Well spoken Chuck!

Through archaic history, religion is a strong selection for group survival. This is due to the strong societal duties it instills. Look at how the fanatical muslims have more than a toe-hold on the middle east - they keep blowing themselves up along with their hated enemy, but replace their numbers faster than they thin them out. Theirs is a dark age rationale and culture that uses the weapons of the space age. The other peaceful muslims throughout the world are very uncomfortable about all this chaos I'm sure, and how it unfairly reflects on them, simply because they share the larger part of their religion. But I'm also sure that if muslim religion everywhere was banned in an effort to stop the few radicals, then all muslims everywhere would band together to fight for their freedom of religion - this is the groupism religion is famous for.

Now, in the space age, religion generally hampers free thought and progress - look at stem-cell research being stifled because it is 'against god'. I don't see stem-cell research labs being scorched off the map by divine lightning! But when Bush decided he wanted Iraqi oil, well all he had to spew out was 'god is on OUR side' (despite Allah seeming to be quite the victor on 9/11)and then most aallll of the military were frothed up and willing to go to war for their president and their god! When the truth is that it's only for oil.

Frightening, what a few key words can accomplish, isn't it?

---

An MP3 by Monty Python that helps me consider our situation:

http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/galaxy.mp3


For the MP3 challenged:

ARTIST: Monty Python
TITLE: The Galaxy Song
Lyrics and Chords


[Meaning of Life, the]

[ Adim7 = ]

{Spoken, loosely}
Whenever life get you down, Mrs. Brown
And things seem hard or tough
And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft
And you feel that you've had quite enu-hu-hu-huuuuff

/ Adim7 A / A7 A / Adim7 A F# / B E7 /

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at 900 miles an hour
That's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned
A sun that is the source of all our power
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour
Of the galaxy we call the Milky Way

/ A Amaj7 A6 A / A A6 E7 - / - Bm7 E Bm7 / E7 Bm7 A - /
/ 1st / F#7 - Bm - / D Adim7 A F#7 / Bm E7 A - /

Our galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars
It's 100,000 light-years side-to-side
It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light-years thick
But out by us it's just 3000 light-years wide
We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point
We go round every 200 million years
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whiz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
Because there's bugger all down here on Earth

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Haha TikiPowered - that is so kewl!

I feel better already!

An MP3 by Monty Python that helps me consider our situation:

http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/galaxy.mp3


For the MP3 challenged:

ARTIST: Monty Python
TITLE: The Galaxy Song
Lyrics and Chords


[Meaning of Life, the]

[ Adim7 = ]

{Spoken, loosely}
Whenever life get you down, Mrs. Brown
And things seem hard or tough
And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft
And you feel that you've had quite enu-hu-hu-huuuuff

/ Adim7 A / A7 A / Adim7 A F# / B E7 /

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at 900 miles an hour
That's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned
A sun that is the source of all our power
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour
Of the galaxy we call the Milky Way

/ A Amaj7 A6 A / A A6 E7 - / - Bm7 E Bm7 / E7 Bm7 A - /
/ 1st / F#7 - Bm - / D Adim7 A F#7 / Bm E7 A - /

Our galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars
It's 100,000 light-years side-to-side
It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light-years thick
But out by us it's just 3000 light-years wide
We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point
We go round every 200 million years
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whiz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
Because there's bugger all down here on Earth

---

At your service milady.

:D

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

I posted some quotes from a link from you which I think are timely

I like to ask questions but this offends some people - well it seems most here that prefer to be protectors against questions. Do you think TikiPowered that we will find aliens that we can like, or would we hate them as much as we see ourselves to in Iran/ Iraq etc?

For example would we attempt to exterminate aliens as we killed 6 million jews? - or would they be better advised to remove us as being any threat?

Science and maths at least is easy, but we have inbuilt hatred and this is a great obstacle to us - at least Monty Python can communicate this into comedy - perhaps that's the only saving grace for us?

What a pity we cant just concentrate on math and science and not war.



"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

- Galileo



If I have ever made any valuable discoveries, it has been owing more to patient attention, than to any other talent.

- Isaac Newton



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.

- Leonardo da Vinci



He that can have patience can have what he will.

- Benjamin Franklin



To give a satisfactory decision as to the truth it is necessary to be rather an arbitrator than a party to the dispute.

- Aristotle



Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.

- Archimedes



A time will come when men will stretch out their eyes. They should see planets like our Earth.

- Christopher Wren



Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.

- Arthur C. Clarke"

At your service milady.

:D

---

I believe it to be a coin toss, Penny.

Evolution has molded us to survive by any means neccessary. It seems most wars are generated by power struggles. (Greed.) We fail to recognise each other as brothers and sisters and fall back on prehistoric rivalries and/or ethnic/religious differences to justify our small-minded actions. Plants and animals suffer at our hands as well - Our oldest brothers and sisters.

Studying history is a real eye opener. I can see why many use it to justify current opinions and actions. Problem is that history is written by the victor and can be far from the truth. History doesn't have to weigh so heavily on us but it does on all sides, perpetuating itself through generations. It is a real pity.

I can only hope that any visitors would be kind hearted and observe carefully before making solid contact. If I could recommend anything to visitors it would be to implement a firm "Star Trek - Prime directive" when dealing with primitive civilizations such as our own. With any luck the distances that seperates us serve as a time barrier for the traveling beings to attain a kind of enlightenment before being technically able to make the voyage.

Then again - if they travel only to harvest materials it could be ugly. Like a big ant colony swarming in to do as it pleases until the resources they seek are depleted. If I were they, looking down on our planet, I'm not sure what I'd think. Hopefully they have a sense of humor.

Perhaps they are already here. Observing... documenting... learning... Maybe they'll even find a nice person like yourself to contact and teach and accept instruction from. I can't think of a nicer candidate. Perhaps they guide us already.

I could go on forever but a storm is coming into the San Francisco Bay Area and I don't want to lose all this typing should the power fail. Perhaps it would be just as well.


Your friend,

~TikiPowered

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

That's a kind reply!

I think we should keep our ideas open on how aliens behave - what religion would they have, this is surely to get some peoples noses up. No Jesus in outer space or would there be? - and then what would that mean to us?

Anyway what works is what works - so I guess that principle will work here also.

Thanks for the reply :)

I believe it to be a coin toss, Penny.

Evolution has molded us to survive by any means neccessary. It seems most wars are generated by power struggles. (Greed.) We fail to recognise each other as brothers and sisters and fall back on prehistoric rivalries and/or ethnic/religious differences to justify our small-minded actions. Plants and animals suffer at our hands as well. Our oldest brothers and sisters.

Studying history is a real eye opener. I can see why many use it to justify current opinions and actions. Problem is that history is written by the victor and can be far from the truth. History doesn't have to weigh so heavily on us but it does on all sides, perpetuating itself through generations. It is a real pity.

I can only hope that any visitors would be kind hearted and observe carefully before making solid contact. If I could recommend anything to visitors it would be to implement a firm "Star Trek - Prime directive" when dealing with primitive civilizations such as our own. With any luck the distances that seperates us serve as a time barrier for the traveling beings to attain a kind of enlightenment before being technically able to make the voyage.

Then again - if they travel only to harvest materials it could be ugly. Like a big ant colony swarming in to do as it pleases until the resources they seek are depleted. If I were they, looking down on our planet, I'm not sure what I'd think. Hopefully they have a sense of humor.

Perhaps they are already here. Observing... documenting... learning... Maybe they'll even find a nice person like yourself to contact and teach and accept instruction from. I can't think of a nicer candidate.

Perhaps they guide us already.

---

Religion...

I've been enjoying the new surge in Religious studies and TV shows generated by "The Da Vinci Code", by Dan Brown. Great book! I highly recommend!

"Angels and Demons", which is an earlier work of Dan's was much better, IMHO.

I hear he's coming out with a new book about the Freemasons creating the Mormon religion.


Please don't anyone get mad at me! I dread discussing Religion with the general public!

:>


~TikiPowered

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Is it possible that we are already on our second or third attempt??

What i mean is that suppose we virtually wiped ourselves out around 1,000,000 years ago and this is our second attempt at civilisation?

Lets say the oldest homo sapiens skeletal remains are about 150,000-180,000 years old, and that homo-erectus was with us at about 1.8 million years it seems feasible (with this large gap) that something may have 'happened'. Homo-sapien bones are generally thinner and dont hang around as long as 'other species' and modern civilisation seems to have developed very rapidly < 10,000 years.

If we wiped ourselves out (bio/nuclear war etc) in the next 100 years, assuming a very small number of survivors, how much of our technology would survive if any? Would we regress for several millenia?

Is it seems feasible that this may not be the first time the human race has been down this road?

---

Belief gets in the way of learning

Enigma, interestingly I saw something on tv the other day that 2 distinct genes first appeared in humans around 30,000 years ago (if I remember correctly) that seem to have a function of producing intelligence. The point of the program I viewed was that this coincided with humanity advancing into civiliation. One gene is apparently present in %80 of us. The other is present in about 30% of us. I'm sorry I don't have any links or references to more information for you. Perhaps there are a few others reading this that viewed the same program and can give more information.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Professor Francis Harry Compton Crick has a theory called "Directed Panspermia" that is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crick

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

That's cool

DNA structure wan't easy to discover and crystal imaging by x-rays really took thought power.

These guys in the link are real heros.

Professor Francis Harry Compton Crick has a theory called "Directed Panspermia" that is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crick

---

That's cool

DNA structure wan't easy to discover and crystal imaging by x-rays really took thought power.

These guys in the link are real heros.

Professor Francis Harry Compton Crick has a theory called "Directed Panspermia" that is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crick

Being a "woman" Penny, I would have thought you's want to give credit where it's due. Let's not forget that Crick and Watson actually stole the work of Rosalind Franklin.

---

Reality Internet Personality

oops - sorry I really do apologise for giving respect not due - a good post ES99!

Guess it just shows that scientists steal work from others!

That's cool

DNA structure wan't easy to discover and crystal imaging by x-rays really took thought power.

These guys in the link are real heros.

Professor Francis Harry Compton Crick has a theory called "Directed Panspermia" that is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crick

Being a "woman" Penny, I would have thought you's want to give credit where it's due. Let's not forget that Crick and Watson actually stole the work of Rosalind Franklin.

---

Thanks ES99,

I had no idea.

The directed panspermia theory remains.




.

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

ES99 has in the link this quote

"Whereas women were not allowed into the senior common room, King's had two dining rooms, one for men, and one for men and women:"

Men and their clubs, how similar is that to this forum?

Still the effort of research into DNA is extraordinary, however gained, it is excellent. The two strand model started off in conjecture from memory, and a three strand one was also proposed. Measurement based on crystal refraction empowered one with greater credibility

Not too hard as two sexes, right/left etc are common that duals exists more so than triples. Actually this is apparent also in maths = x+j*y is a dual number, triples or higher don't get used. There is no way to show x+jy+qz for example has usefull properties for a hypothesised q

Thanks ES99,

I had no idea.

The directed panspermia theory remains.




.

---

The 'Star Trek' idea is one that is older than the show itself. It is indeed a good one. I hope to hell that we are being sequestered by a 'prime directive', although I wish to hell that the time of contact is very soon. Either way, it's a shitter though.

What would we do if we were advanced and went out to visit other civilizations? Wouldn't we help them through their nuclear age to reach the interstellar trvel age?

Would we rape and exploit all we could from M class planets? If it didn't have anything more intelligent than the chimp, we probably would.I'm pretty sure we would let a stone age civilization be, however.

For myself, I can't help feeling gypped - having been born waaay to early in history. I should have liked being in an age of advanced stellar exploration instead.

---

Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Haha Chuck that's true

That we rape and pillage and abuse is in all our records of history - we cannot be better than this!

If we travelled into space and settled on a distant planet their people would be fat on coca cola hamburgers and kentucky fried (might be a bit reptalian though)

If they came here I'd say shoot the lot of us as we are useless - war of the worlds had this theme, also some others. But we are useless, that's certain enough.

The idea of "dooing good in space" is hard to see when we dont do good back here - it's a bit idle even as a fantasy.

Still Kirk and Spock never fail to make me laugh!

The 'Star Trek' idea is one that is older than the show itself. It is indeed a good one. I hope to hell that we are being sequestered by a 'prime directive', although I wish to hell that the time of contact is very soon. Either way, it's a shitter though.

What would we do if we were advanced and went out to visit other civilizations? Wouldn't we help them through their nuclear age to reach the interstellar trvel age?

Would we rape and exploit all we could from M class planets? If it didn't have anything more intelligent than the chimp, we probably would.I'm pretty sure we would let a stone age civilization be, however.

For myself, I can't help feeling gypped - having been born waaay to early in history. I should have liked being in an age of advanced stellar exploration instead.

---

Rob, i though that extracting DNA from ancient bones is not an 'exact science' DNA within fossilized bones have many problems of purity etc, which may make it quite difficult to isolate sepecific genes.....

Even if this is so, 30,000 years still seems like a fair while to develop civilisation and technology considering what has been achieved in the last 10,000 years.

---

Belief gets in the way of learning

You need to ask a DNA extraction expert about that, Enigma, instead of assuming what the problems might or might not be.

It does seem clear, however, that the more DNA samples you have, the more exact and refined the result your extractions is going to be.

---

Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.