"Why classic SETI@home is closing down and other facts of life" by Matt Lebofsky

Author	Message
Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 209779 - Posted: 11 Dec 2005, 0:27:02 UTC Last modified: 11 Dec 2005, 0:28:01 UTC Since a lot of people post questions and rants here in the Cafe about the close down of Seti Classic and other things, I'll post Matt's explanation from this thread over in Numbers. It really should have been a post in the READ ME thread, but as it's all cluttered up, I start this thread instead. But Matt says: I keep seeing in these forum threads various valid complaints. Here are some reasons off the top of my head that SETI@home Classic is shutting down, and other facts of life that may very well address your particular concern: 1. SETI@home Classic has no funding at this point. Hasn't had it for years now. Costs about $500,000/year at a minimum to run the thing. SETI@home as we know it now is coasting on fumes until (hopefully) more funding somehow appears. BOINC has funding. Therefore, putting SETI@home on BOINC has given it at least some life in the past two years, and is really the only chance for any kind of future. 2. SETI@home Classic was supposed to be a 3 or 4 year project to begin with. So it's well past it's proposed lifespan with no money added to keep it going. 3. The science in SETI@home Classic is basically over. We collected more than enough data with the current instrument. We have a new data recorder close to finished and a new BOINC client will be in the works to analyze this data. To keep Classic going would mean compiling a new Classic client to analyze this data. It's been a loooong time since a new Classic client has been built. The code is stale, and the build machines are ancient and painful to use (if they even exist anymore). 4. The SETI@home Classic backend is a tangled mess. There have been many problems over the years, most of which were invisible to the participants. None of these problems were fatal to the project or its science, but have resulted in an obnoxious web of ridiculous dependencies, confusing configurations, and unweildy databases. I am practically drooling dreaming of day when we get to turn all that stuff off and be done with it already. The BOINC backend is sooooo much easier to deal with. 5. The current crises are just par for the course in the history of our SETI project and public resource computing. Things break, deep breaths are taken, and they get fixed eventually. This isn't good for making our participants happy of course, but we do our best with what we got and so far our user base has stuck with us through the painful periods (thank you!!!). 6. BOINC was written so you can connect to other projects when there are server issues with a specific project. This is a good thing. SETI@home Classic has no such ability. 7. BOINC credit, while not perfect (though we're working on that), is much more fair in that it represents actual work done, and is valid between projects which do all kinds of different work. There is no way to translate Classic credit to BOINC credit, and so this will never happen. Classic credits will be noted in a separate field in a user profile (and will be eventually sync'ed up again after Classic shuts down). 8. Though I don't have any accurate numbers to back this up, I personally feel that so far SETI@home/BOINC has had more uptime on average than Classic. We had science database crashes every week at times back in the day, several whole weeks when we were down for database recovery or because somebody stole a cable, network bandwidth issues that brought us down for months. And these were just the public-facing downtime events (among but a few). 9. There is no tech support on staff. I end up with dozens of e-mails a day from people who figured out how to reach me. If I dealt with all these, that would occupy about 15-20% of my time. I don't have this time and neither does anybody else around here. Many of these e-mails go unaswered. Sad but true, and I personally find this painful but part of the big picture. 10. Yes, we can do better in the PR department. See #9 above. Don't have the staff or the money to add the staff. And it's not so easy to add news items to the page. I can't be bothered to go into detail why. I leave this as an exercise for the reader to figure out why. 11. The staff is small. Me and Jeff are continually up to our necks dealing with everything. We've both been here working on SETI long before SETI@home came around, so we both are well versed in every aspect of the "big picture" around here. Bob, the main database guy, actually only works half time. Court is busy dealing with various long term network/systems projects that Jeff and I can't handle since we're diagnosing, debugging, programming, or maybe actually getting science done. David and Rom (and other various programmers) strictly work on BOINC code. Eric works overtime on other non-SETI projects when he's not building the next SETI@home client. Dan, the project director, is spending a lot of time building spectrometers for other projects because that's where the money is. Outside of current academics (Kevin and Josh) working on other applications of SETI data, and students helping Dan build hardware that's it here at the lab. No administrative staff, no tech writers. When it comes time to fill out a new grant proposal, we all drop everything and work on that, for example. 12. If anybody complains elsewhere about any of the above, please be kind and point them to this post. People have the right to be upset with us since they are kindly donating their resources to us. However, there is a lot of misinformation or misunderstanding about this project and I hope I cleared some of it up. Now I'm off to bed. Going to LA tomorrow. Be back Sunday night. - Matt ____________ -- BOINC/SETI@home network/web/science/development -- Get the inside scoop: Matt's Unofficial SETI Log ID: 209779 ·

Siran d'Vel'nahr Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 23 May 99 Posts: 7379 Credit: 44,181,323 RAC: 238	Message 209965 - Posted: 11 Dec 2005, 3:53:08 UTC Thanks Fuzzy. Let's hope that this does some good. Maybe you should start a thread on NC as well. There's a lot of whining and naysaying there too.... (-:< >:-) CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\// Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker "Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath ID: 209965 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 209980 - Posted: 11 Dec 2005, 4:06:08 UTC - in response to Message 209965. Thanks Fuzzy. Let's hope that this does some good. Maybe you should start a thread on NC as well. There's a lot of whining and naysaying there too.... (-:< >:-) You're wellcome! But it's already there, stickied and all! From Matt himself!!! I just missed it over here, because we get our share of the questions here too! "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 209980 ·

Boo Rody Send message Joined: 16 Apr 00 Posts: 7 Credit: 9,759 RAC: 0	Message 210195 - Posted: 11 Dec 2005, 11:40:40 UTC Well guys, I gave it a try and I find that BOINC is one major pain in the backside. I am sure you all have been working hard on this project but it is an absolute nightmare for someone that just wants to donate some computer time to your project. You would have probably been a LOT better off working out the problems with SETI rather than over-engeneering a very complicated user interface like BOINC. It all really sounds good but it just doesn't work for the user that want's to allow you to work on thier resources and doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to figure out why nothing works or spend hours doing work arounds to force it to work. Oh well, I really wish you all the best but I, for one, must pull out of your program after years and years of contributing computer time. I truly wish you good fortune in your venture or project but do yourselves a favor and dump the BOINC routine, it sucks! Try to remember the KISS principle and since it is obvious that your project is far from simple, keep it as simple as you possible can for the user that is offering thier resources freely. Respectfully and with the most sincere hopes that you find a way to dump BOINC in favor of something usable I bid you adue. Keep on truckin'! ID: 210195 ·

Daniel Michel Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 2 Feb 04 Posts: 14925 Credit: 1,378,607 RAC: 6	Message 210236 - Posted: 11 Dec 2005, 12:52:40 UTC thanks for the explanation Matt...scientific research and discovery requires much patience...particularly when you are operating on a shoestring budget...the science means alot to me...so i'm going to wait patiently until these difficulties have passed. PROUD TO BE TFFE! ID: 210236 ·

Daryl Hutchins Send message Joined: 1 Feb 00 Posts: 1 Credit: 6,573,024 RAC: 9	Message 211576 - Posted: 12 Dec 2005, 15:56:18 UTC - in response to Message 210195. Boinc works fine ... other projects are bopping along sweetly. The problem is with the Seti project not receiving finished work when it should. Instead of whining and threatening to take your business elsewhere, why not just turn off new work for Seti and let another project have more processor time until the boys at Seti fix the problem? They always have before ... I'm sure they will again. d.. Well guys, I gave it a try and I find that BOINC is one major pain in the backside. I am sure you all have been working hard on this project but it is an absolute nightmare for someone that just wants to donate some computer time to your project. You would have probably been a LOT better off working out the problems with SETI rather than over-engeneering a very complicated user interface like BOINC. It all really sounds good but it just doesn't work for the user that want's to allow you to work on thier resources and doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to figure out why nothing works or spend hours doing work arounds to force it to work. Oh well, I really wish you all the best but I, for one, must pull out of your program after years and years of contributing computer time. I truly wish you good fortune in your venture or project but do yourselves a favor and dump the BOINC routine, it sucks! Try to remember the KISS principle and since it is obvious that your project is far from simple, keep it as simple as you possible can for the user that is offering thier resources freely. Respectfully and with the most sincere hopes that you find a way to dump BOINC in favor of something usable I bid you adue. Keep on truckin'! Daryl..___________________________________ Melbourne, Australia Sol 3 ID: 211576 ·

Paul E C Smith Send message Joined: 15 Mar 02 Posts: 8 Credit: 98,670 RAC: 0	Message 211840 - Posted: 12 Dec 2005, 20:25:12 UTC - in response to Message 209779. Since a lot of people post questions and rants here in the Cafe about the close down of Seti Classic and other things, I'll post Matt's explanation from this thread over in Numbers. It really should have been a post in the READ ME thread, but as it's all cluttered up, I start this thread instead. But Matt says: I keep seeing in these forum threads various valid complaints. Here are some reasons off the top of my head that SETI@home Classic is shutting down, and other facts of life that may very well address your particular concern: 1. SETI@home Classic has no funding at this point. Hasn't had it for years now. Costs about $500,000/year at a minimum to run the thing. SETI@home as we know it now is coasting on fumes until (hopefully) more funding somehow appears. BOINC has funding. Therefore, putting SETI@home on BOINC has given it at least some life in the past two years, and is really the only chance for any kind of future. 2. SETI@home Classic was supposed to be a 3 or 4 year project to begin with. So it's well past it's proposed lifespan with no money added to keep it going. 3. The science in SETI@home Classic is basically over. We collected more than enough data with the current instrument. We have a new data recorder close to finished and a new BOINC client will be in the works to analyze this data. To keep Classic going would mean compiling a new Classic client to analyze this data. It's been a loooong time since a new Classic client has been built. The code is stale, and the build machines are ancient and painful to use (if they even exist anymore). 4. The SETI@home Classic backend is a tangled mess. There have been many problems over the years, most of which were invisible to the participants. None of these problems were fatal to the project or its science, but have resulted in an obnoxious web of ridiculous dependencies, confusing configurations, and unweildy databases. I am practically drooling dreaming of day when we get to turn all that stuff off and be done with it already. The BOINC backend is sooooo much easier to deal with. 5. The current crises are just par for the course in the history of our SETI project and public resource computing. Things break, deep breaths are taken, and they get fixed eventually. This isn't good for making our participants happy of course, but we do our best with what we got and so far our user base has stuck with us through the painful periods (thank you!!!). 6. BOINC was written so you can connect to other projects when there are server issues with a specific project. This is a good thing. SETI@home Classic has no such ability. 7. BOINC credit, while not perfect (though we're working on that), is much more fair in that it represents actual work done, and is valid between projects which do all kinds of different work. There is no way to translate Classic credit to BOINC credit, and so this will never happen. Classic credits will be noted in a separate field in a user profile (and will be eventually sync'ed up again after Classic shuts down). 8. Though I don't have any accurate numbers to back this up, I personally feel that so far SETI@home/BOINC has had more uptime on average than Classic. We had science database crashes every week at times back in the day, several whole weeks when we were down for database recovery or because somebody stole a cable, network bandwidth issues that brought us down for months. And these were just the public-facing downtime events (among but a few). 9. There is no tech support on staff. I end up with dozens of e-mails a day from people who figured out how to reach me. If I dealt with all these, that would occupy about 15-20% of my time. I don't have this time and neither does anybody else around here. Many of these e-mails go unaswered. Sad but true, and I personally find this painful but part of the big picture. 10. Yes, we can do better in the PR department. See #9 above. Don't have the staff or the money to add the staff. And it's not so easy to add news items to the page. I can't be bothered to go into detail why. I leave this as an exercise for the reader to figure out why. 11. The staff is small. Me and Jeff are continually up to our necks dealing with everything. We've both been here working on SETI long before SETI@home came around, so we both are well versed in every aspect of the "big picture" around here. Bob, the main database guy, actually only works half time. Court is busy dealing with various long term network/systems projects that Jeff and I can't handle since we're diagnosing, debugging, programming, or maybe actually getting science done. David and Rom (and other various programmers) strictly work on BOINC code. Eric works overtime on other non-SETI projects when he's not building the next SETI@home client. Dan, the project director, is spending a lot of time building spectrometers for other projects because that's where the money is. Outside of current academics (Kevin and Josh) working on other applications of SETI data, and students helping Dan build hardware that's it here at the lab. No administrative staff, no tech writers. When it comes time to fill out a new grant proposal, we all drop everything and work on that, for example. 12. If anybody complains elsewhere about any of the above, please be kind and point them to this post. People have the right to be upset with us since they are kindly donating their resources to us. However, there is a lot of misinformation or misunderstanding about this project and I hope I cleared some of it up. Now I'm off to bed. Going to LA tomorrow. Be back Sunday night. - Matt ____________ -- BOINC/SETI@home network/web/science/development -- Get the inside scoop: Matt's Unofficial SETI Log I realy appreciate Matt taking the time to explain these things. Oh why is this not posted on the Seti@home main page where it belongs? If the majority of fellow Seticrunchers knew this and had been informed in such a lucid and sympathetic manner, then just perhaps there would not be so much complaining (I've been guilty too of this). So come on you guys and gals over there in Berkeley, give Matts message the prominance it deserves, it certainly smoothed my ruffled feathers, and I'm certain it would do the same for many others. Good luck in clearing this snafu and many thanks for all your hard work. Moulinsmith ID: 211840 ·

Fuzzy Hollynoodles Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0	Message 211976 - Posted: 12 Dec 2005, 22:17:16 UTC - in response to Message 211840. Last modified: 12 Dec 2005, 22:19:06 UTC I realy appreciate Matt taking the time to explain these things. Oh why is this not posted on the Seti@home main page where it belongs? .... Moulinsmith There actually are a couple of threads over there: Why classic SETI@home is closing - Matt Lebofsky An update from Matt...... And, to quote from one of the posts: *"When you read the whole article, Matt is sounding as tired as some of the folks posting here."* And my guess about Matt posting it here on this board is, that most of the Classic crunchers come here and complain. "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ID: 211976 ·

Jeannie House Send message Joined: 25 May 99 Posts: 3 Credit: 4,357 RAC: 0	Message 212044 - Posted: 12 Dec 2005, 23:12:39 UTC Thanks, Matt. that answered my questions. Kudos to you and all who do help and assist. Take Care and God Bless. Jhouse ID: 212044 ·

Norman E. Rondeau Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 1 Credit: 983,812 RAC: 2	Message 212317 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 2:17:55 UTC - in response to Message 211840. Nice read. Very informative. Thank you for putting it out here. I remain a dedicated SETI user under BOINC. It seems that there is a bit of a learning curve to BOINC. It may be part of what puts some people off. My co-worker, for example, could not figure out how to set Preferences. I showed him what to do (created a tutorial in Word) and he has not complained since! I sure hope the fantastic SETI folks get things back on track and progress from there. The big payoff on this (finding extra-terrestrial life) is mind blowing. To be part of this is very worthwhile and worth suffering through the bad times. Thanks to Matt for the lucid explanation. ID: 212317 ·

KWSN-GMC-Peeper of the Castle Anthrax Send message Joined: 28 May 99 Posts: 274 Credit: 6,936,182 RAC: 0	Message 212393 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 3:06:07 UTC I would hope everybody realizes that our chances of actually hearing any signals from another star, using this antenna buried at the bottom of the atmosphere are virtually nill. They'd have to be beaming 100 megawatt signals right at us. An orbiting array or better yet one on the farside of the moon would have a much better chance. We're also absolutely killing the data crunching..there's WAY more SAH members than needed. I would encourage everybody to devote at least 2/3 of your crunching time to other more valuable projects. As a member of SAH from the very earliest days, I don't say this in any way intending to put the project down, but DO realize the aim was always to develop and validate distributed computing, not to find ET. If you don't touch it, you can't break it. ; ID: 212393 ·

TimC Send message Joined: 4 Mar 02 Posts: 15 Credit: 1,765,897 RAC: 0	Message 212505 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 5:18:18 UTC Last modified: 13 Dec 2005, 5:19:26 UTC I've officially abandoned SETI in hopes that Rosetta will keep me busy. What's up with the project that only has 21 users? Is it a hoax? ID: 212505 ·

Shiv Send message Joined: 15 Nov 05 Posts: 7 Credit: 592 RAC: 0	Message 212750 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 12:27:42 UTC I've been a long time SETI member but closed down my account and switched to BOINC about a month ago because I couldn't figure out how to tranfer my credits etc. BOINC is more complicated but if what Matt says is correct, I guess there was no option but to make this switch. My only grouse is - why can't things be made simpler for non-geeks like me? I'm a member of Rosetta also and I know my computer is doing stuff for both SETI and Rosetta, but I have no idea of what is going on, how credits are computed etc. I guess I'll just have to muddle along. But I won't give up. I don't believe in UFOs, crop circles, alien abductions etc. but I do know that one day we will establish contact. Surely the human race is not the only rational (??????) race in creation! ID: 212750 ·

Prognatus Send message Joined: 6 Jul 99 Posts: 1600 Credit: 391,546 RAC: 0	Message 212817 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 13:52:46 UTC - in response to Message 212393. Last modified: 13 Dec 2005, 13:54:47 UTC [...] but DO realize the aim was always to develop and validate distributed computing, not to find ET. This is not true. The aim of SETI@Home was to help finding ET through a better model than using a few big computers. Hence, distributed computing. ID: 212817 ·

KWSN-GMC-Peeper of the Castle Anthrax Send message Joined: 28 May 99 Posts: 274 Credit: 6,936,182 RAC: 0	Message 212832 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 14:14:15 UTC - in response to Message 212817. [...] but DO realize the aim was always to develop and validate distributed computing, not to find ET. This is not true. The aim of SETI@Home was to help finding ET through a better model than using a few big computers. Hence, distributed computing. Not with this antenna my friend. If you don't touch it, you can't break it. ; ID: 212832 ·

W-K 666 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19062 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67	Message 212941 - Posted: 13 Dec 2005, 15:45:21 UTC - in response to Message 212750. I've been a long time SETI member but closed down my account and switched to BOINC about a month ago because I couldn't figure out how to tranfer my credits etc. BOINC is more complicated but if what Matt says is correct, I guess there was no option but to make this switch. My only grouse is - why can't things be made simpler for non-geeks like me? I'm a member of Rosetta also and I know my computer is doing stuff for both SETI and Rosetta, but I have no idea of what is going on, how credits are computed etc. I guess I'll just have to muddle along. But I won't give up. I don't believe in UFOs, crop circles, alien abductions etc. but I do know that one day we will establish contact. Surely the human race is not the only rational (??????) race in creation! To recover password of seti classic If you have access to your Classic Seti files then open 'user_info.sah' in notepad, or similar, and copy the contents into the form below, in step 3, to recover your password. If not, and you can remember your Classic Seti email address, even if it is not your current address, then install Seti Classic again. Use you old email address to get relevant information. Stop Seti Classic and follow instructions in step 1. Paste the contents of user_info.sah into box from your Classic SETI folder on this page to extract your Classic password. With that information, your BOINC account key and your current email address, you can go to this page and link the Classic to the BOINC. Use the top section for your Classic seti email address and the third section on this form for the BOINC information and the classic password. If you need the classic program a link for version 3.08 is here (direct download link), ID: 212941 ·

Shiv Send message Joined: 15 Nov 05 Posts: 7 Credit: 592 RAC: 0	Message 213827 - Posted: 14 Dec 2005, 10:03:10 UTC - in response to Message 212941. I've been a long time SETI member but closed down my account and switched to BOINC about a month ago because I couldn't figure out how to tranfer my credits etc. BOINC is more complicated but if what Matt says is correct, I guess there was no option but to make this switch. My only grouse is - why can't things be made simpler for non-geeks like me? I'm a member of Rosetta also and I know my computer is doing stuff for both SETI and Rosetta, but I have no idea of what is going on, how credits are computed etc. I guess I'll just have to muddle along. But I won't give up. I don't believe in UFOs, crop circles, alien abductions etc. but I do know that one day we will establish contact. Surely the human race is not the only rational (??????) race in creation! To recover password of seti classic If you have access to your Classic Seti files then open 'user_info.sah' in notepad, or similar, and copy the contents into the form below, in step 3, to recover your password. If not, and you can remember your Classic Seti email address, even if it is not your current address, then install Seti Classic again. Use you old email address to get relevant information. Stop Seti Classic and follow instructions in step 1. Paste the contents of user_info.sah into box from your Classic SETI folder on this page to extract your Classic password. With that information, your BOINC account key and your current email address, you can go to this page and link the Classic to the BOINC. Use the top section for your Classic seti email address and the third section on this form for the BOINC information and the classic password. If you need the classic program a link for version 3.08 is here (direct download link), ID: 213827 ·

Shiv Send message Joined: 15 Nov 05 Posts: 7 Credit: 592 RAC: 0	Message 213828 - Posted: 14 Dec 2005, 10:05:59 UTC - in response to Message 213827. Thanks a million, Andy. Will try it out tonight. Thanks again and regards, Shiv ID: 213828 ·

Prognatus Send message Joined: 6 Jul 99 Posts: 1600 Credit: 391,546 RAC: 0	Message 214623 - Posted: 15 Dec 2005, 8:36:35 UTC - in response to Message 212832. Not with this antenna my friend. Do you have an antenna? Hmmm... Maybe we've already found ET then? ;o) ID: 214623 ·

Robyn L. Brown Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 7 Credit: 55 RAC: 0	Message 214900 - Posted: 15 Dec 2005, 19:16:27 UTC I've waited through this transition period from Classic to BOINC, hoping the software and all would eventually smooth out. But the truth is, it's been months and months and apparently nothing has improved, and it doesn't appear as if it will anytime soon. SETI Classic may have had its problems at their end, but the beauty of it was that EVERYone could use it. Even those who wanted with all their heart to contribute to their science, but aren't science or tech savvy. It brought everyone together to contribute to a common vision in a very elegant and simple way. I understand and sympathize with the funding problems, and have always been aware of the struggle at their end of the project. But hopefully they understand the frustration and disillusionment at our end, too? Since I started running SETI Classic years ago, I've burned out 3 processors and 4 or 5 power supplies, because I wasn't aware that SETI would use 100% of my PC's resources all the time. (They really should have featured a warning about that, in clear terms, right near the download link.) Not to mention the contribution to the power bill. It hasn't just been a time contribution, but an indirect financial one, as well. (And I'm not rich, or I would help with their funding.) So all those work credits meant more to me than just the symbolism. And yet the full credits for SETI Classic work have STILL not been added into all our accounts, despite the many months it's been promised that they would. All I wanted was the stupid certificate before I bid farewell (for now) to the project, but even that is problematic. Wish I had an answer for the SETI crew, or for us, but BOINC doesn't appear to be IT right now. It seems like a lot of people are leaving, and despite the years of devotion I had for this project, I've lost faith in the whole situation, and worse, interest. The boards alone discourage me. With Classic we were united. With BOINC we've become divided. Why is it when humans actually get something right, they have to go and muck it up? ID: 214900 ·

©2024 University of California

SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.