The factory owners need to pay at least a living wage (i.e. housing, food, clothing... for a typical family) or they are socially irresponsible....

But...the problem is that there are SO MANY interpretations of what a " living wage " is.

I make $9.25 an hour...and I live well enough to suit my needs. My bills are paid and I have a roof and food.

A guy working for GM making 50 bucks an hour ( for doing the same job I do ) will sit there and piss and moan about not making enough money.

Here's a hint....get rid of the boat....and the 3 cars...and all the snowmobiles and other such toys.....

Anyone can " make a living " if they spend within their means. If I can live well on 9 bucks an hour...someone complaining about not making enough when they make 6 times as much as I do....I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

The factory owners need to pay at least a living wage (i.e. housing, food, clothing... for a typical family) or they are socially irresponsible....

But...the problem is that there are SO MANY interpretations of what a " living wage " is.

I make $9.25 an hour...and I live well enough to suit my needs. My bills are paid and I have a roof and food.

A guy working for GM making 50 bucks an hour ( for doing the same job I do ) will sit there and piss and moan about not making enough money.

Here's a hint....get rid of the boat....and the 3 cars...and all the snowmobiles and other such toys.....

Anyone can " make a living " if they spend within their means. If I can live well on 9 bucks an hour...someone complaining about not making enough when they make 6 times as much as I do....I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for.

Try that in California, but I understand your point.


.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Yes, labor is not worth much without capital, but then again, capital is not worth much without labor either. Both are needed to actually make anything in any quantity.

Exactly. Managers, shareholders, and brokers aren't "locusts," they aren't "corrupt" by their nature, and they are mutually beneficial.

That by no means suggests that union scale is worth the labor they do, or that the UAW can't be doing what they expect GM to do: paying more than the labor is worth.

Of course they are locusts. You don't have to gamble with parts of companies, with the fates of thousands if you wish to invest - and stock-broking is gambling, just like poker. Stock-broking is no real trade: they change prices by rumor, and spread rumor to change prices.
You don't have to pay a manager 24 Millions a year for a job worth not even 1% of that amount, while grudging the workers a salary of 24K a year for a job worth at least 30K.
Well, these brokers, holdings and shareholders are soo beneficial, that they buy and close down factories just on a whim, even though these factories run well, just because they don't fit into their fantasies of a real win. They don't mind the fates of the people involved. To them, people are not humans, but mere numbers, costs, risks. Posts in a database. How beneficial of them!
People like them are what I call in-human. Calling them locusts is even insulting these ever-hungry insects (though being the closest comparison). These people are worse than locusts.

If I had enough money to be able to invest, I'd invest in a factory of my choice as a kind of "silent partnership". I would officially not be involved in that factory - but would participate in their wins and losses due to my investments.

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Account frozen...

Yes, labor is not worth much without capital, but then again, capital is not worth much without labor either. Both are needed to actually make anything in any quantity.

Exactly. Managers, shareholders, and brokers aren't "locusts," they aren't "corrupt" by their nature, and they are mutually beneficial.

That by no means suggests that union scale is worth the labor they do, or that the UAW can't be doing what they expect GM to do: paying more than the labor is worth.

Of course they are locusts. You don't have to gamble with parts of companies, with the fates of thousands if you wish to invest - and stock-broking is gambling, just like poker. Stock-broking is no real trade: they change prices by rumor, and spread rumor to change prices.

Wow. You continually say really stupid things, but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you type. You have no idea what you are talking about, yet you can't be bothered to learn about it.

Yep, the stock market is all a scam, a giant pyramid scheme, designed to make brokers rich. That's all it is. Get the word out will you? Help save us? Save GM from the eeeevil Rick Wagoner and the market that gives it the operating capital to run?

Oh, wait, then all yer pals wouldn't have jobs. I know, we'll divide the salaries of ALL of the managers up among them!! I mean, they'll each only get a few hundred bucks, and their jobs will be gone, but at least the eeeevil locusts had to share, right?

You don't have to pay a manager 24 Millions a year for a job worth not even 1% of that amount, while grudging the workers a salary of 24K a year for a job worth at least 30K.

No, that's true. You don't. You don't have to do any of this. Why? Because you've already noted, you aren't capable of doing so. You won't risk your money. GM, on the other hand, does. First, GM pays people what they are worth to GM. Not what YOU think they are worth to GM, what GM thinks they are worth to GM. Second, GM actually does all the things necessary to build cars and make money. The UAW sits around and watches their numbers dwindle and demands that they should be paid more.

You see, no one could care less what you think a manager is worth, nor could they care less what you think a worker is worth. Both the manager and the worker fought like hell to get paid as much as they could. GM fought like hell to pay as little as they could. When they came to an agreement, both parties signed up.

You say that manager's job isn't worth "not even 1% of that amount," you tell me they aren't needed, yet you continually give me excuses on why these precious workers just don't dispense with them and be done--building and selling their own cars. Note: they don't, and further, they CAN'T.

Well, these brokers, holdings and shareholders are soo beneficial, that they buy and close down factories just on a whim, even though these factories run well, just because they don't fit into their fantasies of a real win. They don't mind the fates of the people involved. To them, people are not humans, but mere numbers, costs, risks. Posts in a database. How beneficial of them!
People like them are what I call in-human. Calling them locusts is even insulting these ever-hungry insects (though being the closest comparison). These people are worse than locusts.

Ah, yes, your precious ideology above all. There's no possibility that anyone could ever disagree with your assessment of when a factory makes money or not. Whether they consider the effects of their actions or not. Oh, no. That couldn't possibly be, right Thorin? I mean you obviously know what is best for everyone: YOU know how all people make trillions of decisions each day and the outcome isn't as you wish, so they're locusts. YOU, the all-seeing business scientist Thorin, understand GAAP and the tax code intricately, and therefore you must know EXACTLY who must be paid what, what plants must be opened, what plants must be closed, and how.

Your "locusts" up there? Irrespective of your blithering foolishness, what they actually do is provide all the things that the UAW is incapable of doing for themselves--they give the UAW jobs. Something, as I've demonstrated, that those precious workers aren't capable of doing. Maybe, just maybe, "you [DO] have to pay a manager 24 Millions a year for a job worth not even 1% of that amount," so that 600,000 or more other people can have jobs.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Yes, labor is not worth much without capital, but then again, capital is not worth much without labor either. Both are needed to actually make anything in any quantity.

Exactly. Managers, shareholders, and brokers aren't "locusts," they aren't "corrupt" by their nature, and they are mutually beneficial.

That by no means suggests that union scale is worth the labor they do, or that the UAW can't be doing what they expect GM to do: paying more than the labor is worth.

Of course they are locusts. You don't have to gamble with parts of companies, with the fates of thousands if you wish to invest - and stock-broking is gambling, just like poker. Stock-broking is no real trade: they change prices by rumor, and spread rumor to change prices.

Wow. You continually say really stupid things, but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you type. You have no idea what you are talking about, yet you can't be bothered to learn about it.

Yep, the stock market is all a scam, a giant pyramid scheme, designed to make brokers rich. That's all it is. Get the word out will you? Help save us? Save GM from the eeeevil Rick Wagoner and the market that gives it the operating capital to run?

Oh, wait, then all yer pals wouldn't have jobs. I know, we'll divide the salaries of ALL of the managers up among them!! I mean, they'll each only get a few hundred bucks, and their jobs will be gone, but at least the eeeevil locusts had to share, right?

You don't have to pay a manager 24 Millions a year for a job worth not even 1% of that amount, while grudging the workers a salary of 24K a year for a job worth at least 30K.

No, that's true. You don't. You don't have to do any of this. Why? Because you've already noted, you aren't capable of doing so. You won't risk your money. GM, on the other hand, does. First, GM pays people what they are worth to GM. Not what YOU think they are worth to GM, what GM thinks they are worth to GM. Second, GM actually does all the things necessary to build cars and make money. The UAW sits around and watches their numbers dwindle and demands that they should be paid more.

You see, no one could care less what you think a manager is worth, nor could they care less what you think a worker is worth. Both the manager and the worker fought like hell to get paid as much as they could. GM fought like hell to pay as little as they could. When they came to an agreement, both parties signed up.

You say that manager's job isn't worth "not even 1% of that amount," you tell me they aren't needed, yet you continually give me excuses on why these precious workers just don't dispense with them and be done--building and selling their own cars. Note: they don't, and further, they CAN'T.

Well, these brokers, holdings and shareholders are soo beneficial, that they buy and close down factories just on a whim, even though these factories run well, just because they don't fit into their fantasies of a real win. They don't mind the fates of the people involved. To them, people are not humans, but mere numbers, costs, risks. Posts in a database. How beneficial of them!
People like them are what I call in-human. Calling them locusts is even insulting these ever-hungry insects (though being the closest comparison). These people are worse than locusts.

Ah, yes, your precious ideology above all. There's no possibility that anyone could ever disagree with your assessment of when a factory makes money or not. Whether they consider the effects of their actions or not. Oh, no. That couldn't possibly be, right Thorin? I mean you obviously know what is best for everyone: YOU know how all people make trillions of decisions each day and the outcome isn't as you wish, so they're locusts. YOU, the all-seeing business scientist Thorin, understand GAAP and the tax code intricately, and therefore you must know EXACTLY who must be paid what, what plants must be opened, what plants must be closed, and how.

Your "locusts" up there? Irrespective of your blithering foolishness, what they actually do is provide all the things that the UAW is incapable of doing for themselves--they give the UAW jobs. Something, as I've demonstrated, that those precious workers aren't capable of doing. Maybe, just maybe, "you [DO] have to pay a manager 24 Millions a year for a job worth not even 1% of that amount," so that 600,000 or more other people can have jobs.

I think all the talk about Unions vs. The Big Three will soon be a moot point. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all pricing themselves out of the market.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

I think all the talk about Unions vs. The Big Three will soon be a moot point. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all pricing themselves out of the market.

...and when it comes to quality of engineering and product, they just don't get it.

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Account frozen...

I think all the talk about Unions vs. The Big Three will soon be a moot point. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all pricing themselves out of the market.

...and when it comes to quality of engineering and product, they just don't get it.

Oh, they get it all right. They just don't want to spend the money on it. After market parts sales are the way to go. Why build it to last when you can make money selling repair and replacement parts? Built in obsolescence is how they keep the market fresh. Try finding a body part like a door handle for a 1992 model. The car runs fine but those pesky door handles are necessary to pass inspection.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

I think all the talk about Unions vs. The Big Three will soon be a moot point. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all pricing themselves out of the market.

...and when it comes to quality of engineering and product, they just don't get it.

Oh, they get it all right. They just don't want to spend the money on it. After market parts sales are the way to go. Why build it to last when you can make money selling repair and replacement parts? Built in obsolescence is how they keep the market fresh. Try finding a body part like a door handle for a 1992 model. The car runs fine but those pesky door handles are necessary to pass inspection.

Point taken...

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Account frozen...

MSNBC.com


NYC cabbie group starts 2-day strike
Some drivers oppose city’s new high-tech requirements
The Associated Press
Updated: 8:28 a.m. ET Sept 5, 2007

NEW YORK - A group of taxi drivers launched a two-day strike Wednesday, right at the start of the New York Fashion Week and amid the U.S. Open tennis tournament, over what the cabbies consider intrusive new technology requirements.

The executive director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, Bhairavi Desai, said it wasn’t immediately clear how many of the city’s 13,000 taxis would be idled during the strike.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg downplayed the likelihood of widespread disruption, but the city still allowed taxis to pick up multiple separate passengers, and the transit system added buses on some airport routes. Normally, taxi drivers are allowed to pick up only one passenger or group of passengers at a time.

The alliance called the strike in the nation’s largest city to protest new rules requiring all cabs to have global positioning systems and touch-screen monitors that will let passengers pay by credit card. Some cabbies fear the GPS systems could be used to track their movements and that they could get stuck paying hefty fees for credit card processing.

“The overwhelming majority of drivers are against this system, and there are serious setbacks this system is causing drivers,” Desai said early Wednesday. She said the drivers’ group hoped the strike would persuade city officials to back off the requirement.

One-fifth of city cab drivers?
The alliance claims to represent about one-fifth of the Taxi & Limousine Commission’s 44,000 licensed drivers, but its leaders predicted a larger number of drivers would join in. However, several other groups that represent thousands of city cab drivers released statements opposing the strike, and Bloomberg predicted Tuesday that “few, if any” cabbies would strike.

The mayor’s office had no immediate comment on the situation early Wednesday. A taxi commission spokesman did not immediately return a message left on his mobile phone.

The New York Police Department assigned extra police officers to taxi garages and transportation hubs, and plainclothes officers were to ride in some taxis to guard against reprisals against cabbies who chose not to strike, police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.

The city’s cabs must have the high-tech equipment when they come up for inspection, starting Oct. 1. Taxi officials say eliminating the need for cash could increase ridership and drivers’ incomes, and that the GPS technology will be used to give drivers traffic tips and help passengers find lost items.

© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16885988/
MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2007 MSNBC.com

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

Uggh. I wish these socialist germans that are so enamored of the system that failed them had a memory that went back more than 15 years so they wouldn't advocate their own imprisoning again.....but that's what the irrational and stupid do.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Uggh. I wish these socialist germans that are so enamored of the system that failed them had a memory that went back more than 15 years so they wouldn't advocate their own imprisoning again.....but that's what the irrational and stupid do.

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

We have a winner.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Well, politicians and economical leaders are actually working close together, heck no wonder if election campaigns are relying on donations. Globalisation and shareholder value actually tend to cut wages to minimal levels. Just that it economically would make more sense if work pays out and the working population is able to afford stuff (one of the major economic risks now is that the average american is so much in debt and wages did almost not go up in the last years that a more restrictive policy on granting loans might result in a huge cutdown in mass purchase power which would hurt the economy). Actually it's all shifting toward a few percent having all the purchase power while the masses lose it.

The same goes on when it comes to companies - all in favor of the multinational companies. It would be economical way more useful to support small local companies, who create lasting employment at least the same way as huge companies who pretty often just move on after a few years, when tax relief and other benefits run out.

Uggh. I wish these socialist germans that are so enamored of the system that failed them had a memory that went back more than 15 years so they wouldn't advocate their own imprisoning again.....but that's what the irrational and stupid do.

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

Why do you think our major television networks gear their programming for the five year old mind...and the newscasters have to explain the simplest little things...? Hmmmm...like getting a lesson in algebra from a dumb blond.

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Account frozen...

Uggh. I wish these socialist germans that are so enamored of the system that failed them had a memory that went back more than 15 years so they wouldn't advocate their own imprisoning again.....but that's what the irrational and stupid do.

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

Why do you think our major television networks gear their programming for the five year old mind...and the newscasters have to explain the simplest little things...? Hmmmm...like getting a lesson in algebra from a dumb blond.

"We need to get this man to a hospital!"

"A hospital!? What is it?"

"It's a large building with lots of doctors but that's not important right now."

They have to explain it. It's in the rules.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

Right, and its WRONG on both sides. Whether that's idiot socialist Germans, or "Republican Americans" or "Democrat Americans."

However, that is what gov't does and always has done: advocate the continuation of failed plans and policies. And yes, they're all desperate and braindead.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

Right, and its WRONG on both sides. Whether that's idiot socialist Germans, or "Republican Americans" or "Democrat Americans."

However, that is what gov't does and always has done: advocate the continuation of failed plans and policies. And yes, they're all desperate and braindead.

Republicans - the party of bad ideas
Democrats- the party of no ideas.

Pick one.

Bleah. :P

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

Right, and its WRONG on both sides. Whether that's idiot socialist Germans, or "Republican Americans" or "Democrat Americans."

However, that is what gov't does and always has done: advocate the continuation of failed plans and policies. And yes, they're all desperate and braindead.

Republicans - the party of bad ideas
Democrats- the party of no ideas.

Pick one.

Bleah. :P

Yea, another Lewis Black fan!!!

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Calm Chaos Forum...Join Calm Chaos Now

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

Right, and its WRONG on both sides. Whether that's idiot socialist Germans, or "Republican Americans" or "Democrat Americans."

However, that is what gov't does and always has done: advocate the continuation of failed plans and policies. And yes, they're all desperate and braindead.

Republicans - the party of bad ideas
Democrats- the party of no ideas.

Pick one.

Bleah. :P

Yea, another Lewis Black fan!!!

Lewis Black, George Carlin, and Carlos Mencia. The Holy Trinity of comedy.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

Uggh. I wish these socialist germans that are so enamored of the system that failed them had a memory that went back more than 15 years so they wouldn't advocate their own imprisoning again.....but that's what the irrational and stupid do.

I wish these Republican Americans that are so enamored of the current administration that has failed all of us had a memory that went back more than three weeks so they wouldn't advocate a continuation of failed plans and policies....but that's what the desperate and braindead do.

I haven't noticed any Republicans typing in here, Jon. Regardless, ideas have to stand on their own merits.

Furthermore, your point is meaningless as it isn't on topic. My point was germane to the fact that the socialist germans arguing in here for more socialism have short memories of what life was like under the very system they continue to argue for. Perhaps the 'good of mankind' really isn't their goal as they purport it to be....don't you think?

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!