What happened between those points in time?
Max

The human race evolved - fought wars, survived diseases, perfected cooperation, toolmaking, fire, teaching, hunting, agriculture, and farming and the strongest and cleverest survived.

Speaking of being able to imagine the time involved, please also get the timelines right. Toolmaking, fire, hunting had been around much longer than 4500 years ago. Agriculture and farming ... those, probably just slightly longer than 4500 years, though. However, perhaps you were emphasizing perfection on each of these things, not just cooperation.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Then why mosquetos and many bugs are not evolving for hundreds of millions of years while rest of animal and plants evolve so much for evolution side?

Or sharks, for that matter?
No. Your argument does not hold, for the simple reason that those creatures are flourishing in their niches. Change in environment may change the species. Look for genetic comparisons of your insects to other insects, to begin with.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Queensryche - Spool Lyrics

Turn another turn...

Turn another turn, sp00L...

I think therefore I am, familiar to most?
How long did we eat the seed planted by our host?
4 billion years between our ears
still hatred brings us many tears
Still we judge each other...
Why when we're only looking for the same high?

Grind time for old misconceptions.
Roll out new scenery as per suggestion.
Won't salute you. Won't desert you.
Won't be a prisoner of assumption anymore.

Does language define us? Is reality... words?
How far do we appear to be...
is the measure of... scope. But...
with our junkie soul, we face the need,
of nature's planned dependency.
Don't hold contempt for ecstasy
just... mourn the dead... on the (national) screen,
mourn the dead... on the screen, mourn the dead...
on the screen, mourn the dead... while they scream!!!

Grind time for old misconceptions.
Roll out new scenery as per suggestion.
Won't salute you. Won't desert you.

sp00L
Turn another turn!
Turn another turn!
sp00L
Turn another turn!

Don't need persuading by the status quo.

We can make changes.
If we open up we'll see... the history they sell us
holds the structure firm, reinforce the mold.
We need to strip it all away....
and let the sp00L turn, turn,
another turn,
another turn.
Watch it turn, watch it turn. What we'll learn.

Grind time for old misconceptions.
Roll out new scenery as per suggestion.
Won't salute you. Won't desert you.

sp00L
Turn another turn!
Turn another turn!
sp00L
Turn another turn!

Push away what they're selling me,
realize what we need to be.
Focus on a strategy to
open up our minds and then,
together... turn another turn.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

There is an obscure and not often discussed section of scientific research that deals with old things...realy realy old. Have you heard of OOPART

Out Of Place ARTifacts

In various museums etc around the world we have clay tablets with pictures on from early egypt. We can measure these as 3000 4000 5000 years ago.

There are also two known objects that dont belong to the established time line. One is a piece of what looks like steel pipe with bulges and shapes in it but the problem is that this thing is poking out of a bit of coal. It was dug up in a coal mine and luckily the person who found it didnt break it right out of the piece it was in.

How old is coal... well it varies depending on the location. coal is basically formed by trees and other metter being buried by rocks dirt etc, probably a volcano blows and great piles of rock, pumice,dirt and rubbish rained down on the local forest, and great pressure being put on it for a few 10's of thousands of years.

The other is piece of what looks like a very small chain, poking out of a piece of compacted "soft" rock. dug up from a test well about 600 yards down.

these objects dont fit any known time line. so it sort of leaves the possibility for wild theories to emerge... and there have been a few. but if you think seriously for a few moments they should not even exist because as far as we know the technology to create them didnt exist back that far.

These have puzzled me for many years... and always will. they defy explination

So, give us a reference. One with pictures is preferred. Otherwise, believing that it's anything extrodinary is purely faith based and I'm not feeling it.

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TEAM
LL

So, give us a reference. One with pictures is preferred. Otherwise, believing that it's anything extrodinary is purely faith based and I'm not feeling it.

Of the so-called artifacts? Yes, I have the same question.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

So, give us a reference. One with pictures is preferred. Otherwise, believing that it's anything extrodinary is purely faith based and I'm not feeling it.

Of the so-called artifacts? Yes, I have the same question.

Besides, this OOPART may be part of the larger wHOfARTed organization, which is never to be trusted, based on their s.b.d. tactics. :)

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

So, give us a reference. One with pictures is preferred. Otherwise, believing that it's anything extrodinary is purely faith based and I'm not feeling it.

Believe me Sleestak I also have pondered this for quite a few years. I am not one to simply "believe" something because someone mouths off about it.

The piece I saw is in a private holding and I doubt it will appear as a web page, although I may be wrong by now. It was 1979.

Sleestak- A least you do show an appropriate level of reserve. This is good
I feel the same and have learnt to be more cautious with the various materials that are ...displayed.

I am one to demand I can kick the tires and touch the artifact or see the equipment and the test running in real time before me. It means much inconvenience at times but it rapidly sorts the good from the not.
I have not accepted photos or web sites as any form of evidence for a long long time, I regard them as possible candidates for providing further investigation.
as you can see... typical these days

LOL, don't lick that frog.

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TEAM
LL

U.S. Lags World in Grasp of Genetics and Acceptance of Evolution

Intelligent Design: An Ambiguous Assault on Evolution - You can follow the links on that page to part 2, 3, and 4

When I read these articles it suprised me that evolutionism isn't as widely accepted as I thought. There is just so much evidence for evolutionism and its all very logical. There is no evidence for intelligent design besides a book that mentions some fantasy as Chuck calls it.

Your thoughts?

Concerning evolution of Evolution v Religion in the USA. A generalism, and I do not generally talk in general terms!

It would appear that peoples faith in whatever they have chosen to believe, the larger intractable belief systems especially, has been rocked to the core by a blindingly obvious and powerful observation. There are many forms of faith which have risen and established themselves on the continent in a relatively short period of time giving rise to much conflict and intolleracnce. (Nothing new there then!)

This is sad in many ways as mankind needs some kind of guiding principles to show us how vital the relationships between every living thing on and including this Earth is, and indeed beyond this world, solar system galaxy etc.

This is predictable in evolutionary terms and manifests itself in the simple conflict for resources. Underlying all of these beliefs are much older systems which incorporate a deep and living respect for the environment which evolved out of necessity and experience, eg animism and earth religions found all over the world in various forms and which were victims to the arrogance of the invader. They were all but extinct, Native American reservations, Australian Aboriginal passification by force e.t.c e.t.c. However, perhaps the so called superior religions have missed the point. Lets face it the King James' version of the Bible wasn't the only tinkering that went down. What happened to the Gospel according to St Thomas then?

Lessons from these effective belief systems appear to be pervasive in the developing understanding, both scientifically and religiously and deserve attention recognition and respect.



However, a blind faith in the face of the insurmountable evidence will appear in time to be futile and if unchecked will be disasterous.

Faith? my backside. Unfortunatley the stubborn gene is all to inherrant and as mankind appears to loose control as well as the plot so it is natural try to keep control of what he has in order to understand it and dominate it. It is a basic survival strategy. Predominantly its all about bums on seats and money in the coffers. Control is the desired outcome. Loose your faith base loose control therefore the religious leaders loose their wonderfull perks.(History reperating itself here)

As these unaccepting generations eventually become extinct such stubborn spiritual immaturity will stagnate and make way for those more adaptable offspring which will accept evolution into their belief system. (One can only hope that it is a peacefull transition and indeed that an homogonised system incorporating all the best and proven things will evolve. One can only hope)

Thus the already basterdised versions of christianity for one, will further fragment.
The only get out clause will be to claim that evolution is Gods way of making it all happen. We knew about it but chose not to say anything.

DISCUSS..................

Personally, does it really matter?
Consider the lillies!!
Hug a tree today man
Brief Rantings. Sinbadd. U.K.

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I imagine similar debates over the Earth being round or the Sun being at the center of the Solar System.

Good thing their's no burning at the stake to worry about anymore. Much easier to discuss.





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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

To all of you who really, truely believe, why don't you just go to him now.
No need to wait !


(More flames for me I suppose).

Our ape-man, who evolved on earth, hallowed be thy beast... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Christians and atheists start a calmer dialogue:


By Jane Lampman, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor Thu May 10, 4:00 AM ET

Salem, Mass. - Wednesday night on ABC-TV, two televangelists took on nonbelievers from the Rational Response Squad in a bid to prove the existence of God (see "Nightline Face Off" on ABCNews.com).

The TV polemics come in the wake of a rash of bestselling books by atheists challenging religion. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens, among others, go beyond questioning God to charge that religion is a plague that needs to be eliminated. Their vehemence, some suggest, is in response to Chris­tian attacks on evolution and stem-cell research.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070510/ts_csm/cbelief_1




.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Ugh, these titles really irk me:

"Intelligent Design: An Ambiguous Assault on Evolution"

They hint as if the notion of Design (note the captial 'D') is something new by Revealed Creationists or by evolution "atheists" alike. Both sides reduce it to something black and white and suspect the other of using it as a new ploy vehicle.

Most people are so programmed that any discussion of this must be based on revealed religion. Even most atheists (atheism = anti-theism) are guilty.

Intelligent Design has nothing to do with religion nor is it the new "fad" that the media is trying to make it out to be. It is not Creation vs evolution.

I guess you could me an "agnostic deist", I suppose. It would be warm and comforting to know that there was Intelligence behind Nature, but I would need directly observed and measurable evidence (science) for it. Maybe one day it will be found, who knows. If it is found, it will be through the lens of a telescope or microscope and not through something like fables (religion). Such evidence, if discovered, would appear the same to all viewers regardless of culture, language, species, and even planet of origin.

(One of the best works done in last few hundred years, which can be read in it's entirety online):

Age of Reason: Thomas Paine
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm

... [Accidentally posted the above msg twice] ...

I think that being compared to an ape is just too much for some people, so they then would compare Darwin to an ape

fables (religion)

They aren't 'fables'. They aren't even 'stories'. They are letters written by real people to real people giving an account as to what they had witnessed... Religion is about pleasing God in the hopes of attaining His promise of eternal life... Some get it and some don't, either way, I'll be seeing you all on the other side... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

fables (religion)

They aren't 'fables'. They aren't even 'stories'. They are letters written by real people to real people giving an account as to what they had witnessed... Religion is about pleasing God in the hopes of attaining His promise of eternal life... Some get it and some don't, either way, I'll be seeing you all on the other side... ;)

No doubt, they were written by real people, unless the apes wrote them, but the word of god(s), hmmm.

How the heck does anyone know what is pleasing to god, any god ?

I don't understand your confusion, with 14 billion years of experiance of being dead do you really think it's going to be different the second time around ?

Just in case you don't understand that bit, you are either alive or dead, there are no other options.

BTW your grasp of english is quite superior.

We must continue to bang heads, it's good fun.