenage 'f*** you' bravado. I see it everyday. :( Reality Internet Personality |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
Typical teenage 'f*** you' bravado. I see it everyday. I see it everyday too, but usually not from teenagers... ;) It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
Clyde C. Phillips, III Send message Joined: 2 Aug 00 Posts: 1851 Credit: 5,955,047 RAC: 0 |
The parents should also be punished. They didn't bring their kids up right and they should go to jail. Maybe those kids were beat up for some small infraction or none at all, and then they took it out on the innocent public. The parents are often more responsible for the kids crimes than the kids. |
Angela Send message Joined: 16 Oct 07 Posts: 13131 Credit: 39,854,104 RAC: 31 |
Yes..it could be taken that way..or it could be the typical response of a very immature person who doesn't quite understand what they have done..or as often happens with teenagers..understands very well what they have done but can't bear to admit it and so dig themselves deeper into a hole. Typical teenage 'f*** you' bravado. I see it everyday. :( Yes, and since this was witnessed by a police officer, that young person's words can (and most certainly will) be used against him in a court of law. All the more reason to have separate systems for juveniles, run by professionals who understand that hurtful words are not necessarily indicative of what that young person is thinking and feeling. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19093 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Yes..it could be taken that way..or it could be the typical response of a very immature person who doesn't quite understand what they have done..or as often happens with teenagers..understands very well what they have done but can't bear to admit it and so dig themselves deeper into a hole. Typical teenage 'f*** you' bravado. I see it everyday. :( But shouldn't those professionals, that you speak of, be available to all immature persons accused of a crime. Is it not an injustice that expensive help be available to one teenager and not to another one year older when the pair of them are accused of committing the same crime. And that the juvenile one could get a more lenient sentence because he/she was tried in a different court with different rules. |
Angela Send message Joined: 16 Oct 07 Posts: 13131 Credit: 39,854,104 RAC: 31 |
But shouldn't those professionals, that you speak of, be available to all immature persons accused of a crime. I think that is a really good point and I'm sorry that I don't have an equally good answer. I would hope that a competent defense attorney assigned to defend a nineteen year old would recognize that there might be an issue of cognitive and emotional immaturity, have some psychological batteries done, and use the resulting data accordingly. For that matter, I would hope that a defense attorney would bring up the issues of cognitive age and emotional maturity in ANY "adult" case where he or she suspected it might have relevance. With my current work caseload, I certainly serve many children who demonstrate cognitive, social and linguistic skills well below expectations for their chronological ages. Someday they will be "adults" functioning as children. I would hope, that should any of them end up in the criminal justice system, their developmental issues would be considered in all aspects of their trials. I certainly do think it is quite possible that an 18 year old tried in juvenile court could end up with more help and a more lenient sentence than a 19 year old tried for the same offense in adult court. I cannot imagine any system in which there would not be this wishy-washy grey cut-off age that would complicate matters. Are there any defense attorneys out there? Any prosecutors? How do you legal eagles handle sticky situations like this one? |
Hev Send message Joined: 4 Jun 05 Posts: 1118 Credit: 598,303 RAC: 0 |
The UN brought out the Convention of the Rights of the Child in 1989 and stated that a child means every human being under the age of eighteen years. UN Convention of the Rights of the Child Children are at the very bottom of the heap in terms of human rights. If they transgress they are treated more harshly than an adult would be. They do not have the developmental maturation that an adult would have and are demonised by a society which projects many of it's fears upon them. They have no control over their lives or the start they have had in life. Yes, some children are born more resilient than others and can overcome early abuse and function normally in society, but if you look backwards at children that have gone wrong you will probably find that most of them had difficulties in their early lives. Human Rights Watch has also put out a report on children in the U.S. who have been tried and sentenced as adults Thousands of Children Sentenced to Life without Parole This is heartbreaking... |
Red Atomic Send message Joined: 22 Jun 99 Posts: 2624 Credit: 840,335 RAC: 0 |
The parents should also be punished. They didn't bring their kids up right and they should go to jail. Maybe those kids were beat up for some small infraction or none at all, and then they took it out on the innocent public. The parents are often more responsible for the kids crimes than the kids. What??? So we will now have public witch hunts for parents of Juvenile criminals. Don't blame the Parents, Blame the Criminals Join Calm Chaos |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
If we are to treat minors as adults for criminal acts, why not treat them as adults in other walks of life? Let them drive cars, buy alcohol, bear arms (in the US at least), fight for their country, get married, vote ... I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
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